Foretelling the destiny of Albion Online

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    • Foretelling the destiny of Albion Online

      Oi,

      I make this post after spending 20 years playing MMOs and seeing the same thing happen over and over again. I've played UO, WoW, AoC, DaoC, Warhammer Online, AA and SW:tor and some of them at the very hardcore level. So I know what I'm talking about.

      After the recent rampant whining of carebears about getting killed, SI has implemented a new series of features to protect them from some sorts of PvP and namely not being able to attack after dismounting, seems like the most cancer change in this game which shows us the true intentions of this company. Even to me, it is surprising that the company changed its tracks so fast, it is kinda hard to believe.

      In all the experiences I've been through, this process took a little bit longer. In UO, it took actually a long time, until trammel, which made the game last long. WoW brought instanced BGs and reduced world pvp and implemented one-button dungeon entry(aka group finder) after a few months.

      What I want to say in short is, after seeing the intention of the developing team and their sensitivity with regular bad player blaming the game for his faults - and demanding their silver platter, I can foresee the future of this game already.

      Casual players will always win, in the setting with a company that seeks easy and short-term profits. In every game they won by simply flooding the forums with endless tears, and they willl win in this one too. They can't be stopped, they cant't be converted. They are legion, they are everywhere, undisputed vermin, scourge of the earth (this is where you are supposed to smile and take it as a joke Bruno)

      So from an experienced nerd playing MMOs for quite a long time, here is the events that is going to happen, chronologically


      - Carebears will spend all the time in the world you spend playing the game and learning, crying in the forums about being killed, game being hard, having too much to grind etc. There is no limits to this, they will always be demanding more safety and protection and will never, ever be satisfied with it. Even today in WoW, the most carebear friendly themepark MMO possible, there are people whining how they got killed by a ganker in open world.
      - SI will be going after a few more bucks that they can milk off the cows and will cater to these constant demands. No matter how much protection and support they get, bad players with no game sense will keep losing, or getting killed, and will continue demanding more and more. Hardcore, dedicated, disciplined, planning players with the intention of improving themselves will always find a way to win the fights. I know this because I've seen it. I've seen good and organized teams winning against 50x the odds. So, even if SI gives carebears some sort of endless invulnerability, top-level players will find a way to win, or bad players will find a way to lose. This is also inevitable. I've seen good guilds raiding Ironforge or Orgrimmar in WoW, even after Blizzard made cities guarded by one-hitting half-god beast city guards.
      - This will keep on going and going up to the point that good guilds and pvp teams will get bored and think it's not worth their time to play the game. They will stop playing or quit all together, and probably by that time (apparently very shortly for this game) there will be another game in the market that is advertising itself as a very hardcore game and all the large guilds will go to that one.
      - After all large and competitive guilds leave, the game will be a boring garbage fest, there will be nothing to do, everything will be cheap, economy will be dead and our bads will be able to roam in any zone without seeing anyone on their tails. They will be happy to get their hands to high level items just to find out that its going for 5 silvers in the market because everyone else can also farm them.
      - The game will be dead and dull, empty and void.
      - Casuals will look up to where all the large guilds went, and follow them to that game.
      - They will get owned in that game, too, and will start whining on the next game's forums.

      This is an endless, vicious cycle. There is nothing else to stop this inevitable process, except for the resillience and spirit of the developing company. If they are passionate about their game to be whatever they want to be and can just get their heads of the tear river that is flooding, they could make it work. Yet it is hard to see by this far.
      All the 4 years of testing was very promising, the developers seemed to be reasonable, strong and decisive people. Everyone loved this game for all the hard and merciless nature of this game. People loved what they saw, and paid 100 bucks in advance without hesitation. They spent hundreds of days testing the game for free. They gave you feedback because you made them a promise for a hardcore game with an intrinsic dangerous environment.

      Don't want to make this post any longer, I hope you got my points. You have taken a very bad direction with the dismount change and many others that you just made alive. I personally will keep having fun a few more weeks, or months, until the things above will get to the point that I will leave with all the others.

      Sign-
      a random black zone gatherer who is being chased by gankers the whole time and still very happy about it
    • I agree with the OP about worries on what might occur in the future even as a newbie red zone gatherer. Love it or hate it EvE has been around so long because they refuse to change the hardcore nature of the game. I dislike the encouragement of certain shadier parts of that community, but enjoy the idea of the overall structure of the game. There are a wealth of options for both sides of the cat and mouse game implemented in EvE over years of wanting to provide tools to the player base without chipping away at its hardcore nature.

      I do not play EvE personally, but was drawn to this game due to the hardcore nature, the grind, and the idea that with dedication you could catch up somewhat if you came in a bit later. I am worried that changes like this could change the underlying nature of what attracted me to this game. We might end up being wrong, or at least I hope we are about what changes like this mean for Albion's future. We will have to wait and see.

      TLDR: There is room in the MMO landscape for a hardcore, non-theme park game. Here's hoping Albion stays one of them.
      Purity through fire. Flames for a price.
    • @OP: great post!

      I think it's the ugly truth of game development: you get lot of attention advertising a "hardcore pvp" game, but you'll earn money when catering to the carebears (I am one myself).

      Because let's face it: there is only a very tiny percentage of players good (= personal skill) and dedicated (= play time) enough to be competitive. This tiny minority is very vocal, so it may seem larger then it really is.

      But most of the player base isn't that good. People with less skill will become QWE-drones in the big zerg, and people with less time will want some accessible solo play. And then there are the players, who are not interested in pvp at all (maybe because they are lacking both, like I do), but want to explore the game world or build stuff.

      An excellent game will offer a place for everyone, a good game for some ... and a bad game will follow the cycle described in the first post.

      Dear SI, please make the right decisions!
      For the next tier I have to grind whaaat?!
    • All of this butt hurt over a 3s dismount debuff... git guud.

      BZ campers are just as much carebears as the ones they claim to be carebears.

      I have literally seen the argument reduced to this: "I'm entitled to my BZ territory, non ally members are ruining my safe farm with their OP mounts... *entitlement entitlement*"

      It works both ways: the people crying about the 3s dismount debuff literally want to bar all non ally players from "their" zones... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE UPPER HAND BY SHEER NUMBERS...

      Stop being little bitches and man up. You're mocking the carebears while you're acting just like them. Pathetic hypocrites.
    • :rolleyes:

      I like to call this segment of the player base "hardcore crybabies". That's the group which is always demanding more easy kills, instead of attacking people who can fight back. I can understand this attitude, but why do this players expect me to commit to a fight, I know I will loose? They are avoiding this situation themselfs ...
      For the next tier I have to grind whaaat?!
    • Still don't get the financial logic of this?

      Any company regardless of the sector caters to the most people, because guess what, that gives you the most revenue.

      Every hardcore PvPer wants to have the PvP they way they want it, but ultimately its self destructing prophecy. For every change that makes it easier for you to gank you are ultimately taking away someone elses hard earned work, its not fun for them. The more and more people who have less fun, the more and more leave.

      The hardcore full loot PvPers complain as there is no one to gank anymore because the people who don't gank have left or just can't be assed to go anywhere where they could get ganked.

      So the developer makes a change to combat the problem, and the hardcore PvPers go up in arms about how it makes it not fun to play and so they are going to leave....

      I think you get the cycle point I am trying to make

      Someone somewhere is going to miss out, and when you are hedging your bets financially you bet on the majority of consumers, not on the minority, because the majority will pay your bills and feed your children.

      If you look at hardcore full loot MMO's like Darkfall, they are dead, like ghost towns because full loot hardcore PvP is a NICHE market, always has been always will be.

      Even in Eve, only a fraction of the population plays in 0.0 space, I have witnessed solo ganking streamers roam for hours and hours never to find someone to actually kill. You may see 20-30k concurrent but so many people play alts, its impossible to get a true understanding of the amount of human players, it could only be 5000 people

      How do you balance something like this without one side screaming the end of the game, or the other one screaming the same?

      No one wins in a hardcore full loot PvP MMO, its just a constant stream of complaining from one side or the other, I don't envy Sandbox for entering this volatile market

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von Ryukenwulf ()

    • Valdr schrieb:

      WoW? Lol, 90% of world PvP in that game was higher levels going to lowbie zones to gank. Picking off weaker targets that can't put up much of a fight barely puts you one step above the carebears.
      Not really, that's because you were in the wrong place. We used to camp blackrock mountain raid entrances with my guild (a top guild in world rankings back then) and we could fend off 10x more in numbers than we are. We were there during Ahn Qiraj opening and we wiped 300+ alliances with 40 horde. I used to camp WSG entrance in ashenvale and we were all level 60s. These were the good memories until bads flooded the forums 'OMG NIHILUM TOO STRONK PLZ NERF THEM'. You wouldn't believe how many forum threads it took for them to get what they want, and in the end they did. They will in this game too.

      However, this game doesn't have the technical quality, PvE content and lore which WoW has. It is merely a PvP game.

      Ravalo schrieb:

      I like to call this segment of the player base "hardcore crybabies". That's the group which is always demanding more easy kills, instead of attacking people who can fight back. I can understand this attitude, but why do this players expect me to commit to a fight, I know I will loose? They are avoiding this situation themselfs ...
      I dare you bring the best gear you can and fight any of the good guilds in a GvG. That is completely balanced, fair and with the same numbers.
      Or you better not throw your butthurt garbage around, it is not pleasant to see.


      mewsuaykat schrieb:

      All of this butt hurt over a 3s dismount debuff... git guud.

      BZ campers are just as much carebears as the ones they claim to be carebears.

      I have literally seen the argument reduced to this: "I'm entitled to my BZ territory, non ally members are ruining my safe farm with their OP mounts... *entitlement entitlement*"

      It works both ways: the people crying about the 3s dismount debuff literally want to bar all non ally players from "their" zones... YOU ALREADY HAVE THE UPPER HAND BY SHEER NUMBERS...

      Stop being little bitches and man up. You're mocking the carebears while you're acting just like them. Pathetic hypocrites.
      Instead of volleying insults who are better than yourself in everything, you should try to get those territories yourself. Bring your whole family to a GvG fight and we shall see how you face the dirt in less than 3 seconds.
      Those who have territories deserved to win them because they won many, many GvG fights you couldn't even dream of. You are also free to try that, stop hiding in your basement and get a territory if you dare.
    • Ryukenwulf schrieb:

      Still don't get the financial logic of this?
      Financial logic:

      There are many games with immensely good graphical and technical quality in the market, like Activision Blizzards'. They can buy indie studios like SI with their pocket money, they can produce incredible quality videos, cinematics and whatnot.
      You can't compete with them if you are targeting the same type of players. There is no reason why any player who wants to do only PvE or wants to play solo in full security would pay to play this game instead of WoW.

      So instead of targeting for this impossible audience, there are smaller studios like SI which make a hardcore niche MMOs and target those who want a different experience. We are those people. We supported this game for 4 years and bought founder packs because they came up with this vision, to bring a different product into the market.
      If they take this aspect from the game, there is absolutely no reason to play albion online. They also both cost the same amount of monthly subscription (premium is arguably sort of this)
    • @biSG "Instead of volleying insults who are better than yourself in everything, you should try to get those territories yourself. Bring your whole family to a GvG fight and we shall see how you face the dirt in less than 3 seconds.
      Those who have territories deserved to win them because they won many, many GvG fights you couldn't even dream of. You are also free to try that, stop hiding in your basement and get a territory if you dare."

      Wow someones feels got hurt I see: poor baby...

      I do congratulate you on responding like a true hypocrite though. (Try your own advice next time :) )

      Sheer numbers do not equate to skill: and that's why big guilds own territories. It's literally numbers vs skill... how you're too retarded to understand that is pretty baffling. But hey, some people have bad genetics, that's life.
    • I find this kind of discussion funny, since it goes on from the times of UO. There is simple fact that while the PKs love to hunt the gatherers and unprepared targets, its not like the reason those people play is to provide PKs entertainment. So no, adding Trammel didnt kill UO. In fact, UO still isnt dead and is in far better shape than Albion content and depth wise due to private servers, thus people being able to develop and pick whatever environment they like.

      There is absolutely need for open world PvP, PKing, small team skirmishes, mass pvp and ZvZ. However everything should be an option and type of gameplay player can preffer, not an ultimate solo focus as it kills everything else.

      Unbound PKing kills casual players possibility to enjoy the game, zergs and alliances destroy small PK guilds and solo PKers, compulsory aglomeration of guilds into zerg alliances destroys gameplay as whole and in fact will be the main reason with first hurdle Albion will experiences, when people realize theres no point in such piramidal schemes and burn out after weeks/months, as primarily they play for their OWN enjoyment and current trend hinders that, forcing them and restricting their freedom.

      OPs obviously crying about solo PKing, not mentioning that its very minor fraction of players and pvpers actually. Far more fights happen in dungeons for example, with more people involved and enjoying it than 1 person chasing 1 miner. More over, PKing in Albion has little to do with skill and very much to build and opportunity.

      You absolutely, 100% should be able to attack, kill and loot targets if you wish too. However no one ever said it should be easy, risk free and have no negative repercussions.

      If anything, the unrestricted pvp in black zones is negative as it kills immersion. I`d rather have stuff added like UO`s Buccaneers Den for PKs, red karma progression and own opportunities and benefits, red titles etc. - motivating people who chose this path. As well guild diplomacy and waging wars.

      Everything, and i mean EVERYTHING needs balance towards everything else. I for one, dont give a damn about solo PK (good luck pking as arcanist or healer), but care more about guild pvp, and biggest concern see in the zerg alliances (though it`ll solve itself with time). No player type is "more important" to the game than the other - solo pks, elite 5man hellgate and gvg teams, roaming dungeon and world pvp groups, guilds fighting large scale battles, massive organizations controllign territories and resources. And of course - the casual players, gatherers, people playing the game for fun or even solo progression. EVERYONE is important, the game will fail not only if "pks quit", but if any of the listed fail to be ineteresting/viable long term.

      And going back to pvp talk - playing all of them since UO times and experiencing all of them failing again and again, the thing i want is not "hardcore pvp game" which is dime a dozen. Even fool loot has zero appeal once you understand how economy works and that most of it not worth it, its just a minor enjoyment factor since UO times. What i want is game that will last for many YEARS. And for this, much more than satisfying the specific group interests three things are needed:

      - energetic playerbase. The main issue with all hardcore pvp games. Eventually they all dwindle and die, since fail to attract people outside of specific niche, and those people get bored fast with no people to kill and move on to other games. Thus its vital to attract more players long term and offer all kinds of gameplay, while incorporating all type of players in overwall Albion world scheme.

      - healthy economy. Pretty much the main concern for game like Albion. Thankfully, at least botting issue is somewhat handled here unlike other titles, but still will be a lot of challenges as time progresses.

      - DEPTH. Albion, to its core, is very simplistic game and in my opinion main appeal of it is loads of potential for future development and expansion. The game will not last for year just focusing on constant competition and war - it needs more immersion and appeal for players to continue logging in it after 5 years after today and not just for reason to grind some material or have a pvp battle. Theres million ways for it to improve in future, and i just hope it`ll evolve from very simplistic and straightforward "grind and kill" game, to proper virtual world.

      People complain about it`ll become "another Runescape". Well, i`d rather it be another Runescape than another Darkfall - dead game i loved. My other favorite hardcore pvp Game, Neocron, litterally barely gets 50 players online atm and the only reason it still does is not pvp even, but immersion and interesting world - which Albion atm lacks.

      As far "hardcore" goes - pvp still exists and would exist, full loot going nowhere away. I play the game in leisurly pace with no rush and aim for long term future. If you love pvp, just do pvp. Stop complaining about it. Even if Sandboxing succumbs and adds Trammel version for Albion, it`ll not change a thing for you - since if people dont want to be risk killed by PKs, they wont risk or wont play the game at all. If anything, the way to enable more PvP is to make it more affordable. The sooner players realize their death mean little and can afford the gear to take part in pvp and reengage - the better it would be for all. It is akin to, for a pvp game: better have instant respawn of players able to reengage in combat fast, rather than put harsh penalties on death and 15min debuff or something. Because if you want Fights, you want former. Later only applies is you are interested not in fights themselves, but advantages victory brings you. I`d rather see "risk free" pvp where everyone is ready to engage to pvp and doesnt run from it, rather than "harsh world" pvp where economy and numbers dominate it creating advantages where for majority its not even worth risking engaging in pvp.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von PreacherFU ()

    • Preacher,

      You didn't get my point. I am absolutely certain and made it clear that we WILL find a way to do pvp and we will be killing people, mounted or dismounted, in dungeons or wherever they might be. Even if SI makes black zones completely safe, we will camp red zones, we will split groups near each zone entrance to dismount people, we will hide inside the dungeons where people won't see us coming.
      No matter how hard it is, we will succeed. There is no doubt with that. Hardcore people will always find a way to show their difference from the average joe.

      In the same regard, the average joe will keep on demanding more and more security. He also will never stop. It is a process going to infinity. No matter how much help and tools he has, he will find a way to get ganked and die, and will keep complaining.

      And at this point, another game will come up and take all the hardcore players. Average joe will be bored because there will be nothing to do.
      This has repeatedly been experienced. UO was just one of the examples, and yes I agree trammel was not the only reason. Other MMOs like Everquest and WoW was much better in many ways and UO players left it for them. That is what I have been telling.
    • PreacherFU schrieb:

      I find this kind of discussion funny, since it goes on from the times of UO. There is simple fact that while the PKs love to hunt the gatherers and unprepared targets, its not like the reason those people play is to provide PKs entertainment.
      But in this type of game a well balanced PK experience should provide the gatherer entertainment as well. Going into a full loot zone, you know that you will be hunted, you shouldn't be caught 'unprepared' and expect to live every time. I've reached being able to gather T5 in every resource and am glad that it opens up the chance for me to make some decent silver if I venture into a red zone and sell off my raw mats until I get my other skills caught up to use them myself.

      If things are too safe in the red, more people will flock to it, less mats will be lost on death, more full loads will make it to market and prices will plummet.

      I'll take an ox sometimes because of the CC resist and most solo players giving up after they can't stun you to take you out or being able to reach yellow if they persist (NOTE: do not do this in black or if you are more than one zone from yellow). If even a small group works together, they can dismount and kill me easily. That is with the balance as it was. Now there is no real risk to take an ox. I can load that sucker up unless a group of pkers works in concert to knock me off.

      Less risk means less entertainment for me. Low enough risk and I don't even have to think whether or not taking the ox is feasible. Easier gathering means falling prices and with all my LP going to it this far means a serious hit to my earning potential as a player.
      Purity through fire. Flames for a price.