Any Dev Response to the public outcry against Caerleon/Hector?

  • We are happy to respond to this.

    Be warned though that those critical about the update won't like the response.

    Note that when you say "public outcry" over the changes, it's far from it. Every change that has the potential to be controversial will always trigger a decently sized thread from those who are against it. The fact alone that such a thread exists is not an indicator that a change was bad. I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before, the resulting negative thread would easily be 5-10 times larger.

    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.

    Now, I know that the reaction to this response is going to be from those who do not like the Caerleon change: "The devs are stupid/dense, they ignore the community and don't listen to feedback" This however, is not the case. We are listening, we are evaluating, we have evaluated and are convinced - taking all info into account - that the current set-up is much better than how it was before. Listening to feedback is different from agreeing with it.
  • @Korn
    I do def appreciate the response. Would not say anything of that nature personally though I do disagree vehemently with the solution. I am more hoping for a response in the thread mentioned that responds to the issues listed....map size plans, bz plans, open world content plans, etc. I suppose some will be answered by the next state of the game post. Folks in that thread are just desperately waiting for news that some parts of what we loved about albion that might comback and enrich our world. Mostly i personally am concerned about the oversimplification of this last patch. Thanks for your response again.

    NOte:
    While it did make red and bz more accessible the question is about quality not easy access to the end game area. Also while trade flows to caerleon what about all the trade routes that were destroyed by the shrinking world?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Raithe ().

  • Korn wrote:

    We are happy to respond to this.

    Be warned though that those critical about the update won't like the response.

    Note that when you say "public outcry" over the changes, it's far from it. Every change that has the potential to be controversial will always trigger a decently sized thread from those who are against it. The fact alone that such a thread exists is not an indicator that a change was bad. I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before, the resulting negative thread would easily be 5-10 times larger.

    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.

    Now, I know that the reaction to this response is going to be from those who do not like the Caerleon change: "The devs are stupid/dense, they ignore the community and don't listen to feedback" This however, is not the case. We are listening, we are evaluating, we have evaluated and are convinced - taking all info into account - that the current set-up is much better than how it was before. Listening to feedback is different from agreeing with it.
    I love how you always come here and denounce the majority of public feedback, without providing any numbers or evidence to support this claim, simply you just say its not true.

    Lets talk about your data. Your data is wrong and has always been wrong due to improper collection and testing. You changed the control map each time you made a change based on the previous control map. Which is absolutely retarded. No one does this. If you told a 7th grader in science class you did this they would laugh at you. Again, no one does this. This is why your data is flawed and always has been flawed.

    Where are these trade routes you speak of Korn? Are you talking about the pathetic 1 and 1/2 zones from yellow cities to red cities? You consider that successful trade run routes? The bar must not be set very high, in fact it must be at the ankles. Quite pathetic. Make it about danger versus distance traveled? You actually made it shorter and less dangerous is your brain so small you cant see that? I run naked alts with millions of silver worth of items without escort or worry. But yea dude! totally dangerous!

    Where are the trade runs from red to black and back again? Where are they? I dont see any. In fact territories have been mostly used to just farm resources, make resources, and stash those resources in the black zone territory. They do not export these goods, they are for the guild and alliance. So where are these trade runs?

    Cearleon is a failure and a great blunder. You made it so you want to say, "Mission Accomplished!" when in reality you failed and dont want to admit it. Lets see some of that sick data backing your claims though!
    The True Victor.

    Make Albion Great Again!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Roor ().

  • "Extensive Beta testing" You're talking about the founder beta 1 & 2 right? Who did the beta testing on Hector/Caerleon update? Cuz I know we didn't. It was crammed in there ~40 days before release and left in place. Now the capital city is a laggy shit fest with instanced zones. (Whatever, call them phases, they are INSTANCES). Lame.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Dragnon ().

  • If the issue was poor access to black zones, there are many potential solutions to that. Creating one city to rule them all and removing all trade routs that were actually dangerous, (not sure how you came to the conclusion what exists atm has dangerous, or even meaningful trade routs.) does not even address the issue of black zone access. You just happened to put portals there and said "problem solved". Very simple minded solution that created more problems that it set out to solve.
  • Korn wrote:

    We are happy to respond to this.

    Be warned though that those critical about the update won't like the response.

    Note that when you say "public outcry" over the changes, it's far from it. Every change that has the potential to be controversial will always trigger a decently sized thread from those who are against it. The fact alone that such a thread exists is not an indicator that a change was bad. I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before, the resulting negative thread would easily be 5-10 times larger.

    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.

    Now, I know that the reaction to this response is going to be from those who do not like the Caerleon change: "The devs are stupid/dense, they ignore the community and don't listen to feedback" This however, is not the case. We are listening, we are evaluating, we have evaluated and are convinced - taking all info into account - that the current set-up is much better than how it was before. Listening to feedback is different from agreeing with it.
    BZ and RED zone inactivity SOLVED. But i left the game, not played for a week. I simply play Hereos of Storm these days and some Paladins to fill my last summer days. Evaluating data and resulting like that is a joke, Sorry. :)

    Inactivity cant be solved by Teleports. This game still alive because it is under the mask of "release" so if i enter the game right now i prolly would see that population half decreased even in caerleon. I am really wondering that your data will still be helping you after some months like that.

    I wont mean the trade routes. There you killed so many things and future albion content that we never ever met. Dont you see or you just lazy? No money to create content? No one said that we want old map. We just want old map with improvements and some logical placements also changes. [TO SOLVE INACTIVITY]

    You evaluated these data to improve the recent map that we had before right? So what about old evaluated datas like fast-travel is trash. Why we have teleports now XD
    short timed passenger
  • Korn wrote:

    I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before....
    We are not asking for that. The fact that you say this in your response indicates to me that you have not read the thread in question at all.

    We are asking for a solution to the current problems with the Caerleon map in a way that addresses the issues raised in the thread. None of which your responses so far have touched upon.

    Wormholes.

    Greyzones.

    Linear access to Black Zone.

    Possible land access to Black Zone.

    Real trade routes with proper risk / reward factors.

    Trade routes out of Caerleon instead of just into Caerleon.

    Viable markets late game other than Caerleon.

    Viable reasons to put your island anywhere other than Caerleon.

    Increased importance of cities other than Caerleon.

    Game world too small for population.



    None of what you have stated here has addressed of acknowledged any of these suggestions or concerns.


    @Korn

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Balabhadra ().

  • Korn wrote:



    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.
    • Only trading routes what really happens is T3 refined resources from biome cities to Caerleon. Thats mostly the trading and not like you described it. So this part has been a huge failure with Caerleon change.
    • There was no Outlands in beta1. ;)
    • Problem of beta2 was, that the world was too large when compared to player base. Thats why there was not enough action.
    • Making Outland cities more attractive would been enough with current massive population to create localizations all over the world.
    • Maybe beta testing was extensive, but you cant say that when we talk about Hector patch and these major reworks related to Caerleon as main hub. This part was not tested properly before release and it went to live with about 5 weeks of testing, without wipe and with under populated testers.
  • I Can't believe you didnt read or didnt see the point of what the issues are people are complaining about.
    Nobody asks you to change the whole Map again!

    Make other Cities important too.
    Do something so that trading makes sence again including trading routes. There are possibilitys to do so WITHOUT changing the map design itself!

    The reply in this forum might not worry you but the impact of your game should!
    Without changes you will kill your own game. How shall new players ever catch up when the only city that matters is carleon how shall they ever close the gap to blackzone guilds?
    Your reply is very frustrating to most of us.

    Please!!!! Make a poll so that you get real data after real testing!!! Weather or not the playerbase think's that we dont need balancing when it comes to cities.

    Your data about the last Beta is a joke! Sorry but most ppl. didnt have any motivation to play seriously because of your failed "Final Beta".

    Ok enough for today i bet you like to reconsider in a max. timeline of 2 month. :(
  • Roor wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    We are happy to respond to this.

    Be warned though that those critical about the update won't like the response.

    Note that when you say "public outcry" over the changes, it's far from it. Every change that has the potential to be controversial will always trigger a decently sized thread from those who are against it. The fact alone that such a thread exists is not an indicator that a change was bad. I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before, the resulting negative thread would easily be 5-10 times larger.

    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.

    Now, I know that the reaction to this response is going to be from those who do not like the Caerleon change: "The devs are stupid/dense, they ignore the community and don't listen to feedback" This however, is not the case. We are listening, we are evaluating, we have evaluated and are convinced - taking all info into account - that the current set-up is much better than how it was before. Listening to feedback is different from agreeing with it.
    I love how you always come here and denounce the majority of public feedback, without providing any numbers or evidence to support this claim, simply you just say its not true.
    Lets talk about your data. Your data is wrong and has always been wrong due to improper collection and testing. You changed the control map each time you made a change based on the previous control map. Which is absolutely retarded. No one does this. If you told a 7th grader in science class you did this they would laugh at you. Again, no one does this. This is why your data is flawed and always has been flawed.

    Where are these trade routes you speak of Korn? Are you talking about the pathetic 1 and 1/2 zones from yellow cities to red cities? You consider that successful trade run routes? The bar must not be set very high, in fact it must be at the ankles. Quite pathetic. Make it about danger versus distance traveled? You actually made it shorter and less dangerous is your brain so small you cant see that? I run naked alts with millions of silver worth of items without escort or worry. But yea dude! totally dangerous!

    Where are the trade runs from red to black and back again? Where are they? I dont see any. In fact territories have been mostly used to just farm resources, make resources, and stash those resources in the black zone territory. They do not export these goods, they are for the guild and alliance. So where are these trade runs?

    Cearleon is a failure and a great blunder. You made it so you want to say, "Mission Accomplished!" when in reality you failed and dont want to admit it. Lets see some of that sick data backing your claims though!
    Says the guy calling SI out for lack of data and then claiming Cearleon is a failure without any data.
  • Not fully understanding the perspective of the folks complaining about portals. Do you really find it more entertaining to mindlessly run 10 zones to get to the port followed by then potentially running another 4-5 zones to hit your desired zone? The previous system was tedious and caused all folks not living in black to not bother. Now the Caerleon portal system minimizes the dead travel time and more people can spend the time playing the game. Black zones are still popping with constant PvP and people.
  • Tabor wrote:

    Not fully understanding the perspective of the folks complaining about portals. Do you really find it more entertaining to mindlessly run 10 zones to get to the port followed by then potentially running another 4-5 zones to hit your desired zone? The previous system was tedious and caused all folks not living in black to not bother. Now the Caerleon portal system minimizes the dead travel time and more people can spend the time playing the game. Black zones are still popping with constant PvP and people.
    Not sure anyone made the claim the old port system was great. The claim is the solution to it was very poor.
  • ntall1 wrote:

    Tabor wrote:

    Not fully understanding the perspective of the folks complaining about portals. Do you really find it more entertaining to mindlessly run 10 zones to get to the port followed by then potentially running another 4-5 zones to hit your desired zone? The previous system was tedious and caused all folks not living in black to not bother. Now the Caerleon portal system minimizes the dead travel time and more people can spend the time playing the game. Black zones are still popping with constant PvP and people.
    Not sure anyone made the claim the old port system was great. The claim is the solution to it was very poor.
    The game went from being a sandbox open world to being a series of instances and warps for instant action. I suppose that's better for tablet players which....if you think about it....this game is really designed for primarily.
  • Being able to get to a specific area faster does not hamper open world action in fact it increases it as the zerged out black zones everywhere is showing. Once you use the portal you still have to caravan threw several zones of unrestricted PvP to arrive at your territory the pointless run across green zones to get to black is now limited.
  • Korn wrote:

    We are happy to respond to this.

    Be warned though that those critical about the update won't like the response.

    Note that when you say "public outcry" over the changes, it's far from it. Every change that has the potential to be controversial will always trigger a decently sized thread from those who are against it. The fact alone that such a thread exists is not an indicator that a change was bad. I can assure you that if we changed the system back from Caerleon to how it was before, the resulting negative thread would easily be 5-10 times larger.

    The main goals of the Caerleon rework were as follows:
    • Make the Outlands more accessible and increase activity in the Outlands
    • Make the red zones more accessible and increase activity in the red zones
    • Have a clear blue <-> yellow <-> red <-> black trade route, and make trade about danger rather than distance traveled
    These goals were formulated based on extensive beta testing. Memory is often selected, so a lot of players will have forgotten how the situation was in Beta 1 and Beta 2. Outland cities never worked. They were never really populated, and never hard a working market in them. Overall accessibility and population density in the Outlands was terrible. One of the most received complaints received was lack of action and activity in the Outlands. The barrier to entry for non-territory holding guilds to venture/roam the Outlands were drastic.

    Based on our evaluation and supporting data, the Caerleon rework was a great success and achieved its stated goals.

    Now, I know that the reaction to this response is going to be from those who do not like the Caerleon change: "The devs are stupid/dense, they ignore the community and don't listen to feedback" This however, is not the case. We are listening, we are evaluating, we have evaluated and are convinced - taking all info into account - that the current set-up is much better than how it was before. Listening to feedback is different from agreeing with it.
    Thanks for taking the time to reply.

    Can I ask what "supporting data" you refer to in your post? If this data is simply population numbers in zones x,y and z, then I guess your Caerleon change did the job, (although you only tested the update for a few short weeks prior to release when numbers were low and the game more advanced than it is now. Time may show that you even failed in the zone population solution when the dust settles)

    There is far more to it than this though, which you are simply not acknowledging.

    Yes, the old system didnt work and you needed to apply a change/fix. The Caerleon solution though may have solved the problem but it created numerous more problems that didnt exist before. You have simply replaced one bad system with another, both with serious defects.

    Surely there is a better solution all round, and many proposals have been made in the other thread explaining what the problems are and how they could be solved. The current Caerleon solution created as many problems as it solved. There are other ways.
    Midgard
    T8 Fibre, Ore, Hide, Wood & Stone Gatherer
    T8 Gathering Gear Crafter
    T8 Bags & Capes Crafter
  • Dragnon wrote:

    ntall1 wrote:

    Tabor wrote:

    Not fully understanding the perspective of the folks complaining about portals. Do you really find it more entertaining to mindlessly run 10 zones to get to the port followed by then potentially running another 4-5 zones to hit your desired zone? The previous system was tedious and caused all folks not living in black to not bother. Now the Caerleon portal system minimizes the dead travel time and more people can spend the time playing the game. Black zones are still popping with constant PvP and people.
    Not sure anyone made the claim the old port system was great. The claim is the solution to it was very poor.
    The game went from being a sandbox open world to being a series of instances and warps for instant action. I suppose that's better for tablet players which....if you think about it....this game is really designed for primarily.
    What tablet players? This game won't be on mobile for I bet at last a year! LOL. And by that time the game may be dead.