Ganking Feedback Thread [serious]

  • Eltharyon wrote:

    Here's a quick FAQ which should answer most of the reasoning behind the change and whats next:

    Have we destroyed PvP?
    No, the numbers show that.

    Player Kills Player
    Tuesday July 25th: 21,697
    Monday July 31st: 27,661
    Tuesday August 1st: 22,796 (+5% compared to previous week, -18% compared to previous day)

    So yes, these changes have had an impact. And we're looking very closely at them. But we still have plenty of players dieing to other players.
    Have you gone into the black zones and observed how player activity has changed? I saw many people yesterday just running around naked trying to bait people into attacking them. Those are going to show up as player kills in your statistics, but they are effectively not any form of pvp but just bored people who are on the verge of quitting.

    The danger with looking at statistics like this is the people who were being habitually ganked while gathering are still going to be ganked while gathering regardless of what you do short of making a fully safe area for them to gather in. They are getting ganked because of bad decision making on their part. All a change does is shift what constitutes a bad decision.

    Please look at how this change has effected small group conflict in the black zones. Engagements where each side only has 2-5 players.

    Do not make the mistake of looking at statistics with out context so many developers do. Just looking at a target number of kills per capita or something can result in a very wide range of ways those kills are actually being generated. From a pure statistical standpoint a single massive zerg camping a zone and killing every single person that enters it would be equal to many dynamic skirmishes between different groups in that zone. Those would clearly not be the same thing from a players perspective at all, regardless of equal number of kills generated.

    The dismount change can work, but its caused problems for small scale open world roaming that will need to be addressed.
  • Almost everyone defending these changes has a join date of summer 17. That's not a knock on new players, you are just as important, the problem is you havn't seen the cycle of changes over the past 3 years where PvP has been removed and discouraged. For each beta having an exponential amount of more players, my time spent PvPing has decreased with each update. Instead I spend more time doing boring activities. The problem is they introduce more of a gear grind (artifacts), remove all penalties by expanding the playability in safe-zones only and removing mob execution, and then impliment a series of nerfs to discourage non-consensual PvP. What they are doing is pushing the PvP playerbase further and further into a corner to accomodate the non-PvP playerbase, under the guise "more sheep more wolves blah blah blah". Not ONCE have they backed off any of their changes to discourage PvP. And the problem the vets have and the reason we are so vocal....is we played the game in a state where it was ruthless and contained forced engagement and revolved completely around PvP and loss......we just want back what they promised the game to be when we started.

    And rejoice all you want about the changes for the removal of more and more PvP, but the truth is, this shallow game will not hold anyone's interest very long outside of harsh full loot PvP. You guys are still in the honeymoon phase. You have not hit the t6 wall of boredom that happens beta after beta after reset after reset that SI tries to blame on impending resets. The game will crash hard in another month.

    And please stop with the defense that PvP is not ganking defenseless gatherers or zerging or outnumbering etc....that's what the game was advertised as....that's what I want to play. I do not want a boring 5v5 battleground that is done 1000x better in any moba or hell even WoW or sPvP GW2.....I want a dynamic open world PvP environment that is NOT FAIR and CHANGES and you have to REACT to.......that's what open world PvP is about, not who can mash these 6 buttons in a better order. I don't want an arbitrary number of mechanics dictating my pvp experience (can't attack for this long, cant do this after dismounting, cant do this around this zone and bubble bleh bleh bleh)
    MyCatsInMyLap

    The post was edited 1 time, last by tiglie ().

  • i was in the blackzones. pvp is fine. blackzone dungeons and t6/t7 areas are contested af. blobs/8man groups run amock. You guys just like to bitch about how albion was great when you could gank people and how hardcore it was. Learn to adapt. If you cant adapt to this then feel free to move on. Bashing the devs when they clearly show you evidence as well as communicating with you just makes you look stupid and immature. And most of all there is a difference between hardcore and wannabe tryhard hardcore people. :)
    a fair fight for me is when people are more than us. Then they actually have a chance to stay alive.
  • Ragonrok wrote:

    JonahVeil wrote:

    Kaiga wrote:

    Sorry, Posted the wrong video. You were saying?
    The issue here is that, MOST OF THE PEOPLE ENGAGED HIM BACK.That is consensual PvP.

    Did he catch a couple gatherers who walked into dead ends? Yes.

    But, in order to drop a mount, he has to blow ALL cds. If they have flee/wanderlust, you're not killing them.
    Adapt or die. You will not get free handouts. Gallop feature was a big bonus to PvP'ers, it was never like that in all the other betas, you have been spoiled filthy and now it is time for you to shut your whining up, adapt, get good, and learn some strategy.
    The strategy of bring more people?

    We murdered tons of gatherers last night, with 10 people.

    It wasn't profitable. We just did it cause we were bored.

    All this patch did was promote larger groups. Adapt = bring more people. It's not rocket science.

    I was in here from first alpha, please don't act like I'm some newbie who hasn't seen every iteration of this game.
    BoM, In our hearts and minds.
    Twitch
    Youtube

    The post was edited 1 time, last by JonahVeil ().

  • Stratta wrote:

    Eltharyon wrote:



    No single player should be able to force a fight against another mounted player with even gear if both play perfectly.

    this is the main problem why our developers are seeing it wrong: open world is not a duel arena! if you go in it you accept the consequences from the 1st second! you can not try to have permissions from both sides when a contact happens between them.

    @Eltharyon
  • Belan wrote:

    Eltharyon wrote:

    Here's a quick FAQ which should answer most of the reasoning behind the change and whats next:

    Have we destroyed PvP?
    No, the numbers show that.

    Player Kills Player
    Tuesday July 25th: 21,697
    Monday July 31st: 27,661
    Tuesday August 1st: 22,796 (+5% compared to previous week, -18% compared to previous day)

    So yes, these changes have had an impact. And we're looking very closely at them. But we still have plenty of players dieing to other players.

    Have they destroyed solo PvP/Ganking?
    Its hard to get actual numbers on this, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that its still possible: Solo PvP After Dismount Change

    Of course this often relies on a mistake on the side of the victim, but we've always said this should be the case: No single player should be able to force a fight against another mounted player with even gear if both play perfectly. Theres still plenty of room for error as those videos show.

    Have they made ganking solo players harder?
    Yes, absolutely. We firmly believe this has to be the case, however, to maintain the PvE/PvP ecosystem. If killing unwilling targets becomes easier than gathering the resources for the gear those unwilling victims wear, then PvE becomes an unattractive activity. If PvE is unattractive, you will soon run out of victims and solo ganking will truly be dead.

    Why did we do it?
    Because we believe the previous balance was broken*. And we should already have fixed it in beta. We didn't see it in beta, because of the lower player numbers, but it became very evident with the large player numbers after launch.

    *What we consider broken is the ability of ganking/gatecamping groups to catch any player they want as long as they have at least one faster mount in your group, by riding up to them and breaking their gallop. In particular the gatecamping situation was quickly escalating as camping groups were acquiring faster mounts and we wanted to put a stop to it before it got completely out of hand.

    Is this final?
    No. We're now looking at the impact of the change and we're now looking in more depth at the balance for ganking players. In particular we're interested to find and fix what else is broken.

    We're currently looking at the mount speed progression, which makes players on higher tier mounts almost ungankable. We're testing whether it would be feasible to put most of the mount speed into the gallop mode to make all tiers of mounts similarly easy to engage while dismounted.

    We're also playtesting reducing the skill cooldown after dismounting to allow for more skill based engagements after dismounting.

    Do we still think we were right?
    Yes. As developers we need the ability to change and improve the game. We cannot be intimidated by the perception of the changes we're making. And we also cannot wait for all changes to be perfect before launching them- because changes like these cannot be playtested on a small scale. We need to keep moving. Everything else would lead to a standstill. And why would you want a standstill when we've just started? Of course we're going to change the game, and of course you're not always going to be on the side that benefits from those changes. That is the nature of making an MMO: you have a massive amount of players playing together, and our concern has to be the well being of the entire community.
    @Eltharyon
    Why aren't you testing a change this big? Isn't that why you have test servers? Simply rolling out something this big that impacts builds and entire play styles with no notice or testing is both inconsiderate to players and silly from a developer standpoint.
    Its great that you base all this on current situation of the game. Where most newbies are still running with T3-T4 mounts. But do enlighten me how is it even possible to kill a T8 armored mount gatherer now? It was already next to impossible before patch unless you had 50+ locking down every neightbouring map.

    You do know that when you manage to dismount a high level gatherer, he has dashes on weapon, lower cd modifier on offhand, he has invis, flee and remount before you can do anything. Then you chase him down all over again. But do tell us plebs how to catch those, as even with a shit mount I run with, no one has managed to gank my gatherer during release. And on beta3 0 successful ganks on my gatherer after i started using a T7+ armored mount.

    And btw, your overall statistics don't show how many of those kills are based on ZvZ, GvG and all that. Your numbers don't show statistics on clear chaser vs chased situation. So how can you use that for any real referance? Theres variation on daily amount of kills as well as in everything. If you compare a castle fight day to thuesday, you will see quite a bit of dif.
    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Officer of Nilfgaard (Haamu's party)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Nervontuxis ().

  • @Bercilak got ganked in the black zone and raged. Then he decided to ruin the game for gankers and keep the 30$ rookies around for another 15 days till they buy more premium. Most of the decent gankers are old timers anyways, and they have already made enough gold to buy premium for years on all their characters, so if there is no money to get from them, why cater to them?

    Fucking sellout

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kreedee ().

  • Eltharyon wrote:

    Have we destroyed PvP?
    No, the numbers show that.

    Player Kills Player
    Tuesday July 25th: 21,697
    Monday July 31st: 27,661
    Tuesday August 1st: 22,796 (+5% compared to previous week, -18% compared to previous day)
    No disrespect, but either you're trying to pull one over on the community or you just didn't think through these statistics before you threw the out there.

    Let's see what else changed between the day of the update and the day before:

    1. Castle spawns twice a days
    2. Larger influx of people going to red/black zones because they feel safer (who mostly panic as soon as they see someone. Hence the recent ganking vids preaching it still works easy)
    Both of these make your statistics pointless in regards to if you broke small scale gank groups or not, however based off your post you seem to not care because "if someone doesn't want to fight they shouldn't have to!"

    EDIT:

    There's been TONS of great suggestions the last few weeks by both gatherers and PvPers alike on how to balance the two roles better. But instead you do a quick bandaid fix because you are too scared to lose the carebear percentage of the population.

    Hell last night this was even affecting ZvZ fights because you can run from everyone now even using DK Bongos as a mouse

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Fuzzah ().

  • Kreedee wrote:

    @Bercilak got ganked in the black zone and raged. Then he decided to ruin the game for gankers and keep the 30$ rookies around for another 15 days till they buy more premium. Most of the decent gankers are old timers anyways, and they have already made enough gold to buy premium for years on all their characters, so if there is no money to get from them, why cater to them?

    Fucking sellout
    spotted the immature kid .
    a fair fight for me is when people are more than us. Then they actually have a chance to stay alive.
  • Kappatronic wrote:

    Kreedee wrote:

    @Bercilak got ganked in the black zone and raged. Then he decided to ruin the game for gankers and keep the 30$ rookies around for another 15 days till they buy more premium. Most of the decent gankers are old timers anyways, and they have already made enough gold to buy premium for years on all their characters, so if there is no money to get from them, why cater to them?

    Fucking sellout
    spotted the immature kid .
    Mhm

    My play style has been nerfed 30 times in this game. I thnik it's time to stop.
  • Archeage 2.0.

    Dropping a bomb like this 2 weeks after release is a death sentence. Once again, Another decent PvP-Centric MMORPG detroys their game to cater to an audience that shouldn't even be here in the first place. The game is advertised as ruthless, no holds bar pvp. Want to make the game safe? Sure. Do it in yellow/red. Want to advance? Come with the big boys in the blackzone or fucking quit.
  • @tiglie said: "What they are doing is pushing the PvP playerbase further and further into a corner to accomodate the non-PvP playerbase, under the guise "more sheep more wolves blah blah blah". Not ONCE have they backed off any of their changes to discourage PvP. And the problem the vets have and the reason we are so vocal....is we played the game in a state where it was ruthless and contained forced engagement and revolved completely around PvP and loss......we just want back what they promised the game to be when we started."

    There is one "player base", many play types.

    Let's put the shoe on the Non-PvP focused foot: will there be a player base still after the game stagnates because only certain people (vets and newcomers) hold a monopoly on the economy via sheer force of numbers and game mechanics solely favoring PvP?

    So you (vets) want a PvP only game? Devs should just overly favor PvP and drive out any customers which desire to support other vital aspects of the game? Basically you want a bigger LoL. Because that's what all this bitching and moaning amounts to. Which is sad, especially after the devs (who created this game... Who OWN the intellectual rights to this game...) already stated that there's a bigger picture that the roids ragers who cry about a 3s mechanic obviously don't care about.

    About the "veteran" thing: In every MMO I've seen this (vet) mentality, and I'll call it what I've called it since UO... It's "bullshit". If you weren't smart enough to see and realize it for what it is ( a marketing scheme) then all I can say for you is: Sorry. Pretty much every MMO uses the #veteran gimmick for profitable game testing incentive. They make money off of your prideful self indulgence in ego. That's business.

    Every person who contributes is a contributer. Just because I join on day 1 doesn't make me any less important in the games environment. Why do I mention that? Because it means a new player isn't necessarily tunnel visioned with fan boyism, they can take a objective stand apart from the crowd and see the whole picture. So beginners are just as relevant as "vets". (Fresh Eyes)

    Take away: The game needs a balance which allows fair footing for all play types. Being an angry "Vet" doesn't change this fact. If the balance doesn't happen, this game effectively becomes a PvP only schlong measuring contest between a stagnant pool of guilds doing only one thing: LoL'ing each other until they get bored and leave the game due to boredom.
  • Kappatronic wrote:

    Erika wrote:

    Kappatronic wrote:

    blobs/8man groups run amock.
    And accomplish nothing but drive by name calling
    they do accomplish. Its called pve fame aka progress in the destiny board . Guess you havent been in the higher tier areas of the blackzone much have you?
    So you have just confirmed that in your opinion the purpose of the black zone is to safely farm pve fame.

    You should start a petition to just disable pvp then. Maybe if they stopped having to worry about pvp balance they could add lots of interesting pve content
  • The problem is NOT that it is easy to gank. The problem is that way too many players have just about 0 game knowledge or skill, so obviously they are easy targets. Just the fact that they can even consider making PvP changes based off people that have no idea how to play the game, makes me not even want to log in anymore. I am so dissapointed in SBI.
  • Erika wrote:

    Kappatronic wrote:

    Erika wrote:

    Kappatronic wrote:

    blobs/8man groups run amock.
    And accomplish nothing but drive by name calling
    they do accomplish. Its called pve fame aka progress in the destiny board . Guess you havent been in the higher tier areas of the blackzone much have you?
    So you have just confirmed that in your opinion the purpose of the black zone is to safely farm pve fame.
    You should start a petition to just disable pvp then. Maybe if they stopped having to worry about pvp balance they could add lots of interesting pve content
    did i say the purpose of black zone is to farm pve fame?are you retarded? i am just saying they are blobing there because most of the people in the blackzone are too afraid to fight against blobs and or run small groups to fame farm. Usually when you see a blob and you are in a small fame group you either run or call backup and zerg them. But since as i said you have no clue about blackzone t6/t7/t8 areas then there is no point in explaining. There is always the chance of people pvping there. I know i have pvped a lot there. And it still happens. On a daily basis. Blackzone dungeons are pvp zones with constant groups wiping each other.

    Please use your brain next time.
    a fair fight for me is when people are more than us. Then they actually have a chance to stay alive.
  • Kappatronic wrote:

    did i say the purpose of black zone is to farm pve fame?
    Yes, you did, when you clarified that your definition of 'running amok' was doing black zone dungeons far away from the portal zone. You used this stance as justification for everything in black zones being fine. Therefore according to you, the black zone experience is fine because it is now even safer than ever to take your blob to a dungeon and farm fame.
  • mewsuaykat wrote:

    @tiglie said: "What they are doing is pushing the PvP playerbase further and further into a corner to accomodate the non-PvP playerbase, under the guise "more sheep more wolves blah blah blah". Not ONCE have they backed off any of their changes to discourage PvP. And the problem the vets have and the reason we are so vocal....is we played the game in a state where it was ruthless and contained forced engagement and revolved completely around PvP and loss......we just want back what they promised the game to be when we started."

    There is one "player base", many play types.

    Let's put the shoe on the Non-PvP focused foot: will there be a player base still after the game stagnates because only certain people (vets and newcomers) hold a monopoly on the economy via sheer force of numbers and game mechanics solely favoring PvP?

    So you (vets) want a PvP only game? Devs should just overly favor PvP and drive out any customers which desire to support other vital aspects of the game? Basically you want a bigger LoL. Because that's what all this bitching and moaning amounts to. Which is sad, especially after the devs (who created this game... Who OWN the intellectual rights to this game...) already stated that there's a bigger picture that the roids ragers who cry about a 3s mechanic obviously don't care about.

    About the "veteran" thing: In every MMO I've seen this (vet) mentality, and I'll call it what I've called it since UO... It's "bullshit". If you weren't smart enough to see and realize it for what it is ( a marketing scheme) then all I can say for you is: Sorry. Pretty much every MMO uses the #veteran gimmick for profitable game testing incentive. They make money off of your prideful self indulgence in ego. That's business.

    Every person who contributes is a contributer. Just because I join on day 1 doesn't make me any less important in the games environment. Why do I mention that? Because it means a new player isn't necessarily tunnel visioned with fan boyism, they can take a objective stand apart from the crowd and see the whole picture. So beginners are just as relevant as "vets". (Fresh Eyes)

    Take away: The game needs a balance which allows fair footing for all play types. Being an angry "Vet" doesn't change this fact. If the balance doesn't happen, this game effectively becomes a PvP only schlong measuring contest between a stagnant pool of guilds doing only one thing: LoL'ing each other until they get bored and leave the game due to boredom.
    Yes they should favor all changes to encourage PvP because that's what this game was advertised as. They openly said at the start of development they were tired of games being too easy and dumbing down content. They wanted a hardcore, old-school, full loot, open PvP game. What we have now is an ecomically (for the developers) driven, shitty mobile gathering simulator.
    MyCatsInMyLap
  • Erika wrote:

    Kappatronic wrote:

    did i say the purpose of black zone is to farm pve fame?
    Yes, you did, when you clarified that your definition of 'running amok' was doing black zone dungeons far away from the portal zone. You used this stance as justification for everything in black zones being fine. Therefore according to you, the black zone experience is fine because it is now even safer than ever to take your blob to a dungeon and farm fame.
    quoting only part of my post?lmao. read again you mongolian
    a fair fight for me is when people are more than us. Then they actually have a chance to stay alive.