Gear is inflated thread

  • At the risk of sounding patronizing or arrogant here..... is this your first MMO guys?

    The problem of Inflation in MMO is as old as MMO's .. nevertheless..let me pass the floor to my buddy here...



    And more recently



    Mind you Albion uses the Silver/Diamonds system, replace Diamonds by Gold.

    Having covered Inflation... I will do another reply to discuss things.
    ~ Duke Suraknar ~

    Order of the Silver Star, OSS
    "Everyone dies, not everyone really fights!"
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997, OSS Atlantic Shard
  • Fullbordad wrote:

    Hi!

    As we all know the gear market is inflated beyond control and in every field you have more of a profit by simply selling the raw materials. This has become even more so inflated since I last posted this. There's not enough ways to lose gear in this game and at this point the prices are under no control what so ever.

    As it stands now it's completely useless to craft anything (with some very few exceptions). You want to be a blacksmith? DO NOT CRAFT ANYTHING, Buy armors for way lower than what the resource cost is and study them at a crafting station in a town and you will get way more fame then you would by actually crafting the items.

    Again, there is way too little ways to lose gear in this game and something needs to be done to prevent this.

    • Each time you repair an item the max durability should be lowered, so that once it reaches a certain point the gear almost instantly breaks.
    • Increase the durability loss on death on every item.
    • T5+ Expeditions should have a chance to trash items on death, same goes for every PvE death in yellow zones+
    • Trashed items are now categorized as the gear it was before it became trash, IE a trashed T5 leather armor could be salvaged by a leather armor crafter for a low return of the materials used


    Any thoughts about this? Do you think it's fine the way it is or do you want more silver sinks?

    Discuss.

    EDITED post according to the input I got.
    Lets relaunch the discussion from the OP.

    by the way I do not want to detract from the interesting Spin on Fame from PvP, I think it has merit too here, especially since this is supposed to be a PvP ..territorial Conquest RvR type of game..why are we PvEing in order to end up PvPing? It only spells ...unfocused Design and lack of clarity of direction. Anyways I digress for now in that area.

    First of all I would like to understand what you mean by "the Gear Market is inflated"...

    1- Do you mean the value of the Silver in Game is Inflated

    2- Or do you mean that there is too much gear in the Auction House?

    3- Or do you mean that Gear is too expensive in the Auction house?

    As for materials costing the same, this is not new..in most MMO's the Trade Junkies manage to bring the prices of materials to the same level as the gear. Their reasoning is different Market Segmentation. You are either customer for Materials in which case you want to raise craft your own stuff. Or you are a consumer of the gear.

    Buying Gear to studdy I find is not a good practice..because you may advance your crafting like that but you will lag behind on gathering. A true Crafter would advance gathering to T5 athen crafting to T6, the Gatehring to T6 then crafting to T7 etc...

    You cannot be (effectively) a crafter from buying your mats form the Auction House...this has never worked in practice... It is good in theory.

    And I only saw one game where it actually worked and that was POTBS..but this happened because 1- the Cost of production was part of the game and 2 - The auction House was a blind system. You could nto see the price of items. You knew the value from production and you made your offer on what you thought was reasonable and if your offer matched or was above an available sell listing you would buy the items. And that caused the market to never be inflated...only game I saw this happening too..unfortunately it suffered from identity crisis Devs were not sure if the game should go PVE or PvP direction and in time this caused it to fail...it had loss mechanics too and started out as a PvP oriented game with multiple factions.

    In Albion, there is an item value but no one respect that. People who gather a resource decide of what is worth based on their emotions. Then they throw it in the market and see how it sells.. then others undercut them and market prices stabilize to around a certain level because, then, however... market junkies are there to buy anything that goes too low and repost it at higher price.... there are people who stay in front of the AH all day making money buying and reselling items at higher prices...maintain the level of prices of the gear...

    And it works as long as people buy at these prices in the AH.. and the inflation will rise...it will work still for a while while the game is new then in about 2-3 months it will all crash when more and more people will stop buying form the AH at the inflated prices...but based on your post..we are already feeling uneasy about the economic situation of the game...

    But lets start by clarifying what you mean in reality please?
    ~ Duke Suraknar ~

    Order of the Silver Star, OSS
    "Everyone dies, not everyone really fights!"
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997, OSS Atlantic Shard

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Suraknar ().

  • OP means there are too few means for gear to leave the world (aka gear sinks). He worded it poorly making people think he is talking about loosing gear via pk. Gear stays in the world in that case unless the item gets "trashed".

    That is why his suggestions revolve around gear max durability decreasing and items turning into "trash". If gear keeps breaking to the point where max durability is 0, then that item is "unusable" other than for study fodder (assuming you can study an item with a full durability of 0).
  • Targun wrote:

    Maybe try leaving the yellow zone before you start having ideas?

    Amazing input, thanks.


    Qadir wrote:

    That's a terrible idea. What happens if you get downed and you're weapon breaks? You're just gonna run around punching mobs until the end of the Expo? You gonna A out and wait 15 minutes for it to potentially happen again?

    You definitely should, making a MMO too streamlined and easy will only alienate the population that this game is made for.

    Yeah the problem with gaining fame trough PvP is that the top guilds will abuse the crap out of it and instantly level up characters which will make the GvGs unbalanced and detract from letting the most skillful players win the battles.

    The rewards from PvP should be the loot that you get from the players, but since pretty much no gear that people bring into PvP is worth anything it ends up being a lot more profitable to just prey on solo gatherers since the raw resources are the most valuable in-game. This makes world PvP pretty dull since killing gatherers who wont even defend themselves is not something most of us would have any fun in doing.

    I think that it's fine that you get no fame from PvP. The problem lies more in the design of the world. Astolat or Camlan are both perfect examples on how to get players into a PvP setting that will also give you fame and loot. Add more spots that you can hunt in the world and make more areas red or even black. Give players incentive to actually move out from the cities instead of standing afk at a portal that gives you way more fame than any world dungeons or boss would do and you'd be able to get a lot more PvP.


    Vlad87 wrote:

    The market will definately correct itself in the next few months. T4-6 is packed because everyone is crafting or buying cheap gear to study. If you want to see the market change, buy the cheap crap, study/ re-list it. Little while ago I bought most of the flat tier V guardian helms in bridgewatch to study. Guess what happened? the price went up on guardian helms.

    I disagree, the market wont correct itself because there's not enough ways that gear gets removed from the game. IE becoming trash. What will happen is that the only thing that will have a little value will be the T8 stuff and the rest of the items will be just fluff.

    Duke Suraknar wrote:

    Lets relaunch the discussion from the OP.
    by the way I do not want to detract from the interesting Spin on Fame from PvP, I think it has merit too here, especially since this is supposed to be a PvP ..territorial Conquest RvR type of game..why are we PvEing in order to end up PvPing? It only spells ...unfocused Design and lack of clarity of direction. Anyways I digress for now in that area.

    First of all I would like to understand what you mean by "the Gear Market is inflated"...
    ....But lets start by clarifying what you mean in reality please?

    Clarified my post to make it crystal clear what I think. There's not enough things that completely removes gear from the game, and it's going to be an issue.

    You'll always lag behind in gathering because it's the one thing in this game that you can't pay silver to advance in fame. The point is that there's absolutely no reason at all to craft anything even if you gather everything yourself. It is way more profitable for you to sell everything you gather and then use your profits to buy whatever you want to level crafting in and study it.
  • Fullbordad wrote:

    The point is that there's absolutely no reason at all to craft anything even if you gather everything yourself. It is way more profitable for you to sell everything you gather and then use your profits to buy whatever you want to level crafting in and study it.
    For that to be true the AH price (AH$) should be lower than 67% of items Craft Cost. (CC$)

    if AH$ it is between 67% 100% of CC$ its more efficient to craft and sell with a loss.

    If AH$ is better than CC$ you craft and sell for profit.

    Hope that helps.


    Currently the first option is only true for t2/t3 items soooo if you stil at this stage you really shouldnt have any ideas yet ;P
    'Cacatio Matutina Est Tamquam Medicina'
    X/

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Targun ().

  • Fullbordad wrote:

    Targun wrote:

    Lets relaunch the discussion from the OP.
    Clarified my post to make it crystal clear what I think. There's not enough things that completely removes gear from the game, and it's going to be an issue.

    You'll always lag behind in gathering because it's the one thing in this game that you can't pay silver to advance in fame. The point is that there's absolutely no reason at all to craft anything even if you gather everything yourself. It is way more profitable for you to sell everything you gather and then use your profits to buy whatever you want to level crafting in and study it.
    Thanks,

    Well, then what you mean, just to paraphrase here, is that there is too much gear in the Market right now and the oddity of the materials costing as much or higher as the gear itself, and that it means very little being a crafter.

    First of all..I would like to say that the anomaly in the Market is normal...and the same happens in all MMO's. Because people do tend to overestimate the value of items, and other people price gauge, and also other people scam.

    It is how a true Free market works... in RL we have all kinds of measures to prevent this situation form happening to a certain extent. But In MMO there is no Wall Street or Government or Big Corporations that define the price of the base goods on a daily basis. I mean, a pair of Addidas shoes that are now popular go for 80-120$ (US/CAN), but in reality cost 5-10$ to produce... in Asia.. the cost of labor and material to make the final product is much lower than the product itself.

    One of the factors in the game that contributes to this is the fact that there is risk to gather materials. in RL there is no risk to go to work every day to make shoes or to transport the materials to make them to your working station.
    In real life there is not someone that can go in front of an Auction House and buy all of the pairs of shoes and then resell them at a higher price in effect maintaining a price level of their choice.

    The real problem here is not that not enough gear exist the economy. The problem is that people are overpricing Gear. I do not buy Gear above T4 form the market...I rather craft it myself, it is much less expensive to do so, but at the same time..it is not cheap enough for me to say..oh..I am willing to lose it in PvP..and so T4 for PvP it is...and higher gear I use only in areas where it cannot be lost. This is smart playing behavior...

    Golden Rule of Full loot PvP is:

    "Always use what you are willing to lose"

    Back to the issue, If there is too much gear in the auction House it is because people are not buying it. The question one should ask for is why aren't people buying it? The answer..it is expensive.

    But there is another reason. Many people raised Crafting by employing what they thought was a clever shortcut... they Bought Gear to study to raise crafting...but by doing so you are not raising gathering..so what good does it server if you have high crafting gear and not gathering?

    I will tel you. Most of these people are not crafters. Most of these people saught a way to be able to finance their PvP activities thinking that they could craft their best gear with buying mats on the AH. Then you have the maybe less experienced players who really thought this to be a clever shortcut to crafting. But again the same problem.

    The result?

    You have too many people with High crafting Skills and not too many Gatherers. So there is high demand for Materials raising its price. In turn crafting from buying materials is not feasible. It will raise the price of Gear at the same time. However, real true crafters have in reality low costs, and when they craft they can undercut everyone. Which causes the market to accumulate high numbers of expensive gear that are not being sold.

    Now..When I craft something I always sell my gear within couple of Hours. From my perspective Crafting works and The market Works. But I also always undercut the prices and I still make good profits.

    It costs nothing but my time to go gather mats. the cost of product of my mats is 0 silver. I am not playing on a hourly wage here LOL.. Playing the game is for entertainment. My time in game is fun it does not have a base price. So gathering is 0 cost monetarily (yes sometimes I may lose it to a gank of PK.s but all I lost is time..in reality and the cost of what I was wearing, The gathered mats I lost costed 0 to produce). Crafting Items endures the cost of production in Town stations. This is my Real production Cost based upon that I sell the item and I always come out profitable.

    You cannot make a profit if you craft from buying materials in the market, that may work in RL, but seldom in an MMO we will see why shortly. Why the materials are worth more or equal than the gear itself is all a matter of offer and demand. There is high demand for Materials and not enough Gatherers. There is low demand for gear and Many many Crafters...

    The solution is for people to stop buying mats from the AH and start gathering them themselves ..then you will have more gear lost in the process etc...

    On the other hand, the suggested solution to add more sink in for gear in the game will not accomplish anything good, in the current situation, because that way you will feed a negative loop and worsen the problem.

    If for instance we were to have gear destroyed by Expeditions, then first of all most of us will start wearing T4 gear in expeditions..or the lowest gear we can use to minimize losses. Then such a solution will cause a temporary demand for gear, but raising demand also raises prices. Then since we already have many people who have high crafting but not gathering, the demand for mats will rise too especially since more gear is needed and that will also raise the price.

    In the end, what this will accomplish is raise the price for both gear and materials while keeping the same ratio of prices between materials and gear the same as is now..only more expensive even.

    So I disagree that adding more gear sinks will solve the current situation.

    What needs to be done here is to open the gates for gatherers to be able to gather, create more gatherers to have more offer of materials...there needs to be a surplus of materials people are willing to take risks moving around and using. You cannot do this by locking resources and making it difficult for people to gather them. It creates exactly the situation you describe and I was just waiting for this to happen in Albion. Mind you I expressed it would happen 3 weeks ago in another thread. We need a surplus of materials to lower the price of materials..so that prices of gear follow... when gear itself costs less then more people will be willing to lose it more often and more people will be using better than T4 in situations where they can lose it. You will never force people to wear gear that costs hundreds of thousands or millions of silver to casually lose it on a daily basis..

    It is just not sustainable..people would rather go play something else.

    The solution is making base resources more accessible more abundant. Not more rare or less accessible. Implement Guild War System so that Guilds and alliances declare Wars to one another to conquer territory.At the same time eliminate Balck Zone Ruleset of KoS ganking, and implement Reputation in all out lands. Now you are creating an environment where Gatherers can go gather in more frequency in the outlands, and will not be ganked by Guilds owning the territory only by PK(reds) who will incur Reputation hits.

    Resources should be open for all for the situation to and markets to fix themselves, for trade hubs to be established outside Caerleon...owning territory should not be (like EVE) about holding a monopoly on ressources..because Albion is a differently setup. Holding Territory should give advantages yes but not prevent everyone else form participating in the economy of the game.

    And that is your root cause there.
    ~ Duke Suraknar ~

    Order of the Silver Star, OSS
    "Everyone dies, not everyone really fights!"
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997, OSS Atlantic Shard

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Suraknar ().

  • I would like to add, and I know the above is long, but I am hoping no one suffers from ADHD here and you are able to read.

    Implementing diminishing Durability on items could be good in combination to the above solutions.

    Every time you get knocked out, the item could take 2.5% permanent durability loss this will mean 40 knock outs and you will need to craft or buy a new item. And it is also gradual enough not to have nasty surprises. However, before this happens the materials need to be made more abundant for the above mentioned reasons and to help rebalance the market.

    Otherwise we will just enhance the current problem.

    In addition they would need to decide if items with less than 100% durability can be sold in the AH, as I can see rampant scamming in that regard, so I say only 100% durability items should be sold in AH. Also, should items with low durability still be valid for Recycling? I think yes but the silver return should scale accordingly. Not the mats though they should be the same as quantitatively there is no loss of material. Which would mean, looted Items with less than 100% durability can only be recycled or used by the looter not sold in the market...maybe the BM yes..

    Cheers!
    ~ Duke Suraknar ~

    Order of the Silver Star, OSS
    "Everyone dies, not everyone really fights!"
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997, OSS Atlantic Shard

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Suraknar ().

  • Celludriel wrote:

    Personally I always liked the idea that any gear you get from drops or pvp kills get marked as contraband. You are only able to sell that gear to the black market for 50% value of the resource cost for that item. That way you either use the item until it breaks or you sell it but you don't saturate the market. The market would just be for crafted items.

    I never got feedback on this idea from the devs though, eventhough I did ask it a few times in the past
    This is a really interesting Idea. I would like this explored.
    Guns dont kill people, bullets do.