Hidden gear nerf - remove Cluster reduction (for PvE at least)

  • Dixi wrote:

    This Cluster reduction turns expensive gear like T6.1 in such crap, that in Hellgate you have no chances vs two players in T3 gear... It just makes my repair bill much more. :(
    In pure PvE dungeons (T4 Undead Graveyard) melee char still can't kill solo one stronger skeleton! Where is the progress in game? What for I'm grinding silver?
    Go make hellgate on bz that's why you're grinding.
  • Dixi wrote:

    Oki, you can give many arguments to go to full loot zones.

    But we speak about unexpected hidden gear nerf, that we want to be removed, because it spoil major part of gameplay.
    It is not hidden. You can check yellow has gear cap red also blue also it's not hidden you just don't read....
    it's like that from beta 1 ...
  • Dixi wrote:

    I recently noticed that improving my gear does not gives expected effect. Checking whats the problem about, I found that all combat items power are significantly nerfed for a value over -120 in all blue zones, hellgates, and public area dungeons. I suppose this "Cluster reduction" exists to make PvP combat more even. Okay, I don't care about pvp, but this feature makes PvE almost not fun at all. Whats the reason to upgrade my gear and pay much more for repairs, if it gives almost no return in T4 public dungeons and in duo (orange) hellgates?
    If this power reduction is necessary for PvP leave it to PvP combat only, and please, let us hunt mobs normal way without converting high level expensive gear into nearly stock level 4.0 gear!

    Updated 02 aug 2017

    Real problem for more PvE oriented part of community, is that we will soon have no goals in game. Devs said something like "the game is about guild and small group PvP, and also fun for PvE players in safe zones". So we expected that accessible to us part of world (blue and sometimes yellow) is big enough and gives us enough entertainment. Farming in this game, with 22h timer on crops, is only a side task. So we came to hunt mobs, solo, duo, and in small groups. For that task, we, of course, going to improve our gear and skills. And we want to see visible return from investment of time and game silver. So far, most effective way to be more powerful, looks like to upgrade gear. Equipping new weapon or armor in town shows correct stats and total gear power gain.
    But as soon as we go to typical T4 zone, and enter a dungeon or hellgate, our gear is getting a stealth nerf! Those cursed Culser reduction, removes sufficient percent from all gear stats - hit points, resists, damage.
    Really, whats the reason to improve my gear and invest a lot of silver and time, if we getting killed same way by 5 undead mobs in T4 public dungeon?!
    Some days ago we came as 4 man group in T3-T4 gear, and were killed by a group of undead. Okay, we were newbies in a bad gear... Now we came also as 4 man, but in 4.2 gear and were expecting, that we will be able to roam around dungeon, that is "suitable for 3-5 man groups", as tooltip says. Instead we got killed by stronger group of 5 undeads, without bosses.

    Could you please remove Cluster reduction, at least from PvE part of the game. Else we'll loose interest to Albion very soon. :(
    The real problem for pve players is not a soft cap on gear (will get into that later), it is the pve content in general, if you uncapped gear in yellow and blue zones (seems that you are mostly referring to blue zones by reading most of this thread) you would simply get to a point where everything could be killed with one or two spells, what kind of content is that? By keeping gear capped in these starter zones many things happen that are not maybe apparent and one such thing is that the pve stays relatively difficult. On a side note the pve in this game is incredibly weak, I am part of a guild that has farmed the hardest raid in the game since day 2 (not easily per say, but it was done); the mechanics revolve around kiting the boss because he hits to hard or moving out of the uninterruptible skill. More engaging pve would a welcome addition for sure.

    With regards to the idea that the gear is getting stealth nerfed, it does say it in game you just need to look for it; however that isn't the main issue as I read later that you don't like having to go to the forums for an answer. This game is a sandbox (or at least is trying(whole other topic)) and that means that you need to learn things and do things for yourself. The game isn't going to give you tangible goals necessarily.

    Dixi wrote:

    althoradeem wrote:

    your not supposed to be in a T7+ set in the yellow zones content is made for T6 max
    I'm wearing 4.1 - 4.2 stuff, that's below T6. Higher then T5 stuff is terribly overpriced now, and that might last for a while.And "supposed" does not mean forbidden. Also where do you expect us, pve players to wear shiny stuff? In free pvp zones? - No thanks. We came here to play and have fun, not to bring free loot to pvp zergs and gate campers. So we are not planning to visit those free pvp zones, for a while, at least in this year.
    This goes back to the soft cap on gear, roughly 6.0 or 900 item power is the soft cap in yellow zones (it is even lower in blue zones) as a means to balance out the game for people that are newer, the yellow zones are the first taste of pvp most players get and if it was not capped it would be terribly unfun to be one shot by someone in tier 8. With a soft cap it balances this out and the cap is right around the gear level that you would be at before considering moving out into red/black zones. If you do not wish to go to those zones you can stay in the safe areas and use any tier of gear you want, it is not forbidding you from wearing it (the game doesn't actually stop you, it just discourages you) and you will still get some value out of it as 900 item power is a soft cap, not a hard cap. Also as far as the full loot pvp zones go, part of staying alive in them is knowing how to traverse them: in red zones keep an eye on the hostile counter and watch out for the red circles that indicate 11+ players. The other part is wearing gear that you can afford to replace with relative ease, when I don't have people to do dungeons with I go to solo dungeons in the black zones, these are quick but risky if a group shows up so I farm them with 4.1; the set costs me roughly 10-15k while the mobs of one clear can easily net me 20+ and this is with a 50% guild tax. It is about risk/reward, yellow and blue zones are minimal risk and as such provide minimal reward.

    Dixi wrote:

    This Cluster reduction turns expensive gear like T6.1 in such crap, that in Hellgate you have no chances vs two players in T3 gear... It just makes my repair bill much more. :(
    In pure PvE dungeons (T4 Undead Graveyard) melee char still can't kill solo one stronger skeleton! Where is the progress in game? What for I'm grinding silver?
    I assume you are talking about blue zone duo hellgates, and yes these have harsh gear caps so that the fights are more about skill than gear. Also keep in mind these are for small groups (1-2 people) that are very new to the game and way some semblance of controlled pvp. Yellow zone hellgates have a higher soft cap and are meant for groups of 5 with no gear loss at risk. However you should with most builds be able to take on two people in tier 3 with tier 4 and upwards as you have full access to the spells of the tree you are in. The game intends to push you towards the higher tier zones, you don't have to go to them but keep in mind that that is where you are progressing to; there are plenty of people that stay in yellow zones for the entire time they play the game, but you will not get the full reward of the higher tiered gear if you choose to do so. Keep in mind that blue zones are intended for players tier 1 to tier 3, while yellow zones are intended for players tier 4 to ~tier 6. (See item power note below)

    Item power and tiers:
    Since I noticed the one issue you seemed to have with t6 =/= t4.2, this is actually false; the raw stats of a 6.0 and 4.2 piece of gear is exactly the same, the change comes from your masteries and specialization, as you progress to tier 6 you gain bonus item power for all weapons or armors in that tree and specialization for a particular type of weapon or armor. So if you have let's say 30/100 in swords and 20/100 in broadswords your tier 6 broadsword would have 955 item power while a 4.2 claymore would only get 915 item power as you are missing the specialization for the 4.2 weapon. This also means that someone who can only use t4 (1/100 masteries) would have 900.2 item power with a 4.2 weapon while someone with the t6 version would get ~955 item power. Hope that makes some sense.
    Glaive (rip)
    Infernal #1 :D ...ALSO RIP
    I am also eternally poor.
  • stop saying high end people would go 1-shot everything if their stuff isn't nerfed, it's hyperbolic and misleading
    T8 is like 25% better than T4, and gear is nerfed before T8, the progression is already weak and made even weaker arbitrarily.

    All these fancy justifications don't mean anything in reality, nobody wants to have their progress nerfed for any reason, especially dumb ones like someone whining about getting knocked down in yellow zone, they will get knocked down in yellow zone anyway with or without high level gear involved, and 99% of all people are not flagged in yellow, you lose rep attacking people and gain for a kill the same silver you can get from taking 2 seconds to skin a fox, who cares if some high level person kills you 25% faster they fucking earned that 25% by playing 100x longer than 90% of the people that buy this game.

    You say it's to help new people well how about tell a new person their progression doesn't mean a lot and see how long they grind after finding out about it.
    Hi new people, don't worry about getting cool gear or leveling up a lot, just get to T4 and equip some trash go into red/black with a big mob and you're at the end-game.
    No seriously, you should almost always buy trash, anything expensive is less useful than trash in this game if you want to consistently profit in the "end-game"
    Also level specialist but not the core skills, core skills are useless because they just unlock more expensive things that are less useful than trash.
    Most expensive things will give you only a small % bonus in red/black and even smaller % in any area where you can't lose them, so only ever buy cheap junk ok.
    If you don't want to go get killed by zerg mobs and gankers and prefer safe zone gameplay while wearing your best gear, then just stop at 4.2 gear you're basically max level after 1 day of playing, congratulations.

    seriously wtf even is this game, is everyone just jerking off to EVE nullsec and never understanding why that game works

    There needs to be high-end PvE in yellow zones and not have retarded IP decay as some make-shift "incentive" to go into red/black
    red/black need incentives like better loot better fame better territories more events etc. Not 'your most expensive stuff isn't nerfed here but can be looted the second you lag out'

    this power limit is bad design, people have less incentive to amass money for buying some 25mil set of gear because the game refuses to let them use powerful gear without running around in lootable PvP
    it's all well and good that it's a softcap, but the progression is already so weak that any amount of nerf after is just insulting, I should grind for 500 hours to get a 5% bonus?
    if SBI wants more people buying gold they need a place for people to use their diamond encrusted armor and weapons without losing them to server problems or zergs
    this is complete nonsense and anyone defending it really has no idea what they're talking about
    T9 Game Designer - T5 Programmer - T4 Artist - T4 Sound Engineer - T4 Publisher - T1 PR

    The post was edited 2 times, last by ParadoxOmega ().

  • ParadoxOmega wrote:

    stop saying high end people would go 1-shot everything if their stuff isn't nerfed, it's hyperbolic and misleading
    T8 is like 25% better than T4, and gear is nerfed before T8, the progression is already weak and made even weaker arbitrarily.

    All these fancy justifications don't mean anything in reality, nobody wants to have their progress nerfed for any reason, especially dumb ones like someone whining about getting knocked down in yellow zone, they will get knocked down in yellow zone anyway with or without high level gear involved, and 99% of all people are not flagged in yellow, you lose rep attacking people and gain for a kill the same silver you can get from taking 2 seconds to skin a fox, who cares if some high level person kills you 25% faster they fucking earned that 25% by playing 100x longer than 90% of the people that buy this game.

    You say it's to help new people well how about tell a new person their progression doesn't mean a lot and see how long they grind after finding out about it.
    Hi new people, don't worry about getting cool gear or leveling up a lot, just get to T4 and equip some trash go into red/black with a big mob and you're at the end-game.
    No seriously, you should almost always buy trash, anything expensive is less useful than trash in this game if you want to consistently profit in the "end-game"
    Also level specialist but not the core skills, core skills are useless because they just unlock more expensive things that are less useful than trash.
    Most expensive things will give you only a small % bonus in red/black and even smaller % in any area where you can't lose them, so only ever buy cheap junk ok.
    If you don't want to go get killed by zerg mobs and gankers and prefer safe zone gameplay while wearing your best gear, then just stop at 4.2 gear you're basically max level after 1 day of playing, congratulations.

    seriously wtf even is this game, is everyone just jerking off to EVE nullsec and never understanding why that game works

    There needs to be high-end PvE in yellow zones and not have retarded IP decay as some make-shift "incentive" to go into red/black
    red/black need incentives like better loot better fame better territories more events etc. Not 'your most expensive stuff isn't nerfed here but can be looted the second you lag out'

    this power limit is bad design, people have less incentive to amass money for buying some 25mil set of gear because the game refuses to let them use powerful gear without running around in lootable PvP
    it's all well and good that it's a softcap, but the progression is already so weak that any amount of nerf after is just insulting, I should grind for 500 hours to get a 5% bonus?
    if SBI wants more people buying gold they need a place for people to use their diamond encrusted armor and weapons without losing them to server problems or zergs
    this is complete nonsense and anyone defending it really has no idea what they're talking about
    Alright let me break down the numbers for you. Keep in mind there were recent changes that I strongly disagree with in regards to tier 8 gear in that you get less item power as you reach the very end of the gear limit. Yellow zones have a soft cap of 900 item power, this is a t6.0 gear set with no bonuses. Now for the math: (for simplicity sake we will not address the reduced scaling at the very end, it effectively means that 7.3 and 8.3 are roughly equal so you can just take off one tier worth of power)
    Each tier is 100 item power above the previous and 100 item power is roughly a 9.2% increase in stats (this is slightly different as the math behind +100 item power and +200 item power makes it such that the second set of 100 gives you a little more of a bonus). Tier 4.0 is 700 item power while tier 8 is 1100 and 8.3 is 1300 (it is actually slightly higher than this but this will give us nicer numbers to look at). If we include masteries the difference is much higher: T8 requires 100/100 which is 20 additional item power and if they have 100/100 specialization in the weapon/armor they get +200 item power and the other trees each give +20 for the weapon if maxed out; so the absolute highest bonus from grinding would be 280 additional item power on anything in that tree (say fire staves and light armor). This means that a full maxed out person has ~80% increase to his stats over someone in 4.0. However this is not the issue at hand here.

    The problem that you have with the game is on a more philosophical level and partly the fault of them making the red and black zones out to be this horribly scary place. The game is about full loot where you are a risk of losing your fancy gear if you are not careful. There is a reason most people don't run around full loot areas in the most expensive stuff they can afford: they can't replace it if they die. You or your guild sets up an economy and this determines what you are willing to risk for the gains. The game is set up to encourage you to continue moving up in both terms of risk and tiers, the best the game has to offer in terms of pve (which coming from someone who has done the pve in this game since the first beta: it is bad, it has gotten better but it is bad, like real bad) and rewards. Keep in mind that other than the raids the pve in this game is effectively the same whether you are in a t4 yellow zone or a t7 black zone dungeon. The yellow zones even have their own unique raid at inis mon, though this is an auto flag area and highly contested when the boss spawns.

    "There needs to be high-end PvE in yellow zones and not have retarded IP decay as some make-shift "incentive" to go into red/black
    red/black need incentives like better loot better fame better territories more events etc. Not 'your most expensive stuff isn't nerfed here but can be looted the second you lag out'"
    The incentives for red and black zones are in fact rather bad, aside from open world benefits there is little to be gained from living in these zones. This is most notable from the fact that Nilfgaard, a guild that has been around since alpha testing lives in a city rather than a black zone building territory. Also look at the soft cap like this: it incentivizes people to go into the red/black as well as provides a more balanced experience between newer and more veteran players. As for high end pve, the expeditions will probably be more engaging for you than the black zone dungeons anyway; grab a group in tier 4.1 (costs ~10-15k silver) and go try these dungeons if you are curious, they are mind melting-ly boring.

    "this power limit is bad design, people have less incentive to amass money for buying some 25mil set of gear because the game refuses to let them use powerful gear without running around in lootable PvP
    it's all well and good that it's a softcap, but the progression is already so weak that any amount of nerf after is just insulting, I should grind for 500 hours to get a 5% bonus?
    if SBI wants more people buying gold they need a place for people to use their diamond encrusted armor and weapons without losing them to server problems or zergs
    this is complete nonsense and anyone defending it really has no idea what they're talking about"
    Unfortunately I feel there is a misunderstanding of the game you have signed up for here in the simple comment that you are buying wickedly expensive gear for the purpose of pve, this is not the kind of game where pve is a strong focus. It has improved slightly but is mostly a means to an end, rather than an end in and of itself.
    The progression is a whole other issue and had been nerfed from past tests where it was as high as 20% between the tiers.
    With regards to spending gold on gear, this I would argue comes from a place of misunderstanding of the game, while yes you can dump ridiculous amounts of gold into the market to buy the most expensive gear; you are missing the part where this is a game with rarity on the high end fancy stuff partly with it's rarity of resources but more importantly the issue that these items can be lost forever. The game is built with the idea in mind that you can lose everything you have on you and as such should not be providing a full safe haven for ever experience in the game if it is to hold onto some of that identity.
    Glaive (rip)
    Infernal #1 :D ...ALSO RIP
    I am also eternally poor.
  • monsterSK wrote:

    I am part of a guild that has farmed the hardest raid in the game since day 2
    I go to solo dungeons in the black zones, these are quick but risky if a group shows up so I farm them with 4.1; the set costs me roughly 10-15k
    You have more money than the average person, and still use trash in PvP area,
    You are not willing to risk expensive gear for running the dungeons, but you don't see the problem with a 6.3 masterpiece artifact being nerfed outside lootable PvP
    anything 4.2+ gets nerfed in non-PvP zones so people should go to red/black , but then do it with 4.1 because of the risk involved
    this is exactly the point - expensive gear has no place in the game for 99% of people
    progression in this game is busted to hell and this gear nerf isn't helping
    T9 Game Designer - T5 Programmer - T4 Artist - T4 Sound Engineer - T4 Publisher - T1 PR

    The post was edited 1 time, last by ParadoxOmega ().

  • ParadoxOmega wrote:

    monsterSK wrote:

    I am part of a guild that has farmed the hardest raid in the game since day 2
    I go to solo dungeons in the black zones, these are quick but risky if a group shows up so I farm them with 4.1; the set costs me roughly 10-15k
    You have more money than the average person, and still use trash in PvP area,You are not willing to risk expensive gear for running the dungeons, but you don't see the problem with a 6.3 masterpiece artifact being nerfed outside lootable PvP
    anything 4.2+ gets nerfed in non-PvP zones so people should go to red/black , but then do it with 4.1 because of the risk involved
    this is exactly the point - expensive gear has no place in the game for 99% of people
    progression in this game is busted to hell and this gear nerf isn't helping
    I am actually typically one of the most poor players and in a guild with 50% tax it is certainly hard to say that I am one with more money, I have 100k silver to my name at the moment but am working on setting up a proper economic system for premium. I use 4.1 in solo dungeons because it is likely a group of 3-4 will come in and I can't beat that, I use t6 for group fame so that I am not a dead weight in the party. There is a misunderstanding here of expensive gear; most of the population is not at the point where they can gather even t6 and as a result the amount of gear available is very low. Past tests with much lower numbers have shown that the 'tier bubble' (easily affordable gear) goes up the farther from start we get, the intention I believe is for tier 6 to be the open world standard while t7-8 are more rare. The progression is not solely about wearing the most expensive gear you can equip and I am not sure I can explain this to you, but in a game where everything is crafted from what people gather you have three options: severely limit resources, add higher gear as people progress or put systems in place that trash crafted gear. Albion has gone for the third option with the first being mixed in at higher tiers, gear isn't something that is meant to stick around forever.
    Glaive (rip)
    Infernal #1 :D ...ALSO RIP
    I am also eternally poor.
  • So many players agree, that gear progression is made significantly pointless, by Cluster Reduction. :(
    Since most mmorpg players consider gear progress important part of a game, and skill effects in education tree in Albion also nerfed same way, a lot of players will loose interest to the game soon, I araid.

    Removing Cluster Reduction nerf, and changing red zones to no gear drop (only bag content should drop) will make Albion, I think, much more interesting game to bigger part of gamers.
  • @monsterSK
    I agree with everything you said, but your point of view at Albion is too shallow.
    It's sandbox, so I should be able to do whatever I want. Even if I want to use T8 in blue zone.
    I could, but it wouldn't be worth - that's why whoever came with the idea that Albion is Sandbox is an idiot. I just hope that the guy will get smarter and still wants to make the game real sandbox.
  • If anything needs to be changed then the soft cap shoukd be turned intk a hard cap at T5 in yellow zones. These zones are the tutorial and are here for practice. Now because of all the theme park idiots who spend millions on gear they cannot afford to lose, practicing in yellow zones requires you to do the same if you want to practice on even grounds. The soft cap is just not enough.

    I do not want to waste all my silver on expensive gear that I will never use out of the noobzone area, I'd rather keep my silver to replace decent gear I will actually use in BZ.
  • Dixi wrote:

    This Cluster reduction turns expensive gear like T6.1 in such crap, that in Hellgate you have no chances vs two players in T3 gear... It just makes my repair bill much more. :(
    In pure PvE dungeons (T4 Undead Graveyard) melee char still can't kill solo one stronger skeleton! Where is the progress in game? What for I'm grinding silver?
    T4 dungeons are not made for solo, it clearly says 3-5 players so a solo melee should not be able to kill a single skeleton.
  • So i know this is a pretty old thread, but i figured id ask here first. I have a t4 bloodletter. I am in a t4 blue zone. My weapon, with 800 damage. However, its getting decreased down to 736 right now and says "+80 enchantment, -144 cluster reduction.. Can anyone explain this to me? I read this thread a bit but you all are talking t5 and t6 in lower yellow zones. Should this be happening to me and can i fix it? And will it apply in other zones? Thanks.
  • Hey teejay,

    the calculation for blue zones (except cities) is fairly simple:
    Everything above 700 IP gets reduced by 80%

    So you have a 4.1 Bloodletter with normal quality:

    Base IP: 800
    Enchantment: +80

    That would be a total of 880.
    Now we reduce the 180 IP above the softcap by 80%:

    Cluster reduction: -144 (the 80% reduction)