Joseph Overall Weapon Balance by the Numbers

    • Joseph Overall Weapon Balance by the Numbers

      So here is a list that shows the number of players who got over 500k kill fame last week, according to Albion's leaderboards. By this point in time most people should have been able to refame to where they needed for their weapons if they were particularly interested in doing so. This metric should give an idea of A. What players are using and B. What they are using effectively. This metric ignores GvG (although slightly prefers it due to higher kill fame) vs Open world, which means it should show overall balance/use throughout all of albions playstyles.

      Dagger - 126 (Most of these are probably OW players, I still don't see it being used effectively in competitive 5v5. However what we can glean from this is that there are MANY players running daggers and many players doing a good job at it.)
      Frost Staff - 92 (Recently took a nerf, but still very popular, good in all playstyles)
      Spear - 89 (Recently changed, still by far one of the most popular weapon choices)
      Nature - 82 (Healing staff, need for most game objectives, so this number should be naturally high)
      Quarterstaff - 75 (Used in a variety of ways, tanking and ganking)
      Curse Staff - 70 (The most popular Support DPS)
      Sword - 65
      Holy Staff - 63 (Less than Nature Staff, but still not so much that it's alarming)
      Bow - 61 (Like daggers, almost entirely open world)
      Mace - 51 (Likely the most popular tank weapon, as there are several quarterstaves which are not tanks)
      Hammer - 39 (Least popular tank weapon, but not really far from the others)
      Ax - 35 (The least popular melee weapon)
      Crossbow - 27 (Was (is?) popular in the 5v5 meta, not used particularly often in the open world)
      Fire Staff - 20 (By far the least popular ranged dps and vastly overshadowed by the very similar frost staff)
      Arcane - 9 (By far the most alarming number on this list, there is not really a place for arcane anywhere in the game and that's what these numbers show)


      Of these, the ones which I believe need the most attention are: Frost staves (still too popular), Spears (also still too popular), Axes (only artifacts are used), Fire Staves (overshadowed by frost) and Arcane Staves.

      Another note, in terms of overall role balance:
      154 Healers/support
      165 Tanks (This number likely has some dps/gank quarterstaves that were counted as tanks)
      585 DPS
    • Few thoughts:

      1. Dagger is very surprising considering how terrible it is in most forms of PvP, but it's great people are using it. Devs actually have a reason to balance it and make it actually decent in competitive PvP.

      2. Frost vs. Fire. I don't know how many threads have to be made about it... but when you take two weapons, make them both have a comparable damage, and then give one hardly any CC and the other some of the best CC in the game... who the fuck is going to play the one with no CC?

      3. Arcane, I'm not too concerned about its numbers being low - I believe Arcane is effective, but it's just so "out there" that most players don't get it nor do they want to get it. Some of those who play Arcane like bringing something to the table a lot of folks don't understand.

      4. Spear, Frost, Curse, Sword - Joseph changes did nothing to shake up the meta... I suspect because they had top tier Mercia players advising on the balance and, of course, they're going to advocate for the weapons they've already leveled not to change much to insure the meta isn't shaken up at all.

      I agree with your list on what needs to be looked at, but as a Dagger player, I would absolutely advocate for them despite (or maybe even in light) of those numbers. So many people use daggers, yet they have nothing else to do with them outside of open world content.
    • RockLobster schrieb:

      1. Dagger is very surprising considering how terrible it is in most forms of PvP, but it's great people are using it. Devs actually have a reason to balance it and make it actually decent in competitive PvP.
      pretty sure this is due to claws being #1 weapon for ganking. Every gang/group has one, and even any solo gankers that are left out there - also use them...

      There are however a couple of interesting Bloodletter HG builds that are very effective...
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;
      Mining T8 in enemy WT solo
    • Going by kill fame is the most ignorant, generalist, and pointless statistic you could ever do.

      Just because 20 man groups in t4 run claws and get kill fame doesn't mean the dagger line is OK. The dagger line is terrible in group fights, ok in 1v1, and perhaps a top choice for gatherers (thanks to bloodletter, but alternatives exist). You have players that are getting level 70 daggers who uninstall that day after figuring out how much of a joke shadow edge is.

      Daggers need a buff or rework. And they need it bad.

      I like how you left no commentary for sword- can't stir the pot when you're a mod i take it. We all know sword is OP as fck right now with its new OP 500 damage AOE W skill which also roots. I've seen clarant blade down entire groups with one w+e combo.

      I think a TON of people played bow back in the day. The game almost encourages it early on, which probably attributed to the loss of players, as they realized their main weapon has no use for relevant content.

      May as well delete arcane weapons from the game
    • Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Going by kill fame is the most ignorant, generalist, and pointless statistic you could ever do.
      Yes I agree it is a very generalist statistic (that's why I included comments, to attempt to read into the numbers a bit. I was also planning on looking at the killboards to find out which weapons the top fame people were using per weapon branch, but that proved too time consuming for me.) I'm not sure how this is "ignorant" and what other statistics would you propose looking at? I believe this is worth looking at, even in the general sense because people will choose weapons based on A. what they like B. what they think is good, and attaining a certain threshold of fame shows C. a degree of time investment and success at doing so. Determining how much of the numbers are based off A B or C is the difficult part. For example the 120 daggers may have played them because A, they like them. (I believe this is the case for bows, largely because of other MMOs)

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Just because 20 man groups in t4 run claws and get kill fame doesn't mean the dagger line is OK. The dagger line is terrible in group fights, ok in 1v1, and perhaps a top choice for gatherers (thanks to bloodletter, but alternatives exist).


      Daggers need a buff or rework. And they need it bad.
      I'd agree daggers aren't good in group content, that's why I said most of them are probably in open world and I said as much in this thread here: A list of underpowered weapons and skills

      I left off several daggers because they were being reworked in joseph, but I still believe most of them aren't really viable.

      That said, I did find that statistic rather surprising but who am I to tell the 120 people playing daggers they're doing it wrong or the game designers that one of the most fame generating weapons needs to be playable in OW and 5v5 content (I also mentioned that Xbows are used often in 5v5 but hardly in OW). Is there room for daggers to improve? Yes. Does it need a major overhaul? It depends on what the game designers want the weapon to do.


      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      I like how you left no commentary for sword- We all know sword is OP as fck right now with its new OP 500 damage AOE W skill which also roots. I've seen clarant blade down entire groups with one w+e combo.
      I actually think that swords are the most balanced weapon in the game (in terms of the being able to deliver on what the weapon should be able to do). I'd like to see the other weapons in the game boosted to match the sword (or in the case of Frost and spear, nerfed down to it's level. I actually still believe that the gameplay on the sword isn't really "smooth" and that so far the only weapons like that are the spear, frost and hammer and mace.

      This is however personal opinion, and why I didn't write anything about it. There's also no a whole lot to read into it, my comment would have been something like (A midling popular melee weapon that works well in open world and great in 5v5.)

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      can't stir the pot when you're a mod i take it.
      My status as a Forum Mod has no influence on my opinion on the game design or balance. In general comments like these tend to deter me from giving my own feedback on the game, however I also believe that feedback is best received when it is constructive and unbiased. As such I do my best to provide reasonable feedback on the game and as I'm only one person I expect that many people (devs and players) will disagree. My sole goal on the forum is however is to generate positive discussion. The feedback section of the forum is personally my favourite (both reading and writing) so I hope to continue posting here so long as I can drive that positive discussion.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      I think a TON of people played bow back in the day. The game almost encourages it early on, which probably attributed to the loss of players, as they realized their main weapon has no use for relevant content.

      Endymion schrieb:

      (Like daggers, almost entirely open world)
      It would seem that we agree on this point.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      May as well delete arcane weapons from the game
      Conceptually Arcane is actually one of my favourite weapons in the game. It simply falls short in alot of areas and care rarely do what it's intended to do (personal opinion). There are virtually no real support weapons in the game (Curse, Carrion, and Healing staffs are the only ones which really fit that role) which means that there still ought to be room in the game for a weapon which can do it well.
    • Endymion schrieb:

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Just because 20 man groups in t4 run claws and get kill fame doesn't mean the dagger line is OK. The dagger line is terrible in group fights, ok in 1v1, and perhaps a top choice for gatherers (thanks to bloodletter, but alternatives exist).
      I'd agree daggers aren't good in group content, that's why I said most of them are probably in open world and I said as much in this thread here: A list of underpowered weapons and skills
      I left off several daggers because they were being reworked in joseph, but I still believe most of them aren't really viable.

      That said, I did find that statistic rather surprising but who am I to tell the 120 people playing daggers they're doing it wrong or the game designers that one of the most fame generating weapons needs to be playable in OW and 5v5 content (I also mentioned that Xbows are used often in 5v5 but hardly in OW). Is there room for daggers to improve? Yes. Does it need a major overhaul? It depends on what the game designers want the weapon to do.


      I'm sure that over half those 120 people will straight up tell you that they have their daggers for ganking (claws or BL) Which they quickly put back in the bank before doing any real, relevant content. I've only met 3 people who seriously main daggers as their weapon of choice, and only 1 who attempts to use them in GvG (Nalia from warlegend)
    • RockLobster schrieb:

      3. Arcane, I'm not too concerned about its numbers being low - I believe Arcane is effective, but it's just so "out there" that most players don't get it nor do they want to get it. Some of those who play Arcane like bringing something to the table a lot of folks don't understand.
      I'm fully invested in Arcane at this point (only 50 mastery in 1h so far tho) and completely agree. My biggest gripe with the line is that while it affords you many options for builds, you then have to level the armor to help with that build. Part of the utility in the Arcane line (IMO) is the fact that you can change skills to compensate for the enemy team. E.g. I see that there is a nature healer in an enemy group and I switch to purge. Given that some builds just aren't really viable without specific armor (frazzle spam damage build for example) means that if I'm built for damage and need to swap to purge I'm now wearing armor that doesn't benefit me (I do no damage, my cast speed is irrelevant, mana isn't an issue so all of the passives on cloth are worthless to me). So that pushes me to wear leather by default for the CDR, or plate for the survivability. In both leather and plate my damage suffers, so swapping from a utility spell to frazzle makes little sense.

      Overall though I think Arcane is actually in a pretty solid spot. I'd love to see the cast time on Frazzle reduced down to a flat 1s instead of the current 1.2 as it'd make it competitive with frostbolt and open up a bit more flexibility in leather based builds, but I'm not really expecting much of a change with Arcane at this point. It's a bummer that the damage got nerfed on Frazzle with the addition of the armor shred but I understand it. I'm not sure why the shield amount was nerfed as well, although I can't confirm this actually happened, I'm just trusting @Dip got that right. Would be nice if the devs could put together a complete change list next time. :-/