Philosophy of nerfing down, versus buffing up....

  • MightySheep wrote:

    It would probably be a bad idea to have a whack-a-mole style approach to "overly popular" classes.

    Personally I dont even think the meta is fully cemented yet and it feels pretty early to be needing any significant changes.
    This is how Dota 2 is balanced. It is all analytics, how Icefrog brings everything into line is what makes it great. To give you an idea, at TI7 there was like 3 heroes not played, out of over 130.

    And the game is cemented enough to where every single top team pretty much runs the same thing.
  • Dulu wrote:

    But who says Fire can't have CC?

    Fire can bring a stun, or a different version/improved Fire Wall mechanic. Or a strong slow on their Q. Or more knockbacks.

    We don't need to bring the same mechanics from earlier games. We can make Fire viable without making it a pure damage weapon.
    You're so completely uninformed it hurts. You've clearly never been part of a balance team on anything successful.

    It's obvious you come from league, because you want to homogenize everything. Give DPS weapons CC, give CC weapons damage,etc . If you say that's not what you want then try and detail what changes you'd like to see to the dozens of underpowered weapons? You're delusional if you think they can rework everything to be balanced AND non-homogenized without nerfing anything.

    Then let's get onto stupid quotes like this:



    DuDu wrote:

    People picked strong abilities they liked, and now they're about to be obsolete. 30 days of grinding, is about to go out of the window.



    Are you really dumb enough to think that any nerf whatsoever will make these weapons underpowered?

    I know you're used to the shitty league developers nerfing anything OP into absolute oblivion, but MMO developers tend to take a more gradual approach because of the reasons you listed. (People spending tons of time specializing would quit if the nerf hammered an item like league does it's champions.)

    League doesn't really care because people can just play other champions. (They're also fairly homogenized so it's even less of an issue.)

    Anyway I'll end by quoting MTG head designer Mark Rosewater: "Your audience is good at recognizing problems and bad at solving them." I think we all know which weapons are best and which are worst, but 99% of players are TERRIBLE at balancing them out. You're not uniquely stupid, but rather one of a huge crowd of people who're terrible at game balance.
  • Xiomaro wrote:

    Dulu wrote:

    Do you realize how many hours people have poured into maxing out Glaives 100spec/100mast, and Frost, etc?

    Do you think they will be willing to do that with another weapon, and risk it all getting nerfed again?


    You don't have to buff every average performed, just buff the underperformers.


    Buff things we never see in GvG, and leave the stuff we do see alone.
    This is only an issue if you're a FOTM roller. Glaives and Frost will still be viable with nerfs. They're clearly over performing.
    Ask Grinding Gear Games their take on buffing up vs nerfing down. For a while, they were under the impression that nerfs are needed all the time to promote balance. They would even push these nerfs about 2 weeks after a league started, then again about a month after league start. Ask them why they don't do this anymore. Ask them how much of their player base they lost with each major nerf shortly after ppl worked so hard building those FOTM characters. PoE no longer does nerfs in that style anymore and they no longer have their player base leaving in droves with each update, yet they still balance their content with every patch. Seems a balance can be reached without killing the hopes and dreams of your most dedicated players.
  • ntall1 wrote:

    Xiomaro wrote:

    Dulu wrote:

    Do you realize how many hours people have poured into maxing out Glaives 100spec/100mast, and Frost, etc?

    Do you think they will be willing to do that with another weapon, and risk it all getting nerfed again?


    You don't have to buff every average performed, just buff the underperformers.


    Buff things we never see in GvG, and leave the stuff we do see alone.
    This is only an issue if you're a FOTM roller. Glaives and Frost will still be viable with nerfs. They're clearly over performing.
    Ask Grinding Gear Games their take on buffing up vs nerfing down. For a while, they were under the impression that nerfs are needed all the time to promote balance. They would even push these nerfs about 2 weeks after a league started, then again about a month after league start. Ask them why they don't do this anymore. Ask them how much of their player base they lost with each major nerf shortly after ppl worked so hard building those FOTM characters. PoE no longer does nerfs in that style anymore and they no longer have their player base leaving in droves with each update, yet they still balance their content with every patch. Seems a balance can be reached without killing the hopes and dreams of your most dedicated players.
    Dont ask them, because they gain players each update, its natural to take a break after a month of playing, like, how many times can you repeat and repeat map runs and new characters, not enough to keep you interested for long period of time. Of course people leave, theres that thing called endgame, when you have to reroll in a game like this, nerfs have no effect
  • ntall1 wrote:

    Xiomaro wrote:

    Dulu wrote:

    Do you realize how many hours people have poured into maxing out Glaives 100spec/100mast, and Frost, etc?

    Do you think they will be willing to do that with another weapon, and risk it all getting nerfed again?


    You don't have to buff every average performed, just buff the underperformers.


    Buff things we never see in GvG, and leave the stuff we do see alone.
    This is only an issue if you're a FOTM roller. Glaives and Frost will still be viable with nerfs. They're clearly over performing.
    Ask Grinding Gear Games their take on buffing up vs nerfing down. For a while, they were under the impression that nerfs are needed all the time to promote balance. They would even push these nerfs about 2 weeks after a league started, then again about a month after league start. Ask them why they don't do this anymore. Ask them how much of their player base they lost with each major nerf shortly after ppl worked so hard building those FOTM characters. PoE no longer does nerfs in that style anymore and they no longer have their player base leaving in droves with each update, yet they still balance their content with every patch. Seems a balance can be reached without killing the hopes and dreams of your most dedicated players.
    POE is a PVE game (yes, there's a ladder but it's still PVE). Albion Online is primarily PVP.

    You're better off looking at other MMOs, MOBAs and even FPS games like Overwatch. Almost all of them nerf and buff stuff.

    Like I said earlier, Black Desert Online is in the process of buffing 10 classes instead of nerfing 3 OP classes. Let's see how that works out for them. Not well, I'm guessing. Everyone is just rerolling the OP shit because they know it's not getting nerfed.
  • I always have an issue with game balance. what does that mean? Every one in PVP has 100 health and each and every weapon is both range and melee and each hit does 1 point of damage.

    I come from the old day of Air warrior. where we never cried because we spawned in and got kill. We called it a good kill. If we were in an inferior plane you just dealt with it. This biggest issue that can never be balanced is that we mediocre players will go against highly skilled players. When that happen some of us cry. In this game sometime I am the ganker and other times I am the gankie.

    No matter how the make changes there will always be the FOTM build. Ill go back in my hole now.
  • Dulu wrote:

    This upcoming patch plans to nerf many things which are popular/strong right now.

    That's a normal reaction.

    But let's take a look at what nerfing down actually does.



    If you NERF Frost Mage, that Frost Mage is FORCED to re-roll, or quit, if his spec is no longer viable.
    If you BUFF Fire Mage, that Frost Mage may WANT to re-roll, or roll an alt.


    If you NERF Heavy Mace, that Mace player is FORCED to re-roll, or quit.
    If you BUFF Flails or Quarterstaff, maybe he wants to move to something new.
    Youre making a big assumption here that a nerf makes a weapon worse than other weapons and therefore obsolete forcing people to switch builds.

    This isnt the case at all.

    A nerf should reduce an overpowered weapon to the same level as other weapons which keeps it relevant and usable.

    Its called balancing.
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