Melee DPS Compare

  • Melee DPS Compare

    Disclaimer: I am an axe user, and I do think the overall line suffers from lack of util/cc. That said, here is a high level comparison I did for myself too see if I was missing something or not. I have a few conclusions, and you can make your own:

    (this is about an overall weapon line - not a commentary on specific weapons - where of course some shine and some don't...)



    My observations:
    • Axe (Smash!) line suffers from lack of options to stick to target. Sacrificing mobility for DMG (Axe W) doesn't make up for the lack of mobility. Or maybe its just that the other 3 lines in general are OP (not really, but not sure where @Retroman thinks these sit in comparison)
      • Note: Greataxe on paper actually looks pretty good.. and more people are using it with Merc armor. However being able to easily interrupt whirlwind makes the total dmg often way less than the optimal 1400+. Above is adjusted for this.
    • Sword and Spear lines seem to have a lot of good utility/cc options, which supports why they are appear to be more popular.
    • Dagger line is OK, especially in certain "assassin like" scenarios. Although 1H dagger seems to stink - especially the E, and lack of representation in GvG says something too.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eron ().

  • Assuming you are talking about PvP and general weapon guidance, your analysis is fairly good though you miss/couldnt fit some of the nuances of all the weapons.

    I like that Axe is the anti healing melee line (which others generally don't have). It does suffer from having no slows or CC of any real measure. Right now Sword/Spear are currently tier 1 + melee weapons because they can have both Damage and CC all in one. Bear Paw is part of the meta do to a strong engage from the dash + damage, though Carrion + others have slipped out. It is almost always better to bring an Spear or Swords to PvP.

    In order to bring Axes in line they need to buff damage or add CC as you are implying. The new NDA reflect buff on spear and 1 handed spear may make Spear GOD tier, not that it isn't already. Spear has an answer to practically anything. This is from a t8 Spear user perspective that also has Axe and Sword leveled.

    Spear as an example has: Ranged attack, Slows, Trumps Swords stacks (anything with movement) with Cripple, Reflect Damage on low cool down, Displacement/Dash + Knockup/Pull on weapon unique spells, Ranged and Melee AOE, Mana regen, Damage increase...GOD TIER


    Current DPS Melee Ratings -

    GOD Tier:
    Spear

    Tier 1:
    Sword

    Tier 2:
    Axe

    Tier 3:
    Dagger (potentially tier 2 as they have a stigma but have seen them be very effective)
    Hammer

    Tier 4:
    Mace
    Quarter Staff

  • This is only my personal opinion as an Axe user, but the only thing I like about Axe (PvE) is the short cooldown.

    @Eron if you do not mind, could you calculate damage output with Deadly Chop + Energetic Sprint, please.

    My Combo: (cooldown/energy cost passives)

    W (Heavy Smash aka Deadly Chop) -> Q -> F (Energetic Sprint / Cooldown buff) -> QQQ -> E ( -> Next Deadly Chop almost ready)

    I am not data oriented guy and if I would try to do a spreadsheet, i would probably miss a lot of detail ...

    edit: I believe only dagger line has a 2 second cooldown Q, that could compete, and I do use it on an alt (another, that I know is Curse from non-melee, which I also use on an alt)

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Ravenar ().

  • They want each weapon to have a unique playstyle. Does axe need a 30% snare if it has a 30% movement skill? If you give axes a snare what sets them apart from sword? Axe could certainly use improvement but it's starting to become meta and edge out swords completely now that more teams are using halberd and bear paw over clarent and galantine.

    I'm also at a loss for how the above tier list was created.
    Presence? Single Target DPS? AE DPS? Overall value to a group?
    Dagger is bar none the highest DPS weapon in the game. Not sure how it could ever be Tier 3 unless we're talking about AE damage. But if that's the case how in the world did Spear make it GOD tier?
    Why not look at overall presence or value in a group setting like 5v5/GvG?
    S: Quarterstaff
    A: Hammer
    B: Spear (would it even go here? More likely in C)
    C: Axe / Sword (Halberd changes are edging out Clarents these days)
    E: Dagger

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Nvs1980 ().

  • Eron wrote:




    My observations:
    • Axe (Smash!) line suffers from lack of options to stick to target. Sacrificing mobility for DMG (Axe W) doesn't make up for the lack of mobility. Or maybe its just that the other 3 lines in general are OP (not really, but not sure where @Retroman thinks these sit in comparison)

    This is the key issue (bold). With Deadly Chop you are a "massive" (I still like it) damage dealer that is easily countered in PvP, without Deadly Chop you are NOT a damage dealer anymore (except Paws, maybe) AT ALL and you are still not that mobile. A sword guy catches you without much effort.

    @Retroman
  • Nvs1980 wrote:

    They want each weapon to have a unique playstyle. Does axe need a 30% snare if it has a 30% movement skill? If you give axes a snare what sets them apart from sword? Axe could certainly use improvement but it's starting to become meta and edge out swords completely now that more teams are using halberd and bear paw over clarent and galantine.

    I'm also at a loss for how the above tier list was created.
    Presence? Single Target DPS? AE DPS? Overall value to a group?
    Dagger is bar none the highest DPS weapon in the game. Not sure how it could ever be Tier 3 unless we're talking about AE damage. But if that's the case how in the world did Spear make it GOD tier?
    Why not look at overall presence or value in a group setting like 5v5/GvG?
    S: Quarterstaff
    A: Hammer
    B: Spear
    C: Axe / Sword (Halberd changes are edging out Clarents these days)
    E: Dagger
    GvG presence, overall usage and personal experience. Currently I can only name one dagger user in Black GvGs that is having success (not saying it isn't viable). Swords is practically on Every team. Spear is king of 1v1, its toolkit is unmatched and literally has a counter to any comp you bring in GvGs. It would be represented as the number one bruiser weapon if Swords weren't so fun to play and....

    BURST meta is in effect and thus why you see Bear Paw in GvGs (I think I was clear as to why you see it in the above post). I am not seeing Halberd successfully used in GvGs (maybe after the proposed NDA buff). Halberd is very easy to counter as the stacks drop off quickly. In turn it takes awhile to build up, without any real setup for your damage (poor mans Bear Paw). Swords stacks do not drop quickly and thus can run invis to get off a big damage increased swipe. Galatine (swords) puts out some of the highest single spell damage currently with invis.

    Also keep in mind any Tier list is generally up for interpretation.
  • Ravenar wrote:

    This is only my personal opinion as an Axe user, but the only thing I like about Axe (PvE) is the short cooldown.

    @Eron if you do not mind, could you calculate damage output with Deadly Chop + Energetic Sprint, please.

    My Combo: (cooldown/energy cost passives)

    W (Heavy Smash aka Deadly Chop) -> Q -> F (Energetic Sprint / Cooldown buff) -> QQQ -> E ( -> Next Deadly Chop almost ready)

    I am not data oriented guy and if I would try to do a spreadsheet, i would probably miss a lot of detail ...

    edit: I believe only dagger line has a 2 second cooldown Q, that could compete, and I do use it on an alt (another, that I know is Curse from non-melee, which I also use on an alt)
    Hi Ravenar - Here's what I think you wanted for the new calculation. Although it gets messy real fast when you try to calc over time, or with other procs/armor pieces. The best way to compare DPS is to do it in game - pull up the detailed status, pop your crocs and see how the DPS changes.

  • Nice, if I read that correcly, the 3 Qs after F should be 1 sec thanks to the Energetic Sprint.

    I thought of making videos of best dps builds I know and compare the ouput but problem is my specs are very different foe each build. I mihgt actually set an alt just for tgis purpose:

    :thumbup:

    Edit: but the point about dps drop without Deadly Chop is pretty obvious. Even without the resistance reduction which you did not seem to take into account?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ravenar ().

  • Sixunder wrote:

    GvG presence, overall usage and personal experience. Currently I can only name one dagger user in Black GvGs that is having success (not saying it isn't viable). Swords is practically on Every team. Spear is king of 1v1, its toolkit is unmatched and literally has a counter to any comp you bring in GvGs. It would be represented as the number one bruiser weapon if Swords weren't so fun to play and....
    BURST meta is in effect and thus why you see Bear Paw in GvGs (I think I was clear as to why you see it in the above post). I am not seeing Halberd successfully used in GvGs (maybe after the proposed NDA buff). Halberd is very easy to counter as the stacks drop off quickly. In turn it takes awhile to build up, without any real setup for your damage (poor mans Bear Paw). Swords stacks do not drop quickly and thus can run invis to get off a big damage increased swipe. Galatine (swords) puts out some of the highest single spell damage currently with invis.

    Also keep in mind any Tier list is generally up for interpretation.

    My team been using Halberd very successfully for a while now. We've been doing alright with it.

    You can see it being used from Skuz's perspective; twitch.tv/videos/231445476?t=05m15s
  • Chop + Refresh (My daily PvE build, pretty sweet, got wrong cowl)



    Addrenaline + Refresh (dunno what this is, because in PvP, I would switch to Evasive Jump)



    Addrenaline + Evasive (I have succesfully and unsuccefully used this at the arena with Paws)



    The last build you are pretty much one hit wonder. If you miss your Paws E, you are just standing or running if healer is not healing ;) )

    So the point I am trying to hammer in is, without Deadly Chop, your dps goes down the drain.


    @Retroman

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Ravenar: wrong link ().

  • @Syndic Thanks, I have been keeping an eye on Boed - he’s one of the top axe players. I think he’s 100 spec or near it in all the axe weapons, but it’s good to see some GvG with halberd!


    @Ravenar I might have a excel file you can use to compare total builds, let me dig it up and send it here.

    I do think each DPS melee should have its niche, but I bet if the latest NDA balances are near final for Lancelot, then a bit more work is needed. Spear OP? And Axe not enough from its bleed/heal debuff.. or missing some utility.
  • Eron wrote:

    @Syndic Thanks, I have been keeping an eye on Boed - he’s one of the top axe players. I think he’s 100 spec or near it in all the axe weapons, but it’s good to see some GvG with halberd!


    @Ravenar I might have a excel file you can use to compare total builds, let me dig it up and send it here.

    I do think each DPS melee should have its niche, but I bet if the latest NDA balances are near final for Lancelot, then a bit more work is needed. Spear OP? And Axe not enough from its bleed/heal debuff.. or missing some utility.

    Nah hes not even close, my team is notoriously bad at fame farming. For example, our healer just got T8 holy staffs unlocked last week.

    Axes are in a really good place right now for GVGs. Halberds, Carrioncallers and Bear paws are all top picks depending on opponents comp. Spears are solid picks too, Glaive has been strong since release. Swords (Clarent, Galatine) are 3rd pick at best because they only work against teams that don't have a clue or the tools for countering them.

    Buffing the axe-line more will just make it ridiculously OP. It's good where its at, no need to make it into another "must-pick" in GVG. It's already boring enough because to compete you need to have 3 must-picks (1H Holy, SOB, 1h Fire) that outshine everything else in their role by a mile.

    Staff of Balance needs to be deleted from the GVG game. Walking slow & heal debuff, just horribly overpowered and boring weapon compared to other tank weapon picks.
  • Syndic wrote:

    Eron wrote:

    @Syndic Thanks, I have been keeping an eye on Boed - he’s one of the top axe players. I think he’s 100 spec or near it in all the axe weapons, but it’s good to see some GvG with halberd!


    @Ravenar I might have a excel file you can use to compare total builds, let me dig it up and send it here.

    I do think each DPS melee should have its niche, but I bet if the latest NDA balances are near final for Lancelot, then a bit more work is needed. Spear OP? And Axe not enough from its bleed/heal debuff.. or missing some utility.
    Nah hes not even close, my team is notoriously bad at fame farming. For example, our healer just got T8 holy staffs unlocked last week.

    Axes are in a really good place right now for GVGs. Halberds, Carrioncallers and Bear paws are all top picks depending on opponents comp. Spears are solid picks too, Glaive has been strong since release. Swords (Clarent, Galatine) are 3rd pick at best because they only work against teams that don't have a clue or the tools for countering them.

    Buffing the axe-line more will just make it ridiculously OP. It's good where its at, no need to make it into another "must-pick" in GVG. It's already boring enough because to compete you need to have 3 must-picks (1H Holy, SOB, 1h Fire) that outshine everything else in their role by a mile.

    Staff of Balance needs to be deleted from the GVG game. Walking slow & heal debuff, just horribly overpowered and boring weapon compared to other tank weapon picks.
    In terms of GvG, how do you think Axe ranks (best to bottom?) to Sword or Spear line?

    I know @Retroman tends to balance for GvG, but 95% plus of the population doesn't GvG. I think most of the comments above are more around Open World, and the non-artifact items, with the exception of the T1 artifacts which are reasonably affordable for OW. When you get into GvG (which almost requires artifacts/relics), its almost like a different game.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eron ().

  • Sixunder wrote:

    Assuming you are talking about PvP and general weapon guidance, your analysis is fairly good though you miss/couldnt fit some of the nuances of all the weapons.

    I like that Axe is the anti healing melee line (which others generally don't have). It does suffer from having no slows or CC of any real measure. Right now Sword/Spear are currently tier 1 + melee weapons because they can have both Damage and CC all in one. Bear Paw is part of the meta do to a strong engage from the dash + damage, though Carrion + others have slipped out. It is almost always better to bring an Spear or Swords to PvP.

    In order to bring Axes in line they need to buff damage or add CC as you are implying. The new NDA reflect buff on spear and 1 handed spear may make Spear GOD tier, not that it isn't already. Spear has an answer to practically anything. This is from a t8 Spear user perspective that also has Axe and Sword leveled.

    Spear as an example has: Ranged attack, Slows, Trumps Swords stacks (anything with movement) with Cripple, Reflect Damage on low cool down, Displacement/Dash + Knockup/Pull on weapon unique spells, Ranged and Melee AOE, Mana regen, Damage increase...GOD TIER


    Current DPS Melee Ratings -

    GOD Tier:
    Spear

    Tier 1:
    Sword

    Tier 2:
    Axe

    Tier 3:
    Dagger (potentially tier 2 as they have a stigma but have seen them be very effective)
    Hammer

    Tier 4:
    Mace
    Quarter Staff
    depends on the focus of the weapon i would say, on healing reduction,
    dagger W is superior than a fully stacked axe Q, and dagger itself has high mobility, claw is god-tier on solo ganking or smaller group ganks. blood letter is really mobile to get a poison on target mounts for better dismounting in a gank.

    spear is god-tier as you have mentioned,

    sword has good utility, but only clarent sword is the only useful sword right now, as galatine being too expensive, claymore is underpowered and no one really brings broadsword or dual swords as it has way lesser utility.

    for axe, its complete bear paws meta, scythe and carrion is out of meta as hit delay from scythe hurts itself badly and carrion doesnt have enough overall dps. i may see a pattern of halberd raising, yet it is still inferior compare to clarent currently, yet deserve more observation.

    i disagree on the part that the rankings on tank weapons which is being on Tier4 on the list.

    for tanks it should be hammer and quarterstaff meta, as thats what most tanks bring now days.

    as Qt-staff Q has either strong target sticking(slow/stun), or short cd mobility and interrupt, meanwhile having stun run for additonal mobility and cc on lower cooldown.
    soul-scythe E is god-tier zvz skill, ironclad E works in zvz and smaller fight condition and double bladed staff is one of the best ganking weapons out there.
    as Qt-staff really strong on ganking and zvzs, a bit bad on pve and duels.

    for hammers, the currently only meta hammer is great hammer, having great mobility with cc on each dash, and Q to almost perm stick on a target, really useful, but almost the only affordable useful hammer to bring by most players, as grove keeper being really expensive.

    Mace is out of meta, it has no place to match to quarterstaff really... it has way lesser mobility to make it stick on a target, rooting jump is slow and hard to land on most situations, Q being supportive other than target sticking compare to hammer and Qt-staff, and E's other than morning star are no longer as useful as merc helmet raise and naturestaff is pushed out of the meta. does worth mentioning that mace is still the best pve tank weapon out there, and air compressor is pretty useful in any situations, but is somewhat lacking compare the the 2 mentioned above.

    so for the damage melee weapons, swords and axes are pretty inferior on ganking perspective, but stronger in gvg/hg fair number fights and currently it is swords > axe meta. daggers has branches can be used in most sitituations and being god-tier on ganking, yet a little bit weaker compare to weapons specialized in certain situations. and lastly, spear is god-tier in most situations.

    for tank weapons.... great hammer for ganks, zvz, hg, almost considered as the only non-artifact hammer out there, grove keeper + soulscythe being the god-tier zvz melees. doubladed staff and great hammer for ganking, and maces for pve and some zvzs.
  • Eron wrote:

    In terms of GvG, how do you think Axe ranks (best to bottom?) to Sword or Spear line?
    I know @Retroman tends to balance for GvG, but 95% plus of the population doesn't GvG. I think most of the comments above are more around Open World, and the non-artifact items, with the exception of the T1 artifacts which are reasonably affordable for OW. When you get into GvG (which almost requires artifacts/relics), its almost like a different game.

    If I had to make a ranking list for GVG;

    1. Axe line
    2. Spear line
    3. Dagger line
    4. Sword line

    When it comes to the GVG enviroment, I honestly feel like axes are in a really good place right now. They definitely outshine Clarent/Galatine picks as it is, and more buffs would only cement them as "must-have". As I mentioned before, the biggest problem right now in GVG's is that there are 3 must-have picks (SOB, 1h Holy, 1h Fire) and if you don't have them in your roster you're pretty much fucked. The remaining 2 picks are usually key to determining team playstyle - some people pair a heavy crossbow with a fire, some people just leave the fire as the solo-ranged. Still, having a situation where 3/5 picks are predetermined and forcing people to play a certain way is really unhealthy for the game, and very boring.

    Balance changes impact both Open World and GVG, that's why I mentioned a few things from the GVG perspective. For example look at how implementing Relic weapons (designed for ZvZ) completely changed the GVG meta. You also gotta break down Open World into solo, small scale, large scale fights. Like all melee weapons axes shine in smaller fights, and are completely useless in large scale fights because of incoming damage.
  • @Syndic thanks good feedback. In general the OP was trying to address OW, vs GvG/relics which almost seems like a separate game...

    That said I think axe users are looking for a horizontal utility add vs an overall dmg buff. The main issues are (1) lack of gap closers or utility vs other DPS melee, and (2) choosing anything outside of W Heavy Smash underclasses Axe dmg way too much.

    My suggestions that hopefully wouldn't impact artifacts and GvG significantly:

    1. Combine W Adrenaline and Frenzy, and add a utility skill in the W line. Heck I would even settle for the Cripple skill seen on spears, although something unique would be better.
    2. Address the OW gap closing issue. Add 10% stacking slow for each rending bleed applied.
    3. Add Q and E synergies to Great Axe, Carrion and the other relics. Even a basic DMG modifier (-5% on 0, 0% on 1, 5% on 2, 10% on 3) would be better than nothing.


    I'd also "fix" the issue where the Halberd Rending DOT doesn't spread on the kill strike. Its super annoying in PvE, and probably doesn't make a diff in PvP.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eron ().