Fire Staff vs Frost Staff current balance.

    • Fire Staff vs Frost Staff current balance.

      Hey guys,

      I've been debating whether or not to make this thread for a while now but the Roadmap update today (24th August, 2017) included this point which has encouraged me to talk about the current balance of fire staves vs frost staves: "Combat and item balance is being reviewed and significant balance adjustments will come with Joseph. We’re focussing on adjustments to the strongest and the weakest meta items."

      Currently I believe that frost staves are dealing too much damage on their Q spam whilst also having a CC element (slow) applied when compared to fire staves.

      Let's look at some numbers taken from the ingame tooltips to back-up my statement (looking at flat tier 8 gear):

      1h Fire Staff:

      Q

      Firebolt: 297 magical damage + 43 damage dot per second for 3 seconds (single target). 1.5 second cast time. Energy cost 14. 11m range

      Fire Bomb: 190 magical damage with a 4m radius splash affect upon landing (AoE). 1.0 second cast time. Energy cost 11. 11m range

      1h Frost Staff:

      Q

      Frostbolt: 267 magical damage and applies 20% slow for 8.3 seconds (single target). 1.0 second cast time. Energy cost 11. 11m range

      Hoarfrost: 286 damage with a 3m radius splash affect upon landing (AoE). 1.5 second cast time. Energy cost 14. 11m range

      Comparison

      1.5 second cast time (Firebolt and Hoarfrost) spells are scarcely used in PvP because standing still to channel for that long on your main spam skills is often too long, so 1 second cast time spells (Fire Bomb and Frostbolt) are the main spells you'll see put into this slot.

      Single target comparisons - Firebolt v Frostbolt:

      Damage per second

      Firebolt is dealing 198 DPS in upfront damage along with an additional 129 damage being dealt over 3 seconds in the form of DoT. (1.5 second cast time)

      Frostbolt is dealing 267 DPS in upfront damage whilst also applying a 20% slow for 8.3 seconds. (1 second cast time)

      Conclusion: Frostbolt is dealing more single target damage per second (upfront), whilst also having a slow attached to the ability, and having the (pretty huge) bonus of 1 second cast time versus 1.5 seconds.

      AoE spell comparisons - Fire Bomb v Hoarfrost:

      Damage per second

      Firebomb is dealing 190 DPS in upfront damage with a 4m AoE radius. (1.0 second cast time)

      Hoarfrost is dealing 190.67 DPS in upfront damage with a 3m AoE radius (1.5 second cast time)

      Conclusion: Firebomb is the clear winner here due to the superior AoE radius and 1 second cast time versus 1.5 seconds.

      Implication for PvP:

      Fire Bomb and Frostbolt are the obvious choices to take due to the 1 second cast times.

      Fire Bomb is doing 190 DPS in a 4m AoE whilst Frostbolt steals the show with 267 DPS single target and having the slow affect attached.

      Let's talk about the strength of 3 second DoT compared to a slow:

      There is a lot of healing going on in PvP fights so upfront damage (burst) is much more desirable than low damage but persistent DoT affects.
      The other problem with DoTs are that they are applied in the means of a cleanse-able debuff. This means that the default weaker means of dealing damage (DoTs) are made even less effective once factoring in the inclusion of cleanse which will remove all negative debuffs.

      My thoughts on how to balance:

      Lower the 1.5 seconds cast time on Fire Bomb / Hoarfrost to make them more viable options for PvP.

      Either buff Firebolts upfront damage or rework the burn effects on firestaves into something more threatening.

      Maybe the burn effects instead of being a simple low damage ticking DoT could instead apply a resistance reduction debuff and/or a % max HP per second DoT similar to poison potions.

      I've spoken only about the Q abilities on both of these staves however the imbalance on the slow affect versus burn DoT is also applying to other spells (Frost bomb versus Fireball for instance).

      Edit: Forgot to mention that the burn affect on Firebolt only refreshes upon each subsequent hit instead of stacking, this means that in a strictly Q-spam focus this target scenario the burn affect will not be overtaking Frostbolt damage output even when factoring in the damage from the DoT.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Panko ()

    • The reason I initially picked frost instead of fire was casting speed. Frost bolt is faster and you can keep aggressive caster buff up easily so you can do really nice DPS with it. With fire bolt if you stack casting speed the big issues is that it doesn't synergise with the dots. If you spam fire bolt the old dot just gets refreshed. The devs need to tweak that spell a bit. Maybe lower the casting time a tiny bit, make the dots stack 2-3 times and adjust both the initial and dot damage to balance it out.
    • I am using Great Fire Staff and I see that its only usage is currently ZvZ because of "E" spell.

      Now fire wall is getting nerfed, it was good of course, but overall the fire staff is underused and underpowered atm comparing to other branches,

      Fire bolt needs buff... On PVE it consumes tons of mana but not dealing the damage I expected. Ive got 50 specialization level on that weapon and I wear 6.2 and I deal more single target dmg with claws on skill lvl 5 and on 4.1 weapon. This is not a joke, this is CRAP.

      When a weapon has 0 cc and armor penetration (which is broken atm) - it must deal huge dmg as it's only way to get a kill...
    • Great Fire Staff just got removed from my guild's list of acceptable ZvZ weapons. ZvZ is about capitalizing hard on a successful initation. Poking in a small radius for negligible damage on a short cooldown while offering no utility doesn't cut it.

      My suggestion: Double the damage of Flame Pillar, as well as its cooldown. Make it a meaningful ability other than some silly poke ability.
    • To add on that.

      I really like fire staff, in fact I was having a hard time playing something else. But after reaching T7 and 50+ spec on the great fire this release, I had to face the ugly truth. This weapon is nice but doesn't bring enough in PVP compared to any other form of ranged DPS.
      This is after 1 year playing fire.

      - The Q is so slow to cast that you're better off with a frost. When you consider that 2 hot ~= 200hp, this is a big deal.
      - The firewall is weak and is getting nerfed even more.
      - The insta E is the only advantage of this weapon. But again, frost has an insta E that deals the same amount of damage and adds a root on top of that.


      So since I don't like frost I switched to light crossbow and even though the switch was really hard coming from fire, I'm having a blast :
      - You bring a resistance debuff. With the cursed nerf coming up, this is going to be huge.
      - Or a silence that deals huge dmg too.
      - Exploding shot deals huge dmg in a way people are not used to (Oh what is that burn on me ? ... Boom in your face !)
      And at the same Item power, a 1 handed crossbow bursts more than a 2h fire ...

      Clue : In my guild, we have less players in the fire line than any other. (Minus me)

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von boli ()

    • RockLobster schrieb:

      Great Fire Staff just got removed from my guild's list of acceptable ZvZ weapons. ZvZ is about capitalizing hard on a successful initation. Poking in a small radius for negligible damage on a short cooldown while offering no utility doesn't cut it.

      My suggestion: Double the damage of Flame Pillar, as well as its cooldown. Make it a meaningful ability other than some silly poke ability.
      Can't really agree with you,

      The thing is E is nice poke tool, but like you said that does nothing besides slowing down enemies offensive while being quite risky.

      However E does other thing - it has 0 casting time, which means you instantly apply nuke on targets. With combination of "W" ignite (also 0 casting time) you can make around 1k dmg in around 2-2.5 seconds(depends on lags) + leave double ignite on target and allowing you to run another 2 fire bolts with aggressive caster buff. It's only 10 seconds cooldown which means you are able to repeat that combo very quickly.

      And the most important - you can bring 6.1 to the battlefield because it costs 100k at the moment.

      So its very viable weapon when used in controlled way. Remember that two ice mages when using stun at the same time do nothing. With combination ice+fire you get additional ignitions. Ignitions do stack, which means two fire staves are still fine!

      So while it's not viable itself - with combination of Ice, cursed and arcane it is still powerful weapon and shouldn't be discriminated.
    • @Retroman


      Panko schrieb:

      Single target comparisons - Firebolt v Frostbolt:

      Damage per second

      Firebolt is dealing 198 DPS in upfront damage along with an additional 129 damage being dealt over 3 seconds in the form of DoT. (1.5 second cast time)

      Frostbolt is dealing 267 DPS in upfront damage whilst also applying a 20% slow for 8.3 seconds. (1 second cast time)

      Conclusion: Frostbolt is dealing more single target damage per second (upfront), whilst also having a slow attached to the ability, and having the (pretty huge) bonus of 1 second cast time versus 1.5 seconds.

      First off, nice post OP. Im not sure why frostbolt spam would do more DPS then firebolt, considering it has the added benefit of 33% less cast time over firebolt which means more aggressive casting uptime, and it also brings utility with a 20% snare. As it stands, Frost > Fire in just about every way possible.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Trystan ()

    • I have an idea how to fix fire staff. Actually it's as simple as taking some LoL solutions (Brand) and apply it in albion.

      Fire staff should have stacks just like Clarent Blade, but not on the fire staff player but enemy.

      With every Q/W spell hit enemies are having burnt stack/status/tick for certain time, new tick resets timer and adds to maximum number (3-5).
      With every E (AoE) it consumes stacks from players hit by E and adds additional damage depending on number of ticks.

      So If I hit my target 3 times with Q/W and I run AoE - HE GETS ACTUALLY NUKED. So what IMO fire mage should be able to do (no cc, cloths = huge dmg? just like now, right ? lol)

      I don't know how this change would affect his damage on current skills, but that should have been balanced to make it viable but not OP to 1hit whole team.

      Reasons behind it:

      1. You expect fire staves and especially 2 handed fire staff to be able to nuke target from 100% to 0 HP in a short time. It should consume mana not to repeat it too often.
      2. AoE dmg should be far greater than other classes (it's mage) and it's power should depend on player's skills+strategy execution (not on simple press E button), so first think how to apply max buffs > go with your combo!
      3. No CC means your dmg must be OUTSTANDING.
      4. Fire wall is only defensive skill, which would cost you 'stacks' on other W skills. So you could have options to go full nuker (to apply more stacks with aoe spells), or go defensively with fire wall like as it is atm.
      5. It makes sense that if you hit someone with fire more and more - he's burning more and more, right? Currently when you hit someone 3 times with Q then the 'burnt' status is reset every time. They reduced this bullshit by changing overtime dmg to instant dmg...But imo the mechanic is stupid and it will never be balanced. So instead of being rewarded for hitting someone with 3 consecutive spells > you are lowering your total dmg output because it doesn't stack:) #fucklogic

      I don't know if anyone from SBI even considers things discussed in this topic but at least I would like to hear your opinion how would you like Fire mage with this mechanic ? IMO even if it wasn't much stronger than currently is - the gameplay would be way more fun and strategic.

      For now winter is coming so let's skill our frost staves and shields!
    • boli schrieb:

      Joseph didn't fix a thing. Frost is still the way to go.
      I don't know, it helped. Cone of fire is really good now, and more upfront damage on firebolt makes it better. And frost got some small nerfs on damage.

      Obviously the CC from frost is great, but I know I've 1v1ed frost as fire several times and have not lost. Fire really does more damage in exchange for no CC.

      So if you need CC, frost is better, if you don't (you have enough), fire is better. Seems reasonably well balanced. I wouldn't oppose a small fire buff, but it's not the worst part of game balance by any means.