Dagger brothers and sisters, will you continue playing after next patch?

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    • Dagger brothers and sisters, will you continue playing after next patch?

      Hello everyone, allow me to introduce myself. I am one of the few dagger mains in this game, and like you, all i have played primarily is daggers. I have recently reached t8 and have invested thousands of learning points into each weapon mastery.

      It has become abundantly clear with the developer response and our lackluster new skill that daggers have been swept under the rug by the balance team OR that the balance team may not be spending enough time testing this weapon class.

      Dash and Assassin spirit are proof of this. I'm actually unsure if the developers are even aware of how these skill function in the game.

      Assassin spirit is the hardest skill to manage in the game. And actually gets worse the more you level the dagger tree. Resistance loss and mana costs go up, while the bonuses remain the same. There are no animations that indicate whats going on with this skill so you either familiarize yourself with it's timing or look up in the buff bar by your health bar to remind yourself how many stacks you have and how much longer they are lasting.

      Dash gets worth with levels too. Mana cost goes up, but dash distance remains the same.

      Shadow edge is almost just as bad. Since its base root time is so low, the only noticeable difference with levels will be its mana cost. When i tested the t8 dagger with shadow edge this skill used 49 mana to cast (with my masteries). So i can only use this skill once in my rotation before i'm out of mana.

      Shadow edge isnt even good. In fact, its the worst skill in albion so far. Its just a movement skill. After cc reduction the root won't be noticed. Its cooldown is too long for get in-get out playstyle and worse, if your target runs behind a small tree you will get stuck on the tree.

      I hate to break it to you, but 1 handed dagger and dagger pair are worthless. These are the daggers i started with and i got them both to roughly 45 mastery. I took 1h dagger and went with healer+arcane to supercharge my potential for single target kills. First off- you are out of mana after killing one thing. The E on 1h dagger is too mana hungry for what it is and even with the cost reduction will still be too mana hungry. You are always better off taking a ranged AOE dps than a single target dagger dps FOR SINGLE TARGETS smh.

      Dagger pair has a cast time on E meaning it has no place in the competitive scene. If you are fighting in someones face with dagger all they need is a dodge/block/or cc to counter you. And they will be able to counter you EVERY TIME since slit throat has a cast time. ALSO JUST LOL AT THEM CALLING THIS SKILL EXECUTE IN THE PATCH NOTES. THEY ARENT EVEN AWARE OF THE CORRECT NAME OF THIS SKILL! :D


      Claws are a gimmick weapon that doesn't even pull off it's own gimmick properly.

      This weapon is just plain awful in every regard. In practice the E skill stuns the person using the claws more than the person receiving disembowel. The person who is rooted can cast any instant cast skill like reflect, invis, block, whatever they choose, while the claw user is actually the one who can't use anything. I have had cases where the person i disemboweled actually hurt me MORE than i was hurting them!

      This is incredibly bad considering this is a single target skill. Why the **** would anyone ever main claws? Even i'm not that crazy.
    • Rokov schrieb:

      Daggers is one of the most popular weapons in game. Claws is perfectly fine for ganking and bloodletter is very good for a lot of situations. Wtf are you talking about?
      Pair of daggers is in the bad spot coz of big cast time, but other daggers are very good.
      Claws are fine for ganking but not 'perfectly fine', the bloodletter is good in a few situations, not alot, the dagger pair is not only bad cus of the big cast time, also because the 2 dagger q's straight up suck and the other daggers are not good, e.g. the 1h dagger (as mentioned before) has too much mana cost on e.
      wadup fam
    • First of all, I agree that daggers are in a bad state right now, but some of your points are wrong.

      You claim that developers have forgotten how to balance or didn't spend enough time with this. But you didn't spend enough time either.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Assassin spirit is the hardest skill to manage in the game. And actually gets worse the more you level the dagger tree. Resistance loss and mana costs go up, while the bonuses remain the same.


      Dash gets worth with levels too. Mana cost goes up, but dash distance remains the same.
      Of course it works like that. Resistance loss is fixed based, while bonuses are percentage based. For example, if you have 150 resistances and lose 50 resistances on T4, it's the same than being T8 with 300 resistances and losing 100 resistances (33%). Same happens with mana, as mana goes up with tiers.

      Same happens with Dash. Your mana gets higher with armor tiers, so the mana cost is actually the same.
    • Frostfire2k schrieb:

      First off- you are out of mana after killing one thing. The E on 1h dagger is too mana hungry for what it is and even with the cost reduction will still be too mana hungry.

      EmptyPillow schrieb:

      e.g. the 1h dagger (as mentioned before) has too much mana cost on e.
      there is a way (or 2) to plug this "hole" by using certain gear. I posted about this issue in Beta 1h dagger = too mana hungry (and got some replies on how to prevent it)
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;
      Mining T8 in enemy WT solo
    • Dethcord schrieb:

      Yeah retro has no clue how actual conbat looks like, he thinks charging with SE and -66 armor into a crowd of people is assassin playstyle and that it's possible to use ST after SE, like no one will block it.

      I'll still play, but I'm looking for the new game, and combat balancing is not even the biggest reason for this.
      I just imagined an assassin who prepares to murder his target.

      He stacks up "assassins spirit" essentially taking off all his clothes and becoming completely naked. Then proceeds to throw a magical noodle at the enemy who he pops up behind (dont worry, this magical noodle doesnt deal any damage). Surprise! And stabs em good. Well, unfortunately the target isn't dead yet and the assassin is no longer naked, which means hes weaker. So the target turns to the assassin and knocks him out, yells for help and the assassin starts frantically trying to take off his clothes again. Unfortunately at this point the assassin is out of mana and can no longer do anything. So he dies.
    • Rokov schrieb:

      Daggers is one of the most popular weapons in game. Claws is perfectly fine for ganking and bloodletter is very good for a lot of situations. Wtf are you talking about?
      Pair of daggers is in the bad spot coz of big cast time, but other daggers are very good.
      Claws are only good for locking down a guy on a horse. Did you know you can simply go invisible while clawed and walk away?

      Neshert schrieb:

      You claim that developers have forgotten how to balance or didn't spend enough time with this. But you didn't spend enough time either.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Assassin spirit is the hardest skill to manage in the game. And actually gets worse the more you level the dagger tree. Resistance loss and mana costs go up, while the bonuses remain the same.


      Dash gets worth with levels too. Mana cost goes up, but dash distance remains the same.
      Of course it works like that. Resistance loss is fixed based, while bonuses are percentage based. For example, if you have 150 resistances and lose 50 resistances on T4, it's the same than being T8 with 300 resistances and losing 100 resistances (33%). Same happens with mana, as mana goes up with tiers.
      Same happens with Dash. Your mana gets higher with armor tiers, so the mana cost is actually the same.
      Why am i constrained to using high tier armor for my dagger to work properly?

      So if i decide i want to use t4 armor with a t6 dagger im essentially fucked since the dagger will basically remove every bit of armor i have while costing more mana than i even have. Which other weapon has this kind of effect? I'm sure i could use a t8 glaive with t5 armor and still get by without these negatives other than higher mana costs for higher damage abilitys.

      I just think its comical to think of - guy using t8 dagger with flat t4 uses dash and thats half his mana.
    • EmptyPillow schrieb:

      Imo all daggers are bad except for Bloodletter, but I'll still continue using them since I still find them the most fun to play. I agree with pretty much everything you say. I'd also love to try out the new dagger skill but since it mastery 70, no way I can try it :(
      Here i'll tell you all about it.

      Imagine you have a magical noodle. This magical noodle will teleport you to whoever it hits assuming they arent behind something. It doesn't hurt them and simply causes them to stand still for half a second. You can throw the noodle every 15 seconds and it takes about 1/5 of your mana to cast.

      Have fun!
    • Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Rokov schrieb:

      Daggers is one of the most popular weapons in game. Claws is perfectly fine for ganking and bloodletter is very good for a lot of situations. Wtf are you talking about?
      Pair of daggers is in the bad spot coz of big cast time, but other daggers are very good.
      Claws are only good for locking down a guy on a horse. Did you know you can simply go invisible while clawed and walk away?

      Neshert schrieb:

      You claim that developers have forgotten how to balance or didn't spend enough time with this. But you didn't spend enough time either.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Assassin spirit is the hardest skill to manage in the game. And actually gets worse the more you level the dagger tree. Resistance loss and mana costs go up, while the bonuses remain the same.


      Dash gets worth with levels too. Mana cost goes up, but dash distance remains the same.
      Of course it works like that. Resistance loss is fixed based, while bonuses are percentage based. For example, if you have 150 resistances and lose 50 resistances on T4, it's the same than being T8 with 300 resistances and losing 100 resistances (33%). Same happens with mana, as mana goes up with tiers.Same happens with Dash. Your mana gets higher with armor tiers, so the mana cost is actually the same.
      Why am i constrained to using high tier armor for my dagger to work properly?
      So if i decide i want to use t4 armor with a t6 dagger im essentially fucked since the dagger will basically remove every bit of armor i have while costing more mana than i even have. Which other weapon has this kind of effect? I'm sure i could use a t8 glaive with t5 armor and still get by without these negatives other than higher mana costs for higher damage abilitys.

      I just think its comical to think of - guy using t8 dagger with flat t4 uses dash and thats half his mana.
      You need some examples that use more energy while having the same effect?

      Swords: Iron Will

      Axes: Adrenaline Boost, Battle Frenzy

      Maces: Pull Area

      Spears: as with Assassin Spirit, Spirit Spear needs more mana while still giving same % of dmg and range so you should check that instead of saying " I'm sure i could use a t8 glaive with t5 armor and still get by without these negatives other than higher mana costs for higher damage abilitys." which is not actually true.

      Should I keep going on? Ofc you need higher tier armor so your weapon works properly or you will have energy problems.
    • I particularly "like" the basic single dagger because it sorta makes "sense" as an auto atk build. The problem IMHO is melee auto builds don't really work. Ranged auto builds do (that's why spear auto builds work because they are technically ranged). Melee auto requires an immobile target. It's either that or a significant amount of aspd to get as many hits in.

      I only have exp with the basic dagger so here's what I think should change.

      Sunder Armor needs to go. It doesn't make sense on a dagger. Daggers don't break armor, war hammers do, axes do, maces do. What daggers CAN do is go THROUGH armor but AO has no such mechanic. What AO does have is magic damage. So replace Sunder Armor with something that deals magic damage (either solid damage or a dot).

      Poison Coating could use an aspd buff. The skill does way too little for its cost. Give it an aspd buff (significant buff) and a shorter duration.
    • Neshert schrieb:

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Rokov schrieb:

      Daggers is one of the most popular weapons in game. Claws is perfectly fine for ganking and bloodletter is very good for a lot of situations. Wtf are you talking about?
      Pair of daggers is in the bad spot coz of big cast time, but other daggers are very good.
      Claws are only good for locking down a guy on a horse. Did you know you can simply go invisible while clawed and walk away?

      Neshert schrieb:

      You claim that developers have forgotten how to balance or didn't spend enough time with this. But you didn't spend enough time either.

      Frostfire2k schrieb:

      Assassin spirit is the hardest skill to manage in the game. And actually gets worse the more you level the dagger tree. Resistance loss and mana costs go up, while the bonuses remain the same.


      Dash gets worth with levels too. Mana cost goes up, but dash distance remains the same.
      Of course it works like that. Resistance loss is fixed based, while bonuses are percentage based. For example, if you have 150 resistances and lose 50 resistances on T4, it's the same than being T8 with 300 resistances and losing 100 resistances (33%). Same happens with mana, as mana goes up with tiers.Same happens with Dash. Your mana gets higher with armor tiers, so the mana cost is actually the same.
      Why am i constrained to using high tier armor for my dagger to work properly?So if i decide i want to use t4 armor with a t6 dagger im essentially fucked since the dagger will basically remove every bit of armor i have while costing more mana than i even have. Which other weapon has this kind of effect? I'm sure i could use a t8 glaive with t5 armor and still get by without these negatives other than higher mana costs for higher damage abilitys.

      I just think its comical to think of - guy using t8 dagger with flat t4 uses dash and thats half his mana.
      You need some examples that use more energy while having the same effect?
      Swords: Iron Will

      Axes: Adrenaline Boost, Battle Frenzy

      Maces: Pull Area

      Spears: as with Assassin Spirit, Spirit Spear needs more mana while still giving same % of dmg and range so you should check that instead of saying " I'm sure i could use a t8 glaive with t5 armor and still get by without these negatives other than higher mana costs for higher damage abilitys." which is not actually true.

      Should I keep going on? Ofc you need higher tier armor so your weapon works properly or you will have energy problems.


      Bringing up Spirit Spear in relation to daggers is absurd, lol. It's a completely positive skill. It offers a huge damage bonus but also an attack distance increase comparable to frost mage attack distance. It's mana cost is minuscule if you don't overstack a bunch .

      As far as energy usage goes, why shouldn't you be able to use more W dashes as you go up in tiers? You can play dagger and use like a single E and some Q's, never touch your W and be completely out of energy.
    • A 1h dagger build wouldn't work anyway : too squishy, and you would probably not deal that much damage because people are not standing still.

      Dash skill is fine at the moment, it allows great mobility with short cd and decent mana cost. I don't see why it should be stronger while tiers are going up.

      About daggers pair, I think they need to leave the cast time on the E because it allows counter play : people can use a defensive cooldown to counter it and that's cool. The real problem is atm, if they do, even if you're a good player and cancel your E, your stacks are gonna fade and then you won't have a 2nd chance..

      The only viable dagger atm is bloodletter because it's great for ganking, I don't see anything else.
    • Taftaf schrieb:

      A 1h dagger build wouldn't work anyway : too squishy, and you would probably not deal that much damage because people are not standing still.

      Dash skill is fine at the moment, it allows great mobility with short cd and decent mana cost. I don't see why it should be stronger while tiers are going up.

      About daggers pair, I think they need to leave the cast time on the E because it allows counter play : people can use a defensive cooldown to counter it and that's cool. The real problem is atm, if they do, even if you're a good player and cancel your E, your stacks are gonna fade and then you won't have a 2nd chance..

      The only viable dagger atm is bloodletter because it's great for ganking, I don't see anything else.
      The problem is dagger E has a casttime to allow counterplay, while all other melee Es don't have casttimes and don't "allow counterplay". And daggers are weapons with the worst Qs of all, so if you can't hit your E you're not killing anyone. Besldes, some guy can dodge roll it first, then block, then inferno/frost shield it, or windwall you off, then use dodge roll again because it will be off CD, etc. Faking this casttime rarely works because stacks only last for 7 seconds, tho it's possible with sunder armor, but impossible with AS. But sunder armor stacks can be cleansed and if you're not using E, you're getting destroyed.