Bow: Analysis of its problems and a way to improve it [Cooperative Thread]

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    • Bow: Analysis of its problems and a way to improve it [Cooperative Thread]

      As a player that likes to play bows and ranged weapons in this type of games, I feel that bow needs a bit of love to improve its kit and variability. Right now, bows are overshadowed by other ranged weapons that do more damage and give more utility to the team.
      This thread will try to analyze their advantages and weakness and propose changes to improve their kit. I remember this is my own opinion as a player, so I'd like that other players gives their point of view to update the thread and change it with new ideas and thoughts.

      P.S: I'm not english, if there is a misswriting or something, feel free to share it with me to fix it.

      1st Skill (Q hotkey)
      • Multishot: Nothing to complain about this skill. It is a good AoE damage skill.
      • Deadly Shot: This skill is just not funny to use. You have to stand still to cast it for a very small reward, it doesn't offer anything attractive to the bow's kit and get outscaled by the next ability (in damage and mobility).
        With the new change (resistances shred) in the future patch, it gets a bit better, but still not enough.
        Change:
        1. It is needed that this ability is not a castable one. Doesn't fit and doesn't synergize with most of the other abilities.
        2. Piercing skill shot. [Treas]
      • Poisoned Arrow: One of the best skills. With 3 stacks it offers insane single target damage (and you don't have to cast it)
      Change ideas:
      1. Make them all autoattack modifier, becoming Bow an autoattack weapon. This modifiers improve other bow abilities.
      Multishot: +2 target per hit. Deadly Shot: +15% range (I suggest damage). Poisoned Arrow: DoT stackable on hit. [Nvs1980]
      Multishot change might be too poweful [Boedavildje]

      2nd Skill (W hotkey)
      • Explosive Arrows: Along with Multishot is a good AoE damage skill, useful in PvE to improve your damage. Its damage is decent as it is, but the ability might be more interesting with a tweak.
      • Frost Shot: This skill is very interesting as a mobility one; however, the W spot is filled with better options (more control, more damage...)
      • Speed Shot: It's a good solo skill, but maybe underwhealming. It has average damage and a decent movement speed buff to roam, but the attack speed buff doesn't feel strong enough in a game where the autoattacks are almost irrelevant.
        Change: It could be good with better autoattack options. Maybe make it a skill shot, but with increase damage.
      • Ray of Light: Another MVP skill. High skill cap with a high reward, it feels so good to hit this skill.
      Passive Skills
      • Slow Poison: Against players the slow is that small and that short, that doesn't feel like a useful passive.
        Change: Instead of applying the poison with every hit, make it to apply a stronger poison (like 30%) with a cooldown of X seconds or every X attacks.
      • Energetic: Standard energy regain skill.
      • Piercing Arrows: The only problem with this passive is that its duration is not long enough to maintain it if you are casting another skills. Maybe instead of 3s of duration, improve it to 4s.
      • Attack Speed: It has the same problem of Speed Shot (W), attack speed is underwhealming.
      3rd Skill (E hotkey)
      • Magic Arrow (Warbow): This is the common choice for player who likes to solo playing. It offers a good poke skillshot, with fair low CD and decent damage. This bow is good as it is with a focused playstyle.
      • Demon Arrow (Wailing Bow): This is the only option that is useful at ZvZ fights, it is a great high skill cap ability with a decent damage that can be used with another linear CC weapons.
      • Raging Storm (Badon Bow): This is the common choice for HCE, it has an excellent AoE damage and it is very useful at PvP too.
      By my point of view, this is the problem with bows, they are very limited to a situation and the other bows don't have a different and useful playstyle in this game. The objetive of this thread is to make low used bows a good alternative to improve the variability in this game.
      • Undead Arrows (Whispering Bow): It is a cool skill, but making it so realiant of attack speed becomes a stationary firing turret. Another problem is that is single target damage in a few seconds.
        What makes this bow interesting? Its long range and auto attack modifier.
        Changes:
        1. Arrows now become long linear shoots that pierce the enemy, dealing increase magic damage.
        Grants a set speed attack buff that cannot be increased by other sources (to prevent machine guns and giving a bit of love to autoattacks skills).
        Toggleable? Number of arrows cap? Increase buff duration? Immune to purge? Incremental or decreasing damage per target?
        2. Channeled spell in which your start shooting arrows in the direction of your mouse, piercing your enemies and reducing their resistances. You cannot move during the channeling.[Grimhawke-EB]
      • Rain of Arrows (Long Bow): It is a cheap alternative to Badon Bow; however has almost no PvP utility. It makes you to stand still to channel a sad skill.
        What makes this bow interesting? Big AoE rain of arrows (like a group medieval archers)
        Change:
        1. Instead of a channelled spell, a casting spell.
        After the casting, shoot a single barrage of arrows at that location, dealing high damage and a strong slow. (Similar to undead archers skill)
        Maybe less direct damage with a bleeding?
        2. Royal helmet flavor text. Shoot an arrow to mark a location. Your allies fire at that location. [Treas]
      • Enchanted Quiver (Bow): Another self-buff enchant to autoattacks, atleast unlike Whispering Bow, this comes with a attack speed buff itself. The buff lasts short, though.
        Change:
        1. For the next seconds, your autoattacks inflict a shadow DoT stackable. If it reachs a set number of stacks, it spreads to close enemies and inflicts fear in area (small duration).
        2. Move Deadly Shot to this spot, you start channeling a powerful arrow. After that, you release it to a direction, dealing high damage to the first enemy hit and knocking it back for a set number of metters. If the enemy hits another enemy, both recieve damage and become stunned.
      I'm open to change the entire post with new ideas, so feel free to write what are you thinking about the set and I will edit the thread to include your comments.

      Changelog:
      [13.06.2018] Thread created.
      [14.06.2018] Addead Nvs1980 ideas about Q rework to AA modifiers. Added Grimhawke-EB new firing turret Whispering Bow. Purposing ideas about Enchanted Quiver (Bow).
      [15.06.2018] About Deadly Shot issues. New Longbow' skill idea by Treas.
      -Zhanak-

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 9 mal editiert, zuletzt von Zhanak ()

    • In order to have a meaningful conversation about any weapon, you need to specify from what perspective you are analyzing the weapon.

      For example, Deadly Shot does exactly 100% the same damage as the standard Q on all ranged weapons. So it doesn't really make sense to say that the skill is bad in general, when it might actually be the best Q for GvG.

      Just sayin. I like your contribution so far. But these discussions (there are like 1000 discussion threads about bows) often end up being useless, because you're not clear on what perspective you're analyzing the weapon from.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Longbow is actually pretty strong in PvP. Rain of Arrow + Explosive arrows does a lot of damage, as long as you can get the full channel off. But it is only 2s so not too bad. Just pop cleric robe everlasting spirit beforehand so you get the invul.

      I agree that deadly shot just isn't quite right, maybe the changes listed in the NDA playtest notes will make it viable but I don't think so.

      Also agree that the old version of speed shot was better - I would take the extra movement speed any day. The change made it so that daggers became kings of mobility and warbows just can't keep up anymore.

      This is just a crazy idea, but what if whispering bow was reworked into a channeled skill shot, IE you literally become a rapid fire turret but instead of being targeted, the arrows shoot in whatever direction you're facing and can hit multiple enemies similiar to the wailing bow's arrow. Just make them hit less hard, but give them either a pierce/silence debuff to give bows some utility in GvG.
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    • Stravanov schrieb:

      In order to have a meaningful conversation about any weapon, you need to specify from what perspective you are analyzing the weapon.
      The thread is made to explain my point of view about the perspective of the bow and how it feels to play it.
      You are right about specify each point. That alsocomes with more opinions of other players about the weapon.

      Stravanov schrieb:

      For example, Deadly Shot does exactly 100% the same damage as the standard Q on all ranged weapons. So it doesn't really make sense to say that the skill is bad in general, when it might actually be the best Q for GvG.
      The damage of Deadly Shot is good as it is. But unlike other weapons (like frost of fire), bow has more autoattack damage that you are missing by casting a spell.
      My other point about Deadly Shot is that developers gave bow a lot of attack speed and attack modifiers, but then they put a castable skill that makes you lose that beneficts. It is my thought about the kit.

      Grimhawke-EB schrieb:

      Longbow is actually pretty strong in PvP. Rain of Arrow + Explosive arrows does a lot of damage, as long as you can get the full channel off. But it is only 2s so not too bad. Just pop cleric robe everlasting spirit beforehand so you get the invul.
      That is the point, you have to use 2 skills and a conditional buff, to make it comparable to another weapons that can do the same with less effort.

      Grimhawke-EB schrieb:

      This is just a crazy idea, but what if whispering bow was reworked into a channeled skill shot, IE you literally become a rapid fire turret but instead of being targeted, the arrows shoot in whatever direction you're facing and can hit multiple enemies similiar to the wailing bow's arrow. Just make them hit less hard, but give them either a pierce/silence debuff to give bows some utility in GvG.
      I like it. Can be attached as you focus on your targets and shoot them if they enter in your area of attack.
      -Zhanak-

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von Zhanak ()

    • I'll preface this as also being entirely my opinion. I realize people don't agree with me on a lot of this given the eleventybillion other bow threads that I've commented in but I'm still a firm believer of a lot of this.

      ::First Skills::
      IMO, the largest problem with bows right now is poison arrow. When people say Warbow is a great 1v1 weapon, the primary reason for this is because of Poison Arrow and how it enables the player to very easily kite. It's a long range, instant cast, stacking DOT on a weapon kit with multiple movement skills (a movement speed increase, a root, and a disengage). As long as Poison Arrow remains as is, people will always lament how powerful Warbows are in PvP and any legitimate discussion about bows will never get anywhere because people will justify the weapon's overall weakness in other areas with how dominant it is in 1v1. I think you need to start here when you want to discuss kit changes to the bow.

      If it were up to me, I'd repurpose the bow to be this game's ranged auto attack weapon. To do this I'd repurpose all 3 Q skills to be toggle abilities that grant unique benefits to the bow's auto attack. Deadly Shot would simply increase your range by 15%. Multishot would make your auto attack also hit 2 additional targets (and would thus remove the need for explosive arrow). Poison Shot would make your auto attack also apply a stacking DOT. All of these would then interact with the other skills available to the bow.

      ::Second Skills::
      Explosive Shot can be removed because of the toggle approach above would give the weapon enough AE. Speed Shot should simply give you a 20% movement and 20% attack speed increase and not require you to shoot an arrow first. Just instant cast like any number of similar abilities (Axe, Sword, etc). Frost Shot is too clunky with the directional leap. I'd rather they just make it an instant cast ability where you drop a trip wire that can snare a target and give you a movement buff like speed shot. Ray of Light is fine now if not a tad bit too powerful. With the removal of explosive shot, why not put a real armor debuff here?

      ::Third Skills::
      This is where the toggle skills above will cause a lot of these skills to need adjustments.

      Warbow: Fine.
      Bow: The resistance reduction on max stacks is too unreliable imo and if the class could get armor reduction elsewhere, it won't be needed here. I'd suggest making this simply increase your auto attack damage slightly on every shot as opposed to only after max stack and completely redo the Undead shot?
      Longbow: Fine and with the toggle abilities would allow you to get a larger radius/longer range E or the E can do more damage/poison over its entire duration instead of just the first wave. But this is the skill that would need the most fine tuning given the toggle approach because an explosive shot toggle could make this too powerful.
      Whispering: The toggle for range would make the need for range on this shot redundant and overpowered so it would need to be removed. The added damage wouldn't be that spectacular of an ability and should be moved to the bow skill at a much lower percentage. Instead why not allow this skill to drain energy? This game is really lacking energy drain mechanics and this bow would be a great GvG weapon with a toggled extended range and the ability to greatly diminish the amount of available energy a healer has. Something like a buff that your auto attacks for the next 10 seconds will also drain X energy kind of thing.
      Wailing: This is fine though I wish it ramped up to max damager after 1 fewer target.
      Badon: This bow is fine.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Nvs1980 ()

    • Grimhawke-EB schrieb:



      This is just a crazy idea, but what if whispering bow was reworked into a channeled skill shot, IE you literally become a rapid fire turret but instead of being targeted, the arrows shoot in whatever direction you're facing and can hit multiple enemies similiar to the wailing bow's arrow. Just make them hit less hard, but give them either a pierce/silence debuff to give bows some utility in GvG.
      Bump to this, sounds like a very interesting new playstyle option.
    • Nvs1980 schrieb:

      ::First Skills::
      IMO, the largest problem with bows right now is poison arrow. When people say Warbow is a great 1v1 weapon, the primary reason for this is because of Poison Arrow and how it enables the player to very easily kite. It's a long range, instant cast, stacking DOT on a weapon kit with multiple movement skills (a movement speed increase, a root, and a disengage). As long as Poison Arrow remains as is, people will always lament how powerful Warbows are in PvP and any legitimate discussion about bows will never get anywhere because people will justify the weapon's overall weakness in other areas with how dominant it is in 1v1. I think you need to start here when you want to discuss kit changes to the bow.

      If it were up to me, I'd repurpose the bow to be this game's ranged auto attack weapon. To do this I'd repurpose all 3 Q skills to be toggle abilities that grant unique benefits to the bow's auto attack. Deadly Shot would simply increase your range by 15%. Multishot would make your auto attack also hit 2 additional targets (and would thus remove the need for explosive arrow). Poison Shot would make your auto attack also apply a stacking DOT. All of these would then interact with the other skills available to the bow.
      The problem with making all three basic skills passive buffs is that your decrease the skill cap of the weapon, as you will only have to choose the best modifier in a set situation. It is a cool idea (Instead of increase range, I'd give Deadly Shot +15% attack damage), if more abilities were available to specialize the skill set.
      Also, is a bit confusing on how it would change the other abilities. WarBow E with Multishot would hit in area?

      However, I like the idea about selecting your quiver. Maybe for Bow E.

      Nvs1980 schrieb:

      ::Second Skills::Explosive Shot can be removed because of the toggle approach above would give the weapon enough AE. Speed Shot should simply give you a 20% movement and 20% attack speed increase and not require you to shoot an arrow first. Just instant cast like any number of similar abilities (Axe, Sword, etc). Frost Shot is too clunky with the directional leap. I'd rather they just make it an instant cast ability where you drop a trip wire that can snare a target and give you a movement buff like speed shot. Ray of Light is fine now if not a tad bit too powerful. With the removal of explosive shot, why not put a real armor debuff here?
      I agree with that, W skills are a bit trash with no way to improve the playstyle at this moment.

      Nvs1980 schrieb:

      ::Third Skills::This is where the toggle skills above will cause a lot of these skills to need adjustments.

      Warbow: Fine.
      Bow: The resistance reduction on max stacks is too unreliable imo and if the class could get armor reduction elsewhere, it won't be needed here. I'd suggest making this simply increase your auto attack damage slightly on every shot as opposed to only after max stack and completely redo the Undead shot?
      Longbow: Fine and with the toggle abilities would allow you to get a larger radius/longer range E or the E can do more damage/poison over its entire duration instead of just the first wave. But this is the skill that would need the most fine tuning given the toggle approach because an explosive shot toggle could make this too powerful.
      Whispering: The toggle for range would make the need for range on this shot redundant and overpowered so it would need to be removed. The added damage wouldn't be that spectacular of an ability and should be moved to the bow skill at a much lower percentage. Instead why not allow this skill to drain energy? This game is really lacking energy drain mechanics and this bow would be a great GvG weapon with a toggled extended range and the ability to greatly diminish the amount of available energy a healer has. Something like a buff that your auto attacks for the next 10 seconds will also drain X energy kind of thing.
      Wailing: This is fine though I wish it ramped up to max damager after 1 fewer target.
      Badon: This bow is fine.
      I don't like the idea about draining energy, back from WoW Priest, it is a lame mechanic, and I don't see it working in this particular game.

      I'll update the thread with these new ideas.
      -Zhanak-

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Zhanak ()

    • So let me just get this straight, is it the general consensus that bow be made into the ranged AA weapon?


      Zhanak schrieb:

      1st Skill (Q hotkey)


      Multishot: Nothing to complain about this skill. It is a good AoE damage skill.

      Deadly Shot: This skill is just not funny to use. You have to stand still to cast it for a very small reward, it doesn't offer anything attractive to the bow's kit and get outscaled by the next ability (in damage and mobility).
      With the new change (resistances shred) in the future patch, it gets a bit better, but still not enough.
      Change:

      Poisoned Arrow: One of the best skills. With 3 stacks it offers insane single target damage (and you don't have to cast it)
      Change ideas:
      1. Make them all autoattack modifier, becoming Bow an autoattack weapon. This modifiers improve other bow abilities.
      Multishot: +2 target per hit. Deadly Shot: +15% range (I suggest damage). Poisoned Arrow: DoT stackable on hit. [Nvs1980]
      With the suggestions by NVS1980, we get a Q set that completely supports AA. The problem I see is they are ALL AA modifiers. In this case a clear winner will rise from the ranks and we'll be back here complaining about that instead. Again, I will list spear and dagger as examples. They both have direct damage skills (lunging strike and sunder armor) and AA skills (spirit spear and assassin spirit sort of). Some of these are ok as skills shots instead of straight up AA mods.

      It's ok to have skill shots on Q. So long as they are instant cast, it supports the AA playstyle bow is (by consensus) going for. Following the AA design, we could have 2 Q's be AA mods while 1 becomes a skill shot.
      • Multishot - This AA mod is ok so long as the animation would be firing multiple arrows instead of a bounce
      • Deadly Shot - Why not an instant cast penetrating skills shot? There are plenty of E's to emulate
      • Poisoned Arrow - Does no one remember grudge? This won't exactly be the same since it's not a combo between 2 people with 2 different sets of gear to power the skill, but it will be similar. The problem is dots stacking on the 1st hit (that's why grudge is basically trash the way it is now). Poisoned arrow being a CD at least throttles how often you can "hit for full dot damage" instead of waiting for tics. Dagger W adds magic damage to AA's as an alternative.

      Zhanak schrieb:

      2nd Skill (W hotkey)
      ...
      My only comment is all of these have to not need a target

      Zhanak schrieb:

      Channeled
      This is where I get confused. Cannels ignore aspd (the only stat we can get from other gear that improves AA) but you want it for an AA centric weapon. You later acknowledge channels are sad when looking at longbow. That said

      Zhanak schrieb:

      Rain of Arrows (Long Bow): It is a cheap alternative to Badon Bow; however has almost no PvP utility. It makes you to stand still to channel a sad skill.
      What makes this bow interesting? Big AoE rain of arrows (like a group medieval archers)

      This doesn't have to be a channel. Here are some ways to change it and still keep to the arrow shower theme
      • Really short CD for 1 tic worth of damage on the current iteration of the skill and manually cast it over and over to simulate the showering of arrows.
      • Explosive arrows on steroids. Instead of a target you could fire at your mouse.
      • Royal helmet flavor text. Shoot an arrow to mark a location. Your allies fire at that location.

      Zhanak schrieb:

      Enchanted Quiver (Bow): Another self-buff enchant to autoattacks, atleast unlike Whispering Bow, this comes with a attack speed buff itself. I have no thoughts about this bow, neither how to improve it.
      I would remove the shot count on it or remove the stacking nature of its effect.
    • From a GvG player perspective none of these major changes are needed. They would also completely change the way bows play which might not be something SBI wants for bows. Some of the changes suggested also have major implications that make them very OP. Such as multishot instead making your AA hit 2 other people, imagine that with enchanted quiver and explosive shot on. Or if it copies your auto attacks then it would work with whispering e as well. Sounds a bit to strong.

      Since I only play bows in GvG and some ZvZ i won't say anything about the warbow. Imo both wailing, longbow and badon don't require any changes currently, they are very good options for ZvZ. Currenty in GvGs I play whispering but normal bow might be an option as well.
      • The main issue that can happen with both of these bows is that they rely heavily on buffs to do their damage; explosive shot, bow E and whispering E can all be purged. Also a quarterstaff if they run forceful swing can completely negate your biggest abilities. Making them immune to purges would probably be to strong but since they can be purged it could give reason to buff the abilties a bit.
      • Enchanted quivers buff has a low duration, therefore getting stunned mid fight or not having a target to hit for a little bit makes your stacks fall off. If your stacks fall of you do no damage and the ability is wasted. I wouldn't mind having this ability work like a druid robe, where you stack up and once you reach max stacks you keep them until the end. Here being when you shoot 15 arrows or it could be changed to a duration.
      • The new deadly shot on the test server is fine in itself, but it doesn't really fit the bows playstyle. You are not a caster that simply stands there and spams q like a fire or frost. This is not doable anyway since you do not have agressive caster. But when you take deadly shot that is something you have to do, yet this is not possible with both enchanted quiver and undead arrows. They are both buffs with a duration and it's a loss of dps to interweave deadly shots. So you end up with a playstyle where you auto attack using your w and e abilities and once those run out you spam your q. Since this playstyle doesn't allow you to use your q for large portions of the fight I choose to run multishot on whispering, partly because 3 melee is the meta atm so you can usually hit multiple targets. On normal bow poison arrow is probably the ability you want to use to increase your single target damage. Changing deadly shot to be instant cast with a 2/3 sec cd might be something to try out. You then have the options to use any q while using your auto attacks that are buffed by your w and e. Multishot would give moderate aoe damage, and 2 single target options. You would have to balance deadly shot around the armor pierce though, so in itself it should do less damage than poison arrow over time.
      All in all bows are currently in a pretty good state, usable in both small and large scale PvP and PvE. The only field that might require some changes are for GvGs, and all I can complain about is the 3 points above. One small QoL change I wouldn´t mind though is making undead arrows fire at the same time as your auto attack instead of the delay it currently does. Getting your damage out quicker is never a bad thing.

      I have also not touched on the different w abilities bows have, atm it´s pretty much explosive arrow or bust. I have not extensively tried the other options because they are pretty underwhelming for gvgs therefore I don´t really have any concrete things I would want to change about them.
    • Boe, would you mind explaining why you prefer explosive arrow over ray of light?

      I don't do real GvGs with bow yet but I've done a handful of skirms (and tons of arenas before that) and I've always found Ray of Light to be more valuable because of the shorter cooldown and the upfront burst it provides.

      As for the multishot Q ability I proposed, that would also remove explosive shot from the game. You would no longer have both. And with the Q passive reducing it to 2 additional targets instead of 5 or more, I assume the damage wouldn't get out of hand. But these are just suggestions and number crunching would be needed.

      You are 100% right and it would change the overall feel of bow and SBI probably doesn't want to do too heavy handed of changes after launch.
    • Treas schrieb:

      So let me just get this straight, is it the general consensus that bow be made into the ranged AA weapon?


      With the suggestions by NVS1980, we get a Q set that completely supports AA. The problem I see is they are ALL AA modifiers. In this case a clear winner will rise from the ranks and we'll be back here complaining about that instead. Again, I will list spear and dagger as examples. They both have direct damage skills (lunging strike and sunder armor) and AA skills (spirit spear and assassin spirit sort of). Some of these are ok as skills shots instead of straight up AA mods.
      It's ok to have skill shots on Q. So long as they are instant cast, it supports the AA playstyle bow is (by consensus) going for. Following the AA design, we could have 2 Q's be AA mods while 1 becomes a skill shot.
      • Multishot - This AA mod is ok so long as the animation would be firing multiple arrows instead of a bounce
      • Deadly Shot - Why not an instant cast penetrating skills shot? There are plenty of E's to emulate
      • Poisoned Arrow - Does no one remember grudge? This won't exactly be the same since it's not a combo between 2 people with 2 different sets of gear to power the skill, but it will be similar. The problem is dots stacking on the 1st hit (that's why grudge is basically trash the way it is now). Poisoned arrow being a CD at least throttles how often you can "hit for full dot damage" instead of waiting for tics. Dagger W adds magic damage to AA's as an alternative.

      I don't see Bow as pure range AA weapon (although I like the idea of having some bows to improve that way of playing). In this game none weapon is like that, I see Bow as Dagger or Spear with a mediocre AA damage and complementary abilities.
      So the thing is: your AA does enough damage to not ignore it, and that is my problem with channeled Deadly Shot. It reduces your damage output by blocking your natural AA.
      The other 2 Q abilities are fine as they are, in term of design.

      Treas schrieb:

      This is where I get confused. Cannels ignore aspd (the only stat we can get from other gear that improves AA) but you want it for an AA centric weapon. You later acknowledge channels are sad when looking at longbow. That said

      Zhanak schrieb:

      Rain of Arrows (Long Bow): It is a cheap alternative to Badon Bow; however has almost no PvP utility. It makes you to stand still to channel a sad skill.
      What makes this bow interesting? Big AoE rain of arrows (like a group medieval archers)
      This doesn't have to be a channel. Here are some ways to change it and still keep to the arrow shower theme
      • Really short CD for 1 tic worth of damage on the current iteration of the skill and manually cast it over and over to simulate the showering of arrows.
      • Explosive arrows on steroids. Instead of a target you could fire at your mouse.
      • Royal helmet flavor text. Shoot an arrow to mark a location. Your allies fire at that location.

      Yeah, Channeling that skill is the part I don't like it, however the skill is fine as "Longbow" defining.
      With the "casting time" I don't mean a long cast like magic staffs, more something like Infernal Scythe: small cast that can be countered with reflexes.
      I will add these ideas to the Longbow. Pretty much we agree at Longbow as a multiple shot of arrows.

      Lanc3k schrieb:

      Whispering is beautiful as it is ........... it requires no change.

      If you want to buff the fuck out of it and make it's e a toggle with energy cost per arrow, it would be nice ....... otherwise it requires no change.
      Don't get me wrong. I like Whispering Bow a lot, I love the design but it lacks a bit of power to make it more useful in groups.
      -Zhanak-
    • Explosive arrows have a radius of 5 meters which allows you to damage more targets with it compared to the 3 meters of ray of light, explosive arrows also combos well with undead arrows ray of light doesn´t have enough range if you are using undead arrows at max range. Besides that ray of light is hard to use in a GvG, its radius is only 3 meters. That combined with the delay of it hitting and there being latency it is hard to reliable hit this ability on who you want to if they arent locked in place to begin with. You are right that it has more damage potential but in reality I have found explosive arrows to simply be better.
    • Boedavildje schrieb:

      From a GvG player perspective none of these major changes are needed. They would also completely change the way bows play which might not be something SBI wants for bows. Some of the changes suggested also have major implications that make them very OP. Such as multishot instead making your AA hit 2 other people, imagine that with enchanted quiver and explosive shot on. Or if it copies your auto attacks then it would work with whispering e as well. Sounds a bit to strong.

      Since I only play bows in GvG and some ZvZ i won't say anything about the warbow. Imo both wailing, longbow and badon don't require any changes currently, they are very good options for ZvZ. Currenty in GvGs I play whispering but normal bow might be an option as well.
      • The main issue that can happen with both of these bows is that they rely heavily on buffs to do their damage; explosive shot, bow E and whispering E can all be purged. Also a quarterstaff if they run forceful swing can completely negate your biggest abilities. Making them immune to purges would probably be to strong but since they can be purged it could give reason to buff the abilties a bit.
      • Enchanted quivers buff has a low duration, therefore getting stunned mid fight or not having a target to hit for a little bit makes your stacks fall off. If your stacks fall of you do no damage and the ability is wasted. I wouldn't mind having this ability work like a druid robe, where you stack up and once you reach max stacks you keep them until the end. Here being when you shoot 15 arrows or it could be changed to a duration.
      • The new deadly shot on the test server is fine in itself, but it doesn't really fit the bows playstyle. You are not a caster that simply stands there and spams q like a fire or frost. This is not doable anyway since you do not have agressive caster. But when you take deadly shot that is something you have to do, yet this is not possible with both enchanted quiver and undead arrows. They are both buffs with a duration and it's a loss of dps to interweave deadly shots. So you end up with a playstyle where you auto attack using your w and e abilities and once those run out you spam your q. Since this playstyle doesn't allow you to use your q for large portions of the fight I choose to run multishot on whispering, partly because 3 melee is the meta atm so you can usually hit multiple targets. On normal bow poison arrow is probably the ability you want to use to increase your single target damage. Changing deadly shot to be instant cast with a 2/3 sec cd might be something to try out. You then have the options to use any q while using your auto attacks that are buffed by your w and e. Multishot would give moderate aoe damage, and 2 single target options. You would have to balance deadly shot around the armor pierce though, so in itself it should do less damage than poison arrow over time.
      All in all bows are currently in a pretty good state, usable in both small and large scale PvP and PvE. The only field that might require some changes are for GvGs, and all I can complain about is the 3 points above. One small QoL change I wouldn´t mind though is making undead arrows fire at the same time as your auto attack instead of the delay it currently does. Getting your damage out quicker is never a bad thing.

      I have also not touched on the different w abilities bows have, atm it´s pretty much explosive arrow or bust. I have not extensively tried the other options because they are pretty underwhelming for gvgs therefore I don´t really have any concrete things I would want to change about them.
      Yeah, this thread is not to make bow OP with these new fancy skills. The purpose of this is to give some ideas and thoughs about the use of the bows, thats why I'm not talking about numbers of damage.
      I thank you a lot for your detailed comment with your perspective of GvG (that I don't have) and ZvZ.

      I agree with the weird design of Deadly Shot in this class. I think is the main change I would make because right now its use is contradictory.
      The other changes suggest are only for improving the gameplay of the weapon. Right now Bow and Whispering have the same design in terms of "autoattack dealer" and lack a bit of power in AoE damage (which might be fine to be single target in GvG 5vs5).
      I would like you to give us more knowledge about this.
      -Zhanak-
    • Zhanak schrieb:

      Yeah, this thread is not to make bow OP with these new fancy skills. The purpose of this is to give some ideas and thoughs about the use of the bows, thats why I'm not talking about numbers of damage.I thank you a lot for your detailed comment with your perspective of GvG (that I don't have) and ZvZ.

      I agree with the weird design of Deadly Shot in this class. I think is the main change I would make because right now its use is contradictory.
      The other changes suggest are only for improving the gameplay of the weapon. Right now Bow and Whispering have the same design in terms of "autoattack dealer" and lack a bit of power in AoE damage (which might be fine to be single target in GvG 5vs5).
      I would like you to give us more knowledge about this.
      Aoe damage it not something that is really needed that much in GvGs, the explosive arrows and multishot are plenty of aoe. The reason I play bows in GvGs is for their single target potential, the whispering in particular for their single target pressure at long ranges. You can usually safely hit even their backline. The normal bow would have its role be to heavily harass the opponents melee to either kill them or force them back, which is a roll currently better done by a fire. Having an instant cast armor pierce would help bringing normal bow in line imo.
    • Boedavildje schrieb:

      Aoe damage it not something that is really needed that much in GvGs, the explosive arrows and multishot are plenty of aoe. The reason I play bows in GvGs is for their single target potential, the whispering in particular for their single target pressure at long ranges. You can usually safely hit even their backline. The normal bow would have its role be to heavily harass the opponents melee to either kill them or force them back, which is a roll currently better done by a fire. Having an instant cast armor pierce would help bringing normal bow in line imo.
      Do you use Hunter Jacket with Whispering or Cloth Robe? I tried both and it seems they have the same damage, but with less Attack Speed you are free to move between attacks easier.

      Maybe for Bow, tweak its ability to reduce resistances starting with its first hit (or with less charges), at a cost of less attack speed or damage increase? That way you solve the problem of having to stack a lot of hits or becoming useless if you get stunned.
      -Zhanak-
    • Zhanak schrieb:

      Do you use Hunter Jacket with Whispering or Cloth Robe? I tried both and it seems they have the same damage, but with less Attack Speed you are free to move between attacks easier.
      Maybe for Bow, tweak its ability to reduce resistances starting with its first hit (or with less charges), at a cost of less attack speed or damage increase? That way you solve the problem of having to stack a lot of hits or becoming useless if you get stunned.
      I use cleric robe with whispering, it gives your other abilities more damage aswell and the cleric robe ability makes you more tanky then the hunter would. Cultist robe can also be an option to run, slightly more dmg and infinite mana but less survival and more expensive.

      A lot of the bows usefulness comes from its damage though, its stacks falling off would still large ruin your damage.
    • The problem with the bow is very simple for GvG with standard and whispering bow:

      the deadly shot is hardly usable or not efficient with any E. When you proc your E, you can't use a an ability because you will loose a lot damage (whispering) or all your damage (standard).

      All other wep don't have to choose between spamming their Q with minimum result or using auto attack with E with moderate result .... They just use everything because no other have E related with autoattack for a 8-10 sec period and Q related with cast time ... This is why bow look good on paper but doesn't work well. When a xbow player use is E, he can still spam is Q/W 1sec after ... we can't!

      Solution :

      1- deadly shot could give any kind of buff or debuff for a long duration (10-15sec)
      2- deadly shoot could have a cooldown of 15sec but with a better result/damage/effect whatsoever.
      3- deadly shoot could have no cast time and long cooldown but only apply a debuff or a buff (i don't like this one)

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von nicolas2162 ()

    • nicolas2162 schrieb:

      The problem with the bow is very simple for GvG with standard and whispering bow:

      the deadly shot is hardly usable or not efficient with any E. When you proc your E, you can't use a an ability because you will loose a lot damage (whispering) or all your damage (standard).

      All other wep don't have to choose between spamming their Q with minimum result or using auto attack with E with moderate result .... They just use everything because no other have E related with autoattack for a 8-10 sec period and Q related with cast time ... This is why bow look good on paper but doesn't work well. When a xbow player use is E, he can still spam is Q/W 1sec after ... we can't!

      Solution :

      1- deadly shot could give any kind of buff or debuff for a long duration (10-15sec)
      2- deadly shoot could have a cooldown of 15sec but with a better result/damage/effect whatsoever.
      3- deadly shoot could have no cast time and long cooldown but only apply a debuff or a buff (i don't like this one)
      This really isn't the case. Bows just don't work because they don't have burst, utility, or control.

      A lot of teams are now using Boltcasters for example. They can't spam anything between their 'E' ability because their 'E' is a long duration channel and even the slightest interruption in the damage stream will cause the weapon to not stack up. If you want Bow or Whispering to actually be a factor, the solution is simple: make their Es do the same damage as boltcaster's.

      Whispering is nice because they can pressure the backline from relative safety. The downside to their ability to do this is they have to auto-attack and stand still to do it. Frankly, all bows should just have a way to make their auto attacks 15m (ie. make deadly shot a toggle to increase range) so they can legitimately pressure the backline the whole fight and actually use their E skills for the kill. That would give them an actual niche a team can be built around.