New Dagger Artifact Weapon...needs to change !

    • How da hell can you label my comment "non related". I wanted to show you that statistically the devs try to offer as much AoE and mono DD as possible. And they try to keep it balanced so that no weapon are more "meta" than any other. Ofc there's a long way to a perfect equilibrium. But the road is paved of lil enhancement.

      RockLobster schrieb:

      Every gatherer uses Bloodletters and some of the highest PvE fame farm comes from black zone skinning. That bloats the statistic a lot.
      When I "rant" about daggers, it's less about daggers and more about weapon balance in general. Albion has 65+ weapons, yet only 8 or so are actually regularly used in Competative PvP. Then there's about 8 or so good RvR/ZvZ choices with some overlap. That's about 2/3rds the weapons in the game that don't see any use in ZvZ or GvG... afaik, Daggers are the only entire weapon group that is snubbed in both forms of play.

      Just because Daggers are overepresented in solo open world play in strictly PvE gathering doesn't mean it's balanced or even good.
      I understand that there is some prefered weapons, and there is this kind of "meta game" in any game, at any update some weapons seem to be favored; I understand that the daggers seem to be undercompetent in large scale pvp combats, but it doesn't mean that it has no role to play there. Ofc peeps will prefer highly aoe based weapons to burn the hell down of the front line of a group, but there is sometimes a lil donkey who roams with his fkin daggy to backstaby one heal and run. And this seems to be harder in highly clustered group of 20 men, but this is how the game works, on different stratum of combats. And some weapons are more efficient in some of them. I don't see where the wrong is there.
    • The new dagger is insanely powerful. Easily doubles most of the new weapons for single target performance.

      Six second performance at peak (for 6.3):

      4 Autos(125) + 3 Q(274) + 1 E(713) = ~2100 damage every 6s (with Aggressive Rush) = ~350 Sustained DPS before Armor/Food

      For food you have stew or omelette with omelette being the marginally better choice if you can stay in auto range the whole time. Omelette reduces the cooldown on armor sunder to 1.7s which just so happens to be .11s sooner than your second auto. This lets you interrupt part of the AA animation with your next Q. The alternative is that you lose 0.19 seconds every rotation or have to delay your Q, but get the +15% damage from Stew.

      I recommend Aggressive Rush at the moment, but that is largely because I haven't taken the time to calculate the other passives effect on this rotation.

      As much as I think daggers should be bursty single-target it is nice to see a dagger that has sustained DPS as it's defining perk.

      PS. These are all napkin math and do not contain the same level of guarantee that my theory crafting normally would.
    • Except for a weapon over expensive (the new dagger)
      All the Dagger weapon may be a single target high dps but in fact they are not enough to be a dangerous in any type of pvp. 5v5 or Zerg. (except for Ganks with Claws)

      So in the end, if they are really what Elsa said : it require more DPS because right now you are a threat to nobody if there is a healer around, the conditions for the Dmg is too complicated for a very average Burst of dmg, especially is it's the only thing we have to rely on.
    • Psifour schrieb:

      The new dagger is insanely powerful. Easily doubles most of the new weapons for single target performance.

      Six second performance at peak (for 6.3):

      4 Autos(125) + 3 Q(274) + 1 E(713) = ~2100 damage every 6s (with Aggressive Rush) = ~350 Sustained DPS before Armor/Food

      For food you have stew or omelette with omelette being the marginally better choice if you can stay in auto range the whole time. Omelette reduces the cooldown on armor sunder to 1.7s which just so happens to be .11s sooner than your second auto. This lets you interrupt part of the AA animation with your next Q. The alternative is that you lose 0.19 seconds every rotation or have to delay your Q, but get the +15% damage from Stew.

      I recommend Aggressive Rush at the moment, but that is largely because I haven't taken the time to calculate the other passives effect on this rotation.

      As much as I think daggers should be bursty single-target it is nice to see a dagger that has sustained DPS as it's defining perk.

      PS. These are all napkin math and do not contain the same level of guarantee that my theory crafting normally would.
      For how long you can keep this 350 DPS until you have no mana?
    • TheBadOne schrieb:

      Except for a weapon over expensive (the new dagger)
      All the Dagger weapon may be a single target high dps but in fact they are not enough to be a dangerous in any type of pvp. 5v5 or Zerg. (except for Ganks with Claws)

      So in the end, if they are really what Elsa said : it require more DPS because right now you are a threat to nobody if there is a healer around, the conditions for the Dmg is too complicated for a very average Burst of dmg, especially is it's the only thing we have to rely on.
      Warbow's E is at a 10s cooldown. Clarent's E is at a 15s cooldown. Perhaps if Bloodletter's E was at 15s cooldown, we could forgo omelettes, stick in a 15% dmg Beef Stew and be this High single target DPS that's been mentioned. That or increase the armor pierce on the Q so more dmg is done.
    • Gaheris schrieb:

      TheBadOne schrieb:

      Except for a weapon over expensive (the new dagger)
      All the Dagger weapon may be a single target high dps but in fact they are not enough to be a dangerous in any type of pvp. 5v5 or Zerg. (except for Ganks with Claws)

      So in the end, if they are really what Elsa said : it require more DPS because right now you are a threat to nobody if there is a healer around, the conditions for the Dmg is too complicated for a very average Burst of dmg, especially is it's the only thing we have to rely on.
      Warbow's E is at a 10s cooldown. Clarent's E is at a 15s cooldown. Perhaps if Bloodletter's E was at 15s cooldown, we could forgo omelettes, stick in a 15% dmg Beef Stew and be this High single target DPS that's been mentioned. That or increase the armor pierce on the Q so more dmg is done.
      The real problem of the bloodletter is you can burst poeple from 40% to 0-20% (according of what armor they are wearing) the real issue is you have nothing else to bring people by yourself that low in a team fight. You are not a treat and unfortunately except this final dash who is easily counter by alot of defensive spells (fortunately) you have nothing to bring to your team.
      If you are a spears or a clarent or an other melee physical dps you have most of the time a CC (Fling/Multi stun), AOE or extra tankiness to stay in melee range and hit. it's not the case of dagger.
    • If daggers were really such a powerful single target weapon they would be used in top tier gvgs. The truth is that daggers are just trash tiers of other lines.

      For example Sunder Armor is our main dps Q. However, it does less dps than the Axe dps Q, and axes also get a better armor reduction on their W.

      Assassin Spirit is just Spirit Spear, but you have to debuff yourself to use it.

      Ever single W ability in Daggers, except Dash, is gutter tier. Throw Blades is a coned ranged ability that sucks at melee range and has to hit multiple people to be effective, so they put it on a melee class that is focused on single target dmg? Shadows Edge stuns you longer than the target, and pulls you out of the fight completely if you miss. Infiltrate is just gimmicky trash. (Good for exploitinggame machanics though)
    • angrad schrieb:

      If daggers were really such a powerful single target weapon they would be used in top tier gvgs. The truth is that daggers are just trash tiers of other lines.

      For example Sunder Armor is our main dps Q. However, it does less dps than the Axe dps Q, and axes also get a better armor reduction on their W.

      Assassin Spirit is just Spirit Spear, but you have to debuff yourself to use it.

      Ever single W ability in Daggers, except Dash, is gutter tier. Throw Blades is a coned ranged ability that sucks at melee range and has to hit multiple people to be effective, so they put it on a melee class that is focused on single target dmg? Shadows Edge stuns you longer than the target, and pulls you out of the fight completely if you miss. Infiltrate is just gimmicky trash. (Good for exploitinggame machanics though)
      Right, but sunder got buffed, and Edge reworked a bit, so there is a work in balance improvements.
      Still, feel free for suggestions.
      How about Throwing Blades to apply sunder armor instead of damage increase?
    • gmatagmis schrieb:

      angrad schrieb:

      If daggers were really such a powerful single target weapon they would be used in top tier gvgs. The truth is that daggers are just trash tiers of other lines.

      For example Sunder Armor is our main dps Q. However, it does less dps than the Axe dps Q, and axes also get a better armor reduction on their W.

      Assassin Spirit is just Spirit Spear, but you have to debuff yourself to use it.

      Ever single W ability in Daggers, except Dash, is gutter tier. Throw Blades is a coned ranged ability that sucks at melee range and has to hit multiple people to be effective, so they put it on a melee class that is focused on single target dmg? Shadows Edge stuns you longer than the target, and pulls you out of the fight completely if you miss. Infiltrate is just gimmicky trash. (Good for exploitinggame machanics though)
      Right, but sunder got buffed, and Edge reworked a bit, so there is a work in balance improvements.Still, feel free for suggestions.
      How about Throwing Blades to apply sunder armor instead of damage increase?
      Sunder armor was nerfed... IDK where, or what you play, but Sunder Armor got a 30% nerf this patch. It use to be nice to stack up then use a mage cowl, or some other heavy damage ability, and it would chunk someone down so fast. Now it is a cool button masher that does almost nothing, but is still better than debuffing yourself.

      Shadowedge still stuns you longer than your target. No way to really sugar coat this one. It is just trash.

      That change would be a nerf to throw blades. lol Especially since they nerfed Sunder Armor. Throw blades should just work in reverse. If all three hit one target then you get the max buff, if one or two hit the same target you get one tick of the buff.
    • I main daggers and would say the new patch is nothing but a buff. Mage cowl builds were never good, you're melee dps, cheating yourself out of a defensive or more versatile ability for the sake of more damage is pointless, especially when the daggers have so much single target damage as it is.

      The important thing about the new changes is the cd reduction of sunder armor from 3 > 2 secs and making shadow edge a stun. Here's why:

      With T7 omelette and full quick thinker passives on a 3 piece leather set sunder armor is only a 1.56 sec cooldown. That gives you the opportunity to press Q then do a single auto-attack, press Q then do a single auto-attack and repeat as needed. Weapon passives can be set to benefit the weapon/armor worn.

      Shadow edge stunning affords you free damage on an opponent without being at risk yourself from that enemy (huge improvement) and allows you to *guaranteed* land abilities such as slit throat on the dagger pair without fear of the opponent simply ice blocking or dodge rolling to negate damage. Which was a HUGE problem before given the dagger pair's cast time.

      To go along with this I always use the assassin's hood. With the CD reductions I spoke of earlier it means Shadow edge is up again immediately after meditation, abilities like slit throat share this, and brings otherwise long cd spells like disembowel to a mere 13 second cd. It can be used offensively/defensively to allow for better chase/escape. Making it versatile - something hugely important for the dagger line. You will have a bad time if you try to be a one trick pony damage build with the daggers. This also affords the use of howl, a longer lasting AOE slow and attack speed slow that can stack nicely with other spells such as the hammer line's slowing charge to squeeze more out of it.

      The new sunder armor cd makes you more effective at actively engaging in more front line pvp however in group fights you want to be punishing people in your back line or diving theirs with given space.

      Before daggers could be kited around by bows all day, now they have no chance.

      For me, the best set for dagger pair is and will always be the full leather assassin's armor. It's practically what it was made for.

      For claws I use, assassin's hood, mercenary jacket, and hunter boots. Poison pots for extra damage and better healing with bloodlust.

      Oh and did I mention that the cd reduction from meditate also applies to potions? meaning you have more poisons to throw, or defensive potions up way more that the enemy, important for diving a healer after he's already wasted his gigantic/resistance potion after your first feigned attack.

      One final point on the new sunder armor cd is that at only 1.56 seconds cd you can spam it on multiple people for multiple stacks if you play it right, helping your team do more damage and giving you more targets for your E ability.

      Assassin's spirit in my mind will always be better for PVE with attach speed build, or open world for open world group ganking where there are more opportunities to find an opening.

      clips.twitch.tv/RealNaivePigeonDxCat
      I messed up in that fight big time with activating bloodlust too soon, and he got some cheeky damage off in the choke before we really started the fight. Versatility > More damage.
      *Dagger Pair Main* twitch.tv/nomadponcho - [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/229869575] <- Fun times
    • To follow up on the new artifact daggers, please stop trying to make the daggers the same as every other weapon, they are not, and should not be so.

      In zvz's the fact that the damage ability is a dash, and you can get it off twice with given stacks means you can literally eliminate specific targets during your teams cc and AOE followup. You have to be the one to find the healer and nuke them before getting back to your team and waiting for your next opportunity. Can't find the healer? Go for anyone in cloth and do your job. Just make sure they are an important target and you will help the fight in a huge way.

      In all fairness, with the current state of the game where lag means people just spam every AOE they have into the mess of rubber-banding enemies, there is simply no chance to do this. The daggers aren't the problem for zvz's, the games performance restricting their intended role is.
      *Dagger Pair Main* twitch.tv/nomadponcho - [https://www.twitch.tv/videos/229869575] <- Fun times
    • Your post relies around the need to use all cooldown passives, an omelette, a cooldown hood, and a mercenary jacket to be effective. Not to mention Shadow Edge which is still not good. It's easily missed and more frustrating than fun to use. Whereas warbows 10s E doesn't seem to have that problem.

      You say "Versatility > More damage." I agree. We should be able to choose different builds, foods, etc. The devs are saying daggers are supposed to be high single target dmg weapons, but we don't do the most dmg with our Qs. We should be able to burst down single targets, if we're not meant to be doing cc/aoe. But other weapon tiers can burst people down faster and better than we can, because in most cases we can't use our E's to do that. We have to hold onto them and use them once in a fight.

      Right now, as you've stated, we're forced into using omelettes and cooldown related passives and abilities and items at the expense of using Beef Stews for more dmg or Beef Sandwiches for more health. We're pigeon holed because of how important cooldown is for our abilities. If Sunder Armor did more dmg/reduced more armor perhaps we could live with this. Or if Disembowel was 20s instead of 30s, Lunging Stabs 15s instead of 20s, etc. Warbow's E being on a 10s cooldown is ridiculous in comparison.

      They already nerfed invis on assassin jacket months ago. Now names fade in on the screen nearly instantly. And horses move 10% faster.

      @H4n1baL
    • RockLobster schrieb:

      Shadari schrieb:

      not so long ago someone made an overview over the most weapon used. i think they extracted all weapons of all kills (killer and killed) within a time frame.
      to ours surprise, daggers where the most used weapon by a wide margin.
      since that day i kinda stopped listening to ppl ranting about how bad daggers are. they can't be to bad if they are so popular.
      Albion has 65+ weapons, yet only 8 or so are actually regularly used in Competative PvP. Then there's about 8 or so good RvR/ZvZ choices with some overlap. That's about 2/3rds the weapons in the game that don't see any use in ZvZ or GvG... afaik, Daggers are the only entire weapon group that is snubbed in both forms of play.

      You are partially correct. Weapon balance could be better.

      That said however, people are copycats who follow the meta without creativity. And the meta is and can be questionable. If the meta was for people to stop breathing (and die) they would.

      I've personally played plenty of times AGAINST the meta and won with bizarre weapon combinations, and I have seen others use bizarre weapons and still win.

      People focus way to much on weapon balance, that once they see something out of the meta they don't know how to counter it. And that is beautiful and satisfying and you should try it.

      Again, to conclude balance could be better, but that's not a reason not to play the game or quit or "Cry" about it.