Balancing Non-Consensual PvP

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    • Zyntra wrote:

      plays.tv/video/5d1c91fe4cf36ef5c3/spectered

      Could I have done anything to not get ganked here?
      you actually did better then like 90% of people complaining on the forums... esp given that you had a wrong weapon, and you were running low tier gear (anything that is not t8 gathering is low tier in my book - you need every little bit of edge, but thats ok).

      Here is some mistakes:
      1) Wrong weapon (as already mentioned). This is huge - should have used Bloodletter + shield.
      2) Did not use potion right away (you can use potion when silenced or stunned). You should have started your rotation with: Potion + cleanse + WW. But really with bloodletter, WW is not even needed (and that one puts you in combat, so its very situational)
      3) No shield offhand (goes with #1) to mitigate any kind of CC or physical DMG (like claws E)
      4) Mount off CD at 00:41 - ideally vs solo gankers who run a "1-trick pony" with specter shoes and who have no mobility - you want to start mounting right away when your mount is off CD. (you would have been further way with bloodletter double-dash btw).

      Now I know its easy to criticize players once you watch the video. But you asked for feedback here. I've done that countless times myself on my own videos. I even have a "death of a gatherer" compilation of me dying to 5+ groups on my youtube. But I've never died to a solo or duo gankers (granted, the meta and weapons have changed, and Im not longer in top 100 gatherers on the server), but still.

      Actually practicing in more "dangerous" areas is kind of better... as long as its just the solo/duo gankers that you have to counter. Fighting 5+ is 99% of the time impossible (in BZ, RZ is a whole diff thing and is mostly a joke) - that discussion has been driven into the ground already. Its better to just switch zones if you're getting ganked by 5+
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Zyntra wrote:

      plays.tv/video/5d1c91fe4cf36ef5c3/spectered

      Could I have done anything to not get ganked here?
      you actually did better then like 90% of people complaining on the forums... esp given that you had a wrong weapon, and you were running low tier gear (anything that is not t8 gathering is low tier in my book - you need every little bit of edge, but thats ok).
      Here is some mistakes:
      1) Wrong weapon (as already mentioned). This is huge - should have used Bloodletter + shield.
      2) Did not use potion right away (you can use potion when silenced or stunned). You should have started your rotation with: Potion + cleanse + WW. But really with bloodletter, WW is not even needed (and that one puts you in combat, so its very situational)
      3) No shield offhand (goes with #1) to mitigate any kind of CC or physical DMG (like claws E)
      4) Mount off CD at 00:41 - ideally vs solo gankers who run a "1-trick pony" with specter shoes and who have no mobility - you want to start mounting right away when your mount is off CD. (you would have been further way with bloodletter double-dash btw).

      Now I know its easy to criticize players once you watch the video. But you asked for feedback here. I've done that countless times myself on my own videos. I even have a "death of a gatherer" compilation of me dying to 5+ groups on my youtube. But I've never died to a solo or duo gankers (granted, the meta and weapons have changed, and Im not longer in top 100 gatherers on the server), but still.

      Actually practicing in more "dangerous" areas is kind of better... as long as its just the solo/duo gankers that you have to counter. Fighting 5+ is 99% of the time impossible (in BZ, RZ is a whole diff thing and is mostly a joke) - that discussion has been driven into the ground already. Its better to just switch zones if you're getting ganked by 5+
      Actually didnt ask for feedback, but thanks for you thoughts though. I know I fucked up and could have done things better. In retrospect you always see things you could improve on. This is why I record, so I can watch events again and see what I could have done better. Popping potion sooner is the first one I noticed myself. I use invis sometimes, but I prefer the windwall I think. Bloodletter would be better for the double dash, and I hate that. I hate that as a high tier gatherer, I'm forced to use a single specific weapon in a game that has 50 different weapons. I've read this before, and now I am going to have to start using it, for lack of an alternative. I don't like the bloodletter, so I hate that the meta forces me on a single weapon. All in all, I think I did fine. Its my first time encountering a specter ganker and I almost could have lived.

      Doesnt change the fact however that this was not consensual. The moment I got offered the 'choice' *ahem* of pvp was when he was already unloading his rotation on me. I am of the opinion that this has no place in the game. Give it a cooldown of 1 second before you can attack or something like that. At least offer me a split second moment to decide what to do with this assault.

      If the only way out of this type of ganking is running a specific set of spells/weapons/potions and popping your rotation in a perfect manner, then it is no longer a question of skill, its a question of meta. You either follow it and live, or dont, and die. Aint nobody want a singular meta.
    • Zyntra wrote:

      I use invis sometimes, but I prefer the windwall I think.
      Invis (Ambush on the chest to be exact) used to be the "first" meta. But I feel like its pretty much useless now. WW and "unique" gathering spell are both good and situational. This is now the new (second) meta.

      I prefer the "unique gathering spell" more, but thats just me. Actually in the case of Miner's Garb - that spell is "Wind shield". Its a better WW. You don't have to aim it and click it twice, you only click once and it knocks enemies back, and its 100% hit (will trigger) vs the WW, which can miss. So your other mistake was running WW over Wind Shield. WS is superior to WW on Miner Garb that is.

      Regarding meta - meta will always change (maybe not over the course of a day or a month, but definitely once or twice per year). More on "meta" further down.

      Zyntra wrote:

      Bloodletter would be better for the double dash, and I hate that. I hate that as a high tier gatherer, I'm forced to use a single specific weapon in a game that has 50 different weapons. I've read this before, and now I am going to have to start using it, for lack of an alternative. I don't like the bloodletter, so I hate that the meta forces me on a single weapon.
      Meta is only the beginning of a journey. You are free to use some other weapon, and test to see if it works better. I can tell you that its not the 1h spear that you were running (I think we can both agree on that). Double-bladed staff got indirectly buffed (when BL got nerfed) and can cover a lot of distance. So can spears with the "Inner focus" spell (side-effect is that you have to cast it, but it synergizes well with Wind Shield, as when you channel it - if ganker hits you - they get knocked away and you now get a speed buff of 80% for 6 sec). Point is - there are other "tools" and other metas out there, that might work. Peopl are just too lazy to test and perfect them, so they go for whatever has been the "meta" for years.

      Zyntra wrote:

      Doesnt change the fact however that this was not consensual.
      PVP in BZ was consensual - didnt you see the huge pop up when you entered the Black Zone that said there is now PVP and risk of death? You had to click "OK" on that pop up.

      Zyntra wrote:

      The moment I got offered the 'choice' *ahem* of pvp was when he was already unloading his rotation on me.
      Again - the moment you get offered PVP, is when you enter a RZ or a BZ. There is a pop-up on your screen (there is an option to click "do not display this again" - potentially you did that and thats why you dont see them?) Clicking "do not display this pop up again" does not change the fact that there is a warning that asks you to consent.

      Zyntra wrote:

      I am of the opinion that this has no place in the game. Give it a cooldown of 1 second before you can attack or something like that.
      Well - in Percival update (July 10th) Specter boots will get a 3 sec CD for auto-attacking when traveling invis for more then 20m. Its a small nerf, but hey... there you go ;)

      Zyntra wrote:

      If the only way out of this type of ganking is running a specific set of spells/weapons/potions and popping your rotation in a perfect manner,
      This goes both ways though. The ganker has to pop their rotation in a perfect execution as well. So everyone is even here.

      Zyntra wrote:

      then it is no longer a question of skill, its a question of meta. You either follow it and live, or dont, and die. Aint nobody want a singular meta.
      Oh its definitely a question of skill. We just both reviewed you play on the video and realized where you could have done better (you admitted that not using the potion was the 1st thing that stood out to you).
      Actually 2 types of skill are involved here:
      1) The gameplay skill (player skill) - ability to push buttons in the correct order, or quickly enough, or both
      2) The knowledge skill - knowing what the meta is, knowing what can beat the meta, and knowing what to expect from gankers. This is more of a broader "out of game" skill that players need to develop. Watching Youtube, following what changes come up in updates, etc...

      And as I already had said - the meta will always change... for the longest time it used to be Bloodletter + Horn offhand + ambush on chest + invis potion. But its no longer that.
    • The 1h spear can be a good option, but he had to run inner focus on W instead of forest of spears. giga -> E -> windwall -> W + boots and he could have escaped with a mot more HP.. The specter shoes will be nerfed, but anyway my problem with this kind of ganking is that the enemy can come from offscreen and you instantly lose your mount. If he has someone else, you can't do much. And yes, I don't think it's reasonable for gatherers to mount up and waste 20sec every time they see an offscreen nametag.
    • if there would not be this insta dissmount you will just face fact that there will be no more chance to escape, because gankers will have to group up in case to firstly dismount you, which wouldnt be possible in that scenario for solo ganker.
      So, overall this instant dismount is good for gatherers to have chance to escape xD

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Qolkkalom ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Zyntra wrote:

      I use invis sometimes, but I prefer the windwall I think.
      Invis (Ambush on the chest to be exact) used to be the "first" meta. But I feel like its pretty much useless now. WW and "unique" gathering spell are both good and situational. This is now the new (second) meta.
      I prefer the "unique gathering spell" more, but thats just me. Actually in the case of Miner's Garb - that spell is "Wind shield". Its a better WW. You don't have to aim it and click it twice, you only click once and it knocks enemies back, and its 100% hit (will trigger) vs the WW, which can miss. So your other mistake was running WW over Wind Shield. WS is superior to WW on Miner Garb that is.

      Regarding meta - meta will always change (maybe not over the course of a day or a month, but definitely once or twice per year). More on "meta" further down.

      Zyntra wrote:

      Bloodletter would be better for the double dash, and I hate that. I hate that as a high tier gatherer, I'm forced to use a single specific weapon in a game that has 50 different weapons. I've read this before, and now I am going to have to start using it, for lack of an alternative. I don't like the bloodletter, so I hate that the meta forces me on a single weapon.
      Meta is only the beginning of a journey. You are free to use some other weapon, and test to see if it works better. I can tell you that its not the 1h spear that you were running (I think we can both agree on that). Double-bladed staff got indirectly buffed (when BL got nerfed) and can cover a lot of distance. So can spears with the "Inner focus" spell (side-effect is that you have to cast it, but it synergizes well with Wind Shield, as when you channel it - if ganker hits you - they get knocked away and you now get a speed buff of 80% for 6 sec). Point is - there are other "tools" and other metas out there, that might work. Peopl are just too lazy to test and perfect them, so they go for whatever has been the "meta" for years.

      Zyntra wrote:

      Doesnt change the fact however that this was not consensual.
      PVP in BZ was consensual - didnt you see the huge pop up when you entered the Black Zone that said there is now PVP and risk of death? You had to click "OK" on that pop up.

      Zyntra wrote:

      The moment I got offered the 'choice' *ahem* of pvp was when he was already unloading his rotation on me.
      Again - the moment you get offered PVP, is when you enter a RZ or a BZ. There is a pop-up on your screen (there is an option to click "do not display this again" - potentially you did that and thats why you dont see them?) Clicking "do not display this pop up again" does not change the fact that there is a warning that asks you to consent.

      Zyntra wrote:

      I am of the opinion that this has no place in the game. Give it a cooldown of 1 second before you can attack or something like that.
      Well - in Percival update (July 10th) Specter boots will get a 3 sec CD for auto-attacking when traveling invis for more then 20m. Its a small nerf, but hey... there you go ;)

      Zyntra wrote:

      If the only way out of this type of ganking is running a specific set of spells/weapons/potions and popping your rotation in a perfect manner,
      This goes both ways though. The ganker has to pop their rotation in a perfect execution as well. So everyone is even here.

      Zyntra wrote:

      then it is no longer a question of skill, its a question of meta. You either follow it and live, or dont, and die. Aint nobody want a singular meta.
      Oh its definitely a question of skill. We just both reviewed you play on the video and realized where you could have done better (you admitted that not using the potion was the 1st thing that stood out to you).Actually 2 types of skill are involved here:
      1) The gameplay skill (player skill) - ability to push buttons in the correct order, or quickly enough, or both
      2) The knowledge skill - knowing what the meta is, knowing what can beat the meta, and knowing what to expect from gankers. This is more of a broader "out of game" skill that players need to develop. Watching Youtube, following what changes come up in updates, etc...

      And as I already had said - the meta will always change... for the longest time it used to be Bloodletter + Horn offhand + ambush on chest + invis potion. But its no longer that.
      Gotta be honest, I did not even consider wind shield, guess I'll try it out in scrims, see how it works.

      Some things I agree with, some I don't agree with. In any case, this isnt about a specific case of getting ganked, its about gamedesign and balance. And regardless of any video of ppl getting killed or killing while using specter boots, I think its safe to say we all agree that in their current form, specter boots are poorly designed. No way you can look at any of this and say, 'yeah, that's exactly how it should be'... I don't think they're sick OP, they just need a little tweak, which they are apparently getting in less than a week.

      And a 3 second cooldown, you call that a little nerf? :p Wow, imo these boots are useless with that kind of cd. But i'll guess we'll see about that once its patched ^^
    • I disagree for the shield in offhand, shield are good only in long fight with heals or vs %life damage. With a shield, your mount is a bit harder to kill, i know.

      But, the cdr is most important to survive. Double dash + active yours boots + invisibility to recover yours dash , dash again or mount up.

      Anyway, you're not supposed to be surprise and loose your mount like that. You see a player in offscreen ? Just run, you can stay on the map but not in the same location. If a ganker use specter it's because he saw you.
    • but if ur ganked by bl with horn and omelette ur still behind with cds so ure countering urself against most common ganking build.
      If u have shield, and ure as aware like ganker(which is about to spot you) you are more likely to survive, so... If you die with shield, that was mostly because he was better(in player skill).

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Qolkkalom ().

    • Zyntra wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      Zyntra wrote:

      plays.tv/video/5d1c91fe4cf36ef5c3/spectered

      Could I have done anything to not get ganked here?
      you actually did better then like 90% of people complaining on the forums... esp given that you had a wrong weapon, and you were running low tier gear (anything that is not t8 gathering is low tier in my book - you need every little bit of edge, but thats ok).Here is some mistakes:
      1) Wrong weapon (as already mentioned). This is huge - should have used Bloodletter + shield.
      2) Did not use potion right away (you can use potion when silenced or stunned). You should have started your rotation with: Potion + cleanse + WW. But really with bloodletter, WW is not even needed (and that one puts you in combat, so its very situational)
      3) No shield offhand (goes with #1) to mitigate any kind of CC or physical DMG (like claws E)
      4) Mount off CD at 00:41 - ideally vs solo gankers who run a "1-trick pony" with specter shoes and who have no mobility - you want to start mounting right away when your mount is off CD. (you would have been further way with bloodletter double-dash btw).

      Now I know its easy to criticize players once you watch the video. But you asked for feedback here. I've done that countless times myself on my own videos. I even have a "death of a gatherer" compilation of me dying to 5+ groups on my youtube. But I've never died to a solo or duo gankers (granted, the meta and weapons have changed, and Im not longer in top 100 gatherers on the server), but still.

      Actually practicing in more "dangerous" areas is kind of better... as long as its just the solo/duo gankers that you have to counter. Fighting 5+ is 99% of the time impossible (in BZ, RZ is a whole diff thing and is mostly a joke) - that discussion has been driven into the ground already. Its better to just switch zones if you're getting ganked by 5+
      Actually didnt ask for feedback, but thanks for you thoughts though. I know I fucked up and could have done things better. In retrospect you always see things you could improve on. This is why I record, so I can watch events again and see what I could have done better. Popping potion sooner is the first one I noticed myself. I use invis sometimes, but I prefer the windwall I think. Bloodletter would be better for the double dash, and I hate that. I hate that as a high tier gatherer, I'm forced to use a single specific weapon in a game that has 50 different weapons. I've read this before, and now I am going to have to start using it, for lack of an alternative. I don't like the bloodletter, so I hate that the meta forces me on a single weapon. All in all, I think I did fine. Its my first time encountering a specter ganker and I almost could have lived.
      Doesnt change the fact however that this was not consensual. The moment I got offered the 'choice' *ahem* of pvp was when he was already unloading his rotation on me. I am of the opinion that this has no place in the game. Give it a cooldown of 1 second before you can attack or something like that. At least offer me a split second moment to decide what to do with this assault.

      If the only way out of this type of ganking is running a specific set of spells/weapons/potions and popping your rotation in a perfect manner, then it is no longer a question of skill, its a question of meta. You either follow it and live, or dont, and die. Aint nobody want a singular meta.
      i don't even know where to start with this reply

      have albion players never played a sport in their lives, so have no concept of 'warmup';
      and never played an instrument, so have no concept of 'rehersal'

      My point is

      When you see two players duel in the bank or marketplace, notice the game is coded not to allow either player to do damage to the other until the countdown is complete

      3
      2
      1
      FIGHT!

      Before that, if either of them can do damage, this fight would be pointless. There would be no way to confirm who would have won if the start of the fight was fair.

      On top of that, somebody who went out to planning to attack a player, has an advantage over another player who is trying to use a tool on a node to gather resources.

      @ Abydon - you won't find me in the black zone for a while. I play this game a bit differently, I am choosing to prepare for few more months before I go out there to the black zone, and i'm glad I have, becuase I have learned so much in the past 3 months without having to keep losing my resources over small mistakes that I could have ironed out by training in a lower risk zone.

      So my point about 'rehersal' is this.



      This is my character right after gathering with some newly changed keybindings (decided to move my 'Auto attack selected target' from SPACE to D, and moved 'Exit dungeon/Dismount' from / to TAB). I messed up my button presses and somehow my mount went away, so as you can see I am highly over-encumbered.. is that 169%?

      But anyway, I wasn't able to move and didn't want to attack the bear but i had misclicked my way into the fight. Because I couldn't move much, I couldn't dodge the bear's stun attack this time around. The pvp player 'Fizzcock' saw this as a perfect opportunity so started attacking me.

      Since I was unable to get out of the bear, I just tried to attack it hoping it would die so i learn these new keybindings and make less mistakes next time. I didn't even bother attacking the player, because right now I have no interest in that. That build is set up for AOE, to attack multiple boars to train skinning, not a single target build. It can kill a single target but it's not efficient for that, as it's not designed for that specifically.

      So i'm half testing a build and half training skinning.

      Not focused on pvping. This is rehersal, by definition.



      So this guy sat there waiting the full 3 minutes for my character to be able to get up again, so that he could use me to raise his PvP kill fame.

      Especially since I didn't even attack him back.



      I didn't intend to attack him, I just wanted to get my mount to spawn again and I must have pressed D by accident, after he started attacking me.

      Anyway, since I had started attacking him, I thought I might as well try to kill him so I could have my first pvp kill.

      He started running away, but i took this screenshot before he went off screen.

      So, this thread is about 'balancing non consensual pvp'.

      Does Fizzcock look like he is consenting to pvp in the 3rd screenshot, when he's almost dead?

      I can't say every player is this way, but I can say Fizzcock wanted to force a player into pvp when he had an advantage, but when he finds he has a disadvantage, he wants to run from pvp.

      like seriously

      THAT needs to be fixed.

      RIght now, it's bull.
      » ᴘ ᴇ ɴ ɢ ᴜ ɪ ɴ • s ɴ ɪ ᴘ ᴇ ʀ « bit.ly/pokerface-albion
    • PenguinSniper wrote:

      I can't say every player is this way, but I can say Fizzcock wanted to force a player into pvp when he had an advantage, but when he finds he has a disadvantage, he wants to run from pvp.
      So? Do you except people to just stand there while you kill them? If you want to kill me, you gotta catch me first.

      PenguinSniper wrote:

      so that he could use me to raise his PvP kill fame.
      lmao. It was a yellow zone. If you don't understand game mechanics you aren't qualified to offer a fix to them.

      Sorry you're not "focused on PvP." There's a zone for that, the blue zones. No one can attack you there.
    • PenguinSniper wrote:

      I can't say every player is this way, but I can say Fizzcock wanted to force a player into pvp when he had an advantage, but when he finds he has a disadvantage, he wants to run from pvp.
      Thats just human nature...

      PenguinSniper wrote:

      like seriously

      THAT needs to be fixed.

      RIght now, it's bull.
      I don't think we can fix human nature. We can make games like Minecraft or Sims, or HelloKittyOnline - where there is no PVP (so we "block" the real aspects of human nature and pretend they do not exist). But that does not really "fix" human nature. It only "escapes" it. Its escapism.

      PS. You don't get PVP fame for duels or in Yellow Zone for knocking players down. You only get fame for an actual kill, when the other player dies.
    • Zyntra wrote:

      Happened to me for the first time as well. Was not very consensual I have to say :P He passed me by a couple minutes earlier. I mounted and chased him a little, he kept on going south and I couldnt get close enough to inspect him, see what gear he was wearing. He kept running, so I figured he was afraid of me. Turned back after a while and started on a T7 node. Couple minutes later, the clip below happened.

      plays.tv/video/5d1c91fe4cf36ef5c3/spectered

      Could I have done anything to not get ganked here? Sure. I could have gone back to whatever place is safe for me immediately after seeing one guy on the edge of my screen. Just mount up and go home as soon as you realize you are not alone in the zone. Weirdly enough, that is the play you have to make while these boots allow you to invis get on top of someone from off-screen. This shit doesnt happen a lot, it is hard to get off and not mess it up. So I'm not really mad about this gank, however unfair it is.

      That being said, I don't like the design of this. I made more money earlier than I lost in this death, so for me its all in good fun. But some other, newer, or less active player than myself, may just lose half his bankroll by getting ganked without there being anything he could have done. And thats just not right.
      use dbl dashletter and instead of eat all the clawdmg+burn u could use ur helmet do neglect 3s of that before running away, and follow through with the mounting would give u mount hp to maybe get to the exit