I'll really explain why people are leaving, and it is not Arena ;)

  • I'll really explain why people are leaving, and it is not Arena ;)

    I posted this in the arena thread but felt this covered a number of important points worth discussing than the narrow views I seem to constantly see from some players on this forum:

    *(from previous post)...... I had a few guildies leave because some have kids and such now (job with long hours). They tried AO, thought it could eventually become good but knew they would have to spend more time than they had testing and trying stuff. Basically a combination of not enough interesting stuff with how long it would take for them to feel reasonable in PvP (they could not play much, maybe 10 hours a week tops). And the game does throw you against players who do play a lot, understand the subtle details of PvP combat and have all the 'right' builds. (also, don't use 'difficult'. Nothing in AO is 'difficult', could maybe use 'challenging' but it is really a matter of gaining experience which some are better at than others but it will take a certain amount of time to 'get it' for new players).

    * A few who could play more left because the game is not solo/small guild friendly. Some players here do solo but definitely tough for soloers. This is not something I feel needs to be 'fixed' but it will cause some players to leave.

    * A few who like PvE more than PvP left because there is not much to do PvE wise (islands lack a ton of depth, for them at least. Gathering and crafting is too simple. City plots not worth it unless at Caer, etc.) Not sure this ever changes but I feel SBI could do themselves a favor by having a more interesting gathering and crafting system. I think they kept it simple for balance reasons but they could at least have more interesting potions&food, at a minimum. And I can think of a lot of things that would just be fun to craft and use (like siege engines, basically mounts you slowly ride around and can shoot stuff) etc.

    * And a few left because end-game is poorly implemented. Clearly beta guild dominated and maybe that will never change, so why stick around for a non-existent end-game? (the 20v20 fights, which also suffer from performance/lag). You can say that they 'didn't have whatever' but end-game is unfair and with all the other issues what should be the main selling point for AO (IMO) is actually driving away players.

    I solo now and I don't play much. I don't progress much. I don't open world PvP at all atm (barely did any anyways as I was learning game) (this account is not my main, I don't think in any game like AO that you should post with your main, if you can help it!). If stuff improves I'll play more, get into an alliance, etc.

    ===> Really no idea what SBI plans. Some players complain about instanced stuff and given that it is supposed to be a 'sandbox' they have an argument to make... but open world would pull players to the open world if it was fun/exciting/(advanced their chars). If players spend time in instances (which are pretty weak, expos boring/repetitive. arena very simple) then it is because the open world does not offer enough. And beta players bring up how active it was in beta... well in beta no one cared if they lost their stuff, now they do. That is a big issue with beta testing these types of MMOs, in beta everyone is testing and not caring how much they win or lose. NOW THEY DO CARE, and suddenly you don't get those fun, random scrappy PvP fights anymore. They either are not out and about taking the risk or they just run away.

    There is also a distinct disconnect from 'being out and about' and end-game goals. This is really bad IMO since there is no 'carrot' to keep a player going after say, a few tough PvP deaths and gear loss. No carrot to keep a gatherer who gets ganked a few times from heading back out tomorrow. No exterior goals to get players to roam around the world, beyond 'skill building', which is lame, skills should just build from doing stuff rather than what they are => a painful grind.

    AO is Fractured but Whole. So very little synergy between many activities. The one thing that is done well are the HGs and SBI should work hard to make them work better (so many simple requests for changes that should be done immediately) and also to expand upon them get a wider variety going. Arena is fine for practice but if they had a bunch of different types of HGs popping up (based upon how many in the zone) then players would spend more time in the open-world and HGs, between the 'end-game 5v5 and 20v20'. This would buy much more time for SBI to get it all 'synergized' and to add more stuff in other parts/aspects of the game. => For instanced, a new type of HG could be the ARENA HG, sizes 1, 3, 5 and 10! Rewards could be regular PvP fame, maybe some random drop off the black market. etc. In yellow zone, you randomly drop 1 item, in red 2 items and in black all items. I definitely think they should have more variety here and that would be fun/exciting/rewarding while they fix stuff. And if they did it well it would not need to be instanced, you just walk inside the area and it randomly makes teams based upon the party setup (like 2 parties of 5 walk in and then 10 randoms and you get your 10v10). Then others could stand around and watch the action as well.

    Oooo, even better, an ongoing 10v10. As players leave, more are allowed to enter. Lasts for 30 minutes, each player with the most kills/damage/healing/damage absorbed/assists gets a reward. No parties allowed, just randomly selects sides and off you go! A real gladiator feel. Shows up every 2 hours. I would love this, heh.

    anyways, the more you get new players involved in PvP (not 'being punished with beat downs by beta players), the more likely they will work towards end-game, stick around, etc. Cause they will realize that it is fun and worth it.
  • Dragnon wrote:

    Can we get a TLDR? Nobody is reading this since nobody knows you.
    If you just read roughly the first word of each line you can get a feel for it:

    they had them throw builds of new

    but leave

    for ever system potions engines

    and performance issues

    i anyways post

    really boring bring lose

    gatherer around

    ao be instanced fame items

    fun inside randoms

    oooo player randomly

    anyways the it
  • - They stuffed release. Quite a few friends quit when not getting LP and others did, giving a HUGE divide and making founder pack pretty pointless. They gave back 'some' premium time. But it was still pretty unplayable for 3 weeks after that. Def killed all the hype, many friends abused me for bringing up Albion in convo instead of being excited.

    - The game ran better in beta. It's sooo laggy, soo often. Even last week, I got killed twice by a T4 wolf, in T6 gear. Due to lag. Couldn't even run away as I rubber band back, and fall over dead.
    It's doing better than it did, but. It's far from having 'trust' you won't randomly lag so ya can't tell what's going on and lose all ya stuff.

    - No solo/small content is fun most the time. Even Expo's and Arena.
    People get in to exp, swap gear to the T4 they want to train, esp tanks. Then they abuse others when they stand in red N die.
    Arena, is 'ok' till you get put up against pre-builts. 2 healers, and a anti-other healer taking 3rd slot kinda 'required'.

    - Takes longer to get to/into content than it takes to do it. Even Expo's. Often 15-25mins que as a healer for half the day. Can be 20mins in que, then cancel because you were bashing a tree, or got bit by a wolf while accepting.
    Other content is WORSE. Need the 'right group setup' all to travel to the 'right area'. 1 'core players' kid wakes up, or wife agro, and that was a hour wasted.

    - Honor system doesn't do anything but be slightly frustrating.

    - High end content, dominated by same people since beta. Even stuff like fixing defender bonus, won't matter much now. There's such a 'power/wealth' divide. There's just years of catching up.

    - Invite a friend F'ing INSULTING! It's ~7.50 to get a 'week trial', when it's ~10 to get a month subby. Then ya friend also needs to buy the game & subby. It's a rip off for everyone involved! There's NO trust in getting rewards for recruiting friends, ya F'ed that up for us in the past and never fixed it for most of us.

    Soo, it's hard to recommend it to others. It's expensive, it's laggy, it's about 75% setup time/boring time for anything that's fun, and it's HIGHLY reliant on other players.
  • Population in this game is dying of for similar reasons as other full loot PvP games such as Mortal Online and Darkfall. Most of the PvP in these kind of games turns out to be ganking because in full loot PvP games you want to mitigate the risk of losing as it is so detrimental. So how do you mitigate the risk? By ganging up with others and gank people. Even fights is too risky so most people stay clear of it.

    This is a fundamental flaw in all full loot PvP games as people really don't want to die so you get very asymmetrical PvP fights, 3v1, 5v1, 10v3 etc. Problem is that the people who get ganked by large don't find it fun. Why would they? Being ganked gives you very little room to fight back or even survive so it is effing shit to lose that crafted gear that you spent an hour gathering for. And if that happens enough times, eventually you don't find the game fun and leave.

    What you then have left in the game are gankers who are trying to gank other gankers. But since ganking is inherently low risk, they will actually avoid fighting other gank teams. Leading to less PvP and eventually gankers will also leave due to lack of people to gank.

    This leaves only the die-hard fans left, which is pretty much what you see in Darkfall and Mortal Online. Full loot PvP is simply a design that doesn't work well. It is inherently flawed because it leads to minimising risks which often means gank-style PvP at the expense of more evenly matched fights.

    Eve works because, if you pay attention to local chat and directional scanners and keep yourself aligned to warp, you can minimize the risk from getting ganked and still enjoy the game. Albion Online doesn't have any of that so if you are outnumbered 3 to 1 or more then you are most likely going to die.

    The solution to this is to have the equivalent of warping out in Eve and what was implemented in both UO and Asheron's Call, which is a recall spell which allows you to get out from a bad ganking situation. But ofcourse this game is too "hardcore" for that and as such will end up with the same population levels as Mortal and Darkfall Online.
  • Derrant wrote:

    *(from previous post)...... I had a few guildies leave because some have kids and such now (job with long hours). They tried AO, thought it could eventually become good but knew they would have to spend more time than they had testing and trying stuff. Basically a combination of not enough interesting stuff with how long it would take for them to feel reasonable in PvP (they could not play much, maybe 10 hours a week tops). And the game does throw you against players who do play a lot, understand the subtle details of PvP combat and have all the 'right' builds. (also, don't use 'difficult'. Nothing in AO is 'difficult', could maybe use 'challenging' but it is really a matter of gaining experience which some are better at than others but it will take a certain amount of time to 'get it' for new players).
    I see this a lot. This preoccupation with IP/Specialization.

    Just be a Mace Tank. Get up to 40 Maces, Get up to 30 in Plate Chest, Plate or Leather Boots and Plate or Leather Hats and show up to any form of content you want with fuck all care as to your specialization.

    For Hellgates/GvG - Pick up a Heavy mace and don't be in a top 5 Mercia guild until you get at least 60 in armors. 7.2 is comparable to 8.1, price-wise.
    For Ganking/ZvZ - Pick up a Morning Star.

    Believe me - your damage is going to suck no matter what your specialization is. You aren't there for damage. You're there to smash E on a healer after your curse sunders or set up a W on a choke in GvG/Hellgates... and there to suck in 5-20 people and root them in a small area in ZvZ.

    Even ganking, between Knight's Armor or Graveplate and Morning Star, you have great lockdown. Just make sure you're with 1-2 people who are solid damage and you'll blow kids up.

    I know it's not an ideal solution as most people want to play damage, but with this load out, I can play the game once a week and still be a valuable asset in my guild. And barring massive mechanics changes, if I went AFK for a year and came back, I'd still easily get into any guild I want... because who's going to say: "Nah, we're full up on Mace Tanks. Fuck off."

    The post was edited 3 times, last by RockLobster ().

  • RockLobster wrote:

    I see this a lot. This preoccupation with IP/Specialization.
    Just be a Mace Tank. Get up to 40 Maces, Get up to 30 in Plate Chest, Plate or Leather Boots and Plate or Leather Hats and show up to any form of content you want with fuck all care as to your specialization.

    For Hellgates/GvG - Pick up a Heavy mace and don't be in a top 5 Mercia guild until you get at least 60 in armors. 7.2 is comparable to 8.1, price-wise.
    For Ganking/ZvZ - Pick up a Morning Star.

    Believe me - your damage is going to suck no matter what your specialization is. You aren't there for damage. You're there to smash E on a healer after your curse sunders or set up a W on a choke in GvG/Hellgates... and there to suck in 5-20 people and root them in a small area in ZvZ.

    Even ganking, between Knight's Armor or Graveplate and Morning Star, you have great lockdown. Just make sure you're with 1-2 people who are solid damage and you'll blow kids up.

    I know it's not an ideal solution as most people want to play damage, but with this load out, I can play the game once a week and still be a valuable asset in my guild. And barring massive mechanics changes, if I went AFK for a year and came back, I'd still easily get into any guild I want... because who's going to say: "Nah, we're full up on Mace Tanks. Fuck off."
    They are already gone, but feel free to start a thread where veterans can discuss stuff for new players.

    This thread is about why people have left. And possibly still leaving.

    => I'll add that the community is full of elitist jerks which usually tell new players to f- off and quit, or try to tell them exactly how to play rather than explaining how stuff works.
  • Derrant wrote:

    They are already gone, but feel free to start a thread where veterans can discuss stuff for new players.

    This thread is about why people have left. And possibly still leaving.

    => I'll add that the community is full of elitist jerks which usually tell new players to f- off and quit, or try to tell them exactly how to play rather than explaining how stuff works.
    Fair enough.

    Considering these reasons further, I do agree with a lot of these points, particularly what's required to stay competative - the time commitments, the requirements for large groups and tons and tons of frankly terrible PvE content. At some point, I remember SBI saying that they wanted gear/skill to not matter much and that a new player who was skilled could pick up the game immediately and have an impact if he was good enough.

    Somewhere along the line, they went so far away from that goal as for it to become unrecognizable. A hardcore player who picks his weapon, gets 100/100 and maybe even dips into a 2nd or 3rd in his weapon tree has a staggering advantage over a new player even before considering gear. Korn broke that down once - something like each 100 IP adds 9% over the last with the effect being cumulative. IE: 9% more damage for 400 IP over 300, 9% more damage for 500 IP over 400. Assuming lower level players are probably going to be starting a minimum of 2 tiers gear down, you're easily looking at a 450 IP difference - roughly 47.5% more damage. And that's not even factoring greater hit points, mitigation and CC resistance... or just the fact the player will be much more skilled, having played for so many hundreds of hours.

    Like with so many aspects of this game, they've lost sight of their vision. Now, new players are just mathematically regulated to canon fodder for 1-2 months before they catch up (assuming they can even find fame farm groups willing to carry them 4 hours a day, 7 days a week... which, I suspect, will get very rare as this game ages and most players cap one weapon and decide they'd rather have an abortion through their mouths than go fame farm again).

    Really not hopeful of this game appealing to any new players... unless they play a super-high utility tank where 95% of their value comes from damage-less cooldowns or something radically changes.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by RockLobster ().

  • Mardonius wrote:

    Eve works because, if you pay attention to local chat and directional scanners and keep yourself aligned to warp, you can minimize the risk from getting ganked and still enjoy the game. Albion Online doesn't have any of that so if you are outnumbered 3 to 1 or more then you are most likely going to die.
    Thats not why "EvE works", the reason is that EvE was the first of its kind and has retained a lot of this old and fanatic player-base, by offering a large and complex game-system. There stats regarding new player retention are abysmal and if EvE would relaunch today no one knows how there play-base would look like. The other major reason is that EvE is multiple times more complex and complicated than AO, so if you are into this type of game you have the feeling that there is always something new to-do. From a production/industrial/market aspect AO is more complex than most MMO's, but lacks any of the deep and "mysterious" aspects of EvE. Try produce a T3 strategic cruiser from scratch, than you understand what i mean and how rewarding this can be, to players that enjoy this. Many PvP players have no clue how and where there ships/modules come from and how they are built.

    Mardonius wrote:

    The solution to this is to have the equivalent of warping out in Eve and what was implemented in both UO and Asheron's Call, which is a recall spell which allows you to get out from a bad ganking situation. But ofcourse this game is too "hardcore" for that and as such will end up with the same population levels as Mortal and Darkfall Online.
    The only problem is that Jita suicide ganking stats largely mute this point. The bulk of kills are happening in highsec (yellow/blue) via suicide ganking and in nullsec (black) via mutually agreed and wanted wars. In EvE if someone wants to kill you, you are dead and there is not much you can do about it. The two major reasons you wont get suicide ganked is by simply flying a "worthless" ship/cargo, so that the ganking costs are higher than what could drop or fly a stealthy ship, that can hardly be targeted.

    So one major difference is that ship/power progression in EvE is more horizontal, while AO is a pyramid. So its way easier to fly a cheap ship in EvE, with very little risk of getting ganked and still be competitive in PvP.

    Regarding OP: I left because the market/production chain was way to simplistic for my taste and the PvP combat felt clunky and boring, while the world felt copy&pasted without any real highlights or decent PvE gameplay. The game was just too grindy for my taste and everything seemed to-be setup for pushing guilds and highly organized gameplay, which is incompatible with my game time chunks and the amount of commitment i'm willing to invest these days. The same is true for EvE btw, it just became a second job, which is not what i want to invest these days.
  • Personal reasons i left:
    1) Time investment. Due to job and having other hobbies, i just unable to play many hours a day as i used in past. Meanwhile, Albion, actually requires quite big time investment and big amount of it is "chores". Sure, you can play it casually - if you play with credit card.
    2) Lack of solo content. For above reason, i currently not intend to actively part in guild - but outside of guild, there is no reason to play.
    3) Lack of long term goals/aims/content.

    But more important than why quit, would be why not return:
    1) Lack of clear future aims of game development.

    I would put up with everything and even find a time to invest if it was worth it - but it doesnt seem to be. Albion is just to shallow at current state, and i dont see Devs actively trying to develop it to make a game worth staying for years. The last two updates were disappointing and lack of plans shown grim.

    Show me that in a year, Albion will be entirely new game worth playing and i`ll return NOW.
  • The game is designed ultra simple to cross the gamit of systems. A game designed just for PC's will always be more complex and graphically immersive that one played on phones as well.

    The extremely detrimental launch of the live game, was actually a calculated fraud.
    They sold approximately 150,000 units. Pre Sold... Meaning they knew roughly how big the player base would be. Yet the game can barely cope with 20,000 players online even now.
    They should and could have done multiple fixes and preemptive actions to make those numbers work and be playable. But, they had everyone's money in hand in advance, so they chose another option.

    They said all game populations drop off significantly after launch. This is just a side stepping nonsense.
    Some games grow, when they are launched properly, providing what they advertised and represented as being the game they were purchasing.

    They don't put in a lot more expensive hardware and servers. (Yes they could have done more servers in this example, even though they said they only wanted 1). They could have doubled, tripled, quadrupled the map size very easily, with multiple copy and paste continents and then have a tectonic event that returns the game to a smaller scale when population stabilizes at a smaller level. But that costs money.
    Instead of doing that expense, they chose at the highest level, to Not do this, to launch with a game that was knowingly and woefully inadequate to cope with the customer base they had accepted sales and their money from.

    Legally they should have stopped accepting purchases, if they knew they could not provide the product and service as advertised. But they didn't, they kept selling and selling way past this point.
    Now that would normally be grounds for a legal action, based on misleading misrepresentation of product and service under various laws, EU and global. So how do you avoid that?
    How do you avoid a legal action requiring the company to refund all the customers demanding a refund for providing a faulty product? You need a smokescreen and to provide multiple opportunities over a period of time for the vast numbers of dissatisfied customers to leave without making the legal challenge and or require the actual refunds. To give up, because it isn't their fault.

    So, was there an external event(s) that acted as a smokescreen, a diversion from how the game could not possibly cope with the customers who purchased the game, compared to the hardware and possible provision of the game?
    During the DDOS attacks that occurred for quite some time, people even then, were asking, why on earth can you not defend against these continual attacks? Answer is of course, they were desired. I would even bet, that SBI ordered them and gave them the open window to crawl in and do their damage.

    Perfect smokescreen for 90% of all the customers that purchased to give up and leave, to not organize a class action to demand refunds for a known and predictable fail of their product. The top guy (or shareholders) retain at a guess $30 Million in cash, leave some cash in the company to fund small scale sustainable development.
    The population is now at a point that the hardware and systems can cope with it (even with lag and flaws ongoing).

    Would anyone do that? Would anyone organize such a sustainable pathway of flaws and what looks like incompetence to make $20 - $30+ Million cash. I am sure there are people out there that have done much the same thing many many times over for much less.

    Oh and BTW, the pentagon was attacked an hour after the 2 towers, by the Government, using it as a smokescreen, to cover up the fact that the military had lost US$2 trillion dollars, as reported on TV the day before by Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The only portion of the Pentagon hit, was the accounting section, which destroyed all the computers and files to trace the missing funds. And no one is talking about it for fear of being called unpatriotic and a conspiracy nutjob, when in fact its a real crime that they got away with. Yes they!
    .
  • Me and my friends stopped playing because we can barely find someone to gank... the arena isn´t attractive, there are mobas for it, the lack of living in open world is killing albion.
    player: Joe Zhudarak
    Games: Shroud of the Avatar; Albion Online, Crowfall, Gloria Victis and Life is Feudal MMO
  • joezhudarak wrote:

    Me and my friends stopped playing because we can barely find someone to gank... the arena isn´t attractive, there are mobas for it, the lack of living in open world is killing albion.
    It's kinda funny that the open world gankers who claim to be the main playerbase of AO cannot find anyone to fight.

    It they really were as significant player group they say they could just fight each other and have a neverending fun.

    Instead they are just leaving, because there is noone to gank.
    'Cacatio Matutina Est Tamquam Medicina'
    X/
  • Targun wrote:

    It's kinda funny that the open world gankers who claim to be the main playerbase of AO cannot find anyone to fight.

    It they really were as significant player group they say they could just fight each other and have a neverending fun.
    Theyre not interested in fighting each other. Theyre only interested in 8v1.
    Midgard
    T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
    T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
    T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
  • Targun wrote:

    joezhudarak wrote:

    Me and my friends stopped playing because we can barely find someone to gank... the arena isn´t attractive, there are mobas for it, the lack of living in open world is killing albion.
    It's kinda funny that the open world gankers who claim to be the main playerbase of AO cannot find anyone to fight.
    It they really were as significant player group they say they could just fight each other and have a neverending fun.

    Instead they are just leaving, because there is noone to gank.
    Actually that is, one of the many things wrong with ganking, it relies on the other party being unable to fight back so therefore gankers would never attack other ganking parties as they would be able to fight back.

    And the reason there are so few to gank is because of full loot PvP. Fewer and fewer people don't want to risk putting themselves at risk of ganking due to losing all their gear. Full loot PvP and ganking is the worst combination of any MMO and in a game that has even less escape mechanics than Eve, that is just pure fail game design.