Dagger Q Skills Cost Too Much

  • Dagger Q Skills Cost Too Much

    It looks like the energy costs for Dagger Weapons' Q skills are grossly overpriced in comparison to the over melee weapons.

    I grabbed the data for each melee weapon's Q skills at Tier 4 and Tier 8.

    Just looking at the costs, it is obvious that Daggers' costs are far larger than the other weapons'

    Looking at the minimum, maximum, and average for Tier 4 and Tier 8 ... keeping in mind that Daggers are the highest so are inflating the averages:
    • T4 Dagger's Sunder Armor costs 13 which is 260.00% of the minimum and 139.58% of the average at T4
    • T4 Daggers' Assassin's Spirit) costs 16 which is 320.00% of the minimum and 171.79% of the average at T4
    • T4 Daggers' Black Hands are the T4 max at 19 ... 5 more than the next highest non-dagger skill at 14 ... which is still 2 less than Assassin's Spirit and only 1 more than Sunder Armor.
    • T8 Dagger's Sunder Armor costs 19 which is 271.43% of the minimum and 145.69% of the average at T8
    • T8 Daggers' Assassin's Spirit) costs 23 which is 328.57% of the minimum and 176.37% of the average at T8
    • T8 Daggers' Black Hands are the T4 max at 27 ... 7 more than the next highest non-dagger skill at 20 ... which is still 3 less than Assassin's Spirit and only 1 more than Sunder Armor.


    If we remove the inflation from having the daggers in the calculations for the averages and from setting the maximums, then we have:
    • T4 Dagger's Sunder Armor costs 13 which is still 260.00% of the minimum but now 156.33% of the average and 92.86% of the maximum at T4
    • T4 Daggers' Assassin's Spirit) costs 16 which is still 320.00% of the minimum but now 192.41% of the average and 114.29% of the maximum at T4
    • T8 Dagger's Sunder Armor costs 19 which is still 271.43% of the minimum and 161.32% of the average and 95.00% of the maximum at T8
    • T8 Daggers' Assassin's Spirit) costs 23 which is still 328.57% of the minimum but now 195.28% of the average and 115.00% of the maximum at T8


    While standing naked, I took the damage values for each of the Q skills and got the data to calculate:
    • Direct Damage Per Cost
    • Total Damage Per Cost (Since Axe Q applies a DoT)
    • Direct Damage Per Cooldown
    • Total Damage Per Cooldown
    This paints an even worse picture for the daggers as far as their energy. Note: The averages ignore the skills that do no damage ... including Dagger's Assassin's Spirit.

    The numbers show that daggers damage per energy is horrible.
    • At T4: 13.42 direct damage per energy for daggers puts it at 58.89% of the average of 22.79
    • At T4: 13.42 total damage per energy for daggers puts it at 57.31% of the average of 23.41
    • At T8: 13.22 direct damage per energy for daggers puts it at 57.75% of the average of 22.89
    • At T8: 13.22 total damage per energy for daggers puts it at 56.21% of the average of 23.51


    -----[ Raw Data Below ]-----


    Numbers Including Daggers in Calculations


    T4 MinT4 AvgT4 Max
    59.31343283619


    T8 MinT8 AvgT8 Max
    713.0410958927


    Numbers Without Daggers in Calculations


    T4 MinT4 AvgT4 Max
    58.31578947414


    T8 MinT8 AvgT8 Max
    711.7777777820




    @T4:

    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)22.79
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.42
    Total Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)23.41
    Total Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.42
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)58.57
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)60.80
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)61.08
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)60.80


    @T8:
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)22.89
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.22
    Total Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)23.51
    Total Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.22
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)82.13
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)84.53
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)85.69
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)84.53

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Sebrent: Added Info for Damage Per Cost and Damage Per Cooldown that I calculated in a post later on. ().

  • The damages are quite similar between the various Qs.

    Spear's self buff, while not giving atk spd, gives 5% more dmg per stack and range instead ... and is drastically cheaper ... and on 1/3 of the cd ... not to mention the fact that Assassin's Spirit already pays for that extra attack speed by shredding the Dagger wielder's own armor. So why does it then pay with both a longer cooldown AND substantially larger cost?

    Yes, some shred armor, debuff healing, apply a DoT too, buff speed, debuff speed, etc. ... it doesn't explain why the Dagger's particular Q skills cost so much more than the other weapons'

    If you would like to comment on particulars where there are what you consider large enough differences to warrant the costs, feel free to do so, but a blank statement like yours doesn't help with the discussion at all. Frankly, it provides nothing to the discussion.
  • another good comparison would be to compare damage output to mana cost, such as swords Q's which also has a buff added to it. Other than that, you kindof have to take in account everything (range, CD, DMG/Mana cost, buff/debuff, DMG per min, everything and anything you can think of) or people are just going to dismiss your post...

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Slicker ().

  • Dagger oneshot problem in the past. Forum toxicity lead too a q energy cost nerf since until they fixed the problem all together.

    Additionaly Sunder armor on a q is a hefty damage multiplier for u aswell as group members.

    Armor is calculated as follows 1-(100/100+x)
    Where x is the armor from ur equipment.

    Lets look at a 75% reduction shall we?
    1-(100/100+200) and take ur t4 dagger pair and sunder armor (3stacked)

    1-(100/100+(200-3x13)=0,61832061 or rougly 38,2 of a 100% of damage that is going through.

    Now if we compare 25% too 38,2% than the difference is only 13,2 % of damage. Yet the damage values are calculated/balanced per tier and resistance. Thus a decrease of resistance in the high tiers results in a ~50% damage increase. (38.2-25)/25%
    Now combine this with the fact that sunder armor counts for ur entire team and there u go =)

    Greetz subs

    Edit: Typing mistake at the armor values (old 300, new 200 )

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Substanz_D ().

  • @Slicker
    I had thought that including all those extra numbers might cause cognitive overload, but I'll go ahead tonight (after work & kids in bed) and make one of my spreadsheet tabs public to share the info you're requesting. Thanks for the feedback.

    ----- -----

    @Substanz_D
    You make a good point there, but I have two issues with it being the reasoning for the energy costs on the dagger's Q skills.
    1. Why do we not then see Axe's Heavy Smash, Crossbow's Sunder Shot, or Cursed Staff's Armor Piercer have this same largely increased energy cost in comparison to other W skills?
      • These other skills (a) Reduce Resistances by more (b) two are ranged and (c) one hits multiple targets
      • The only advantage Sunder Armor has on these is being able to have a 100% up-time if you stick to the target ... and run yourself out of energy with the higher cost of your Q
    2. This still does not explain why Assassin's Spirit has the inflated cost as well since it does not reduce the target's resistances.
    Do you have any further thoughts on this?

    ----- -----

    Tojuji
    That isn't how burden of proof works. The person who states something, whether it is the initial argument or the counter argument, is the one that has the burden of proof to validate/prove that what they said is true.

    Otherwise I could counter anything you ever posted by saying "it doesn't matter. the game engine just throws out random numbers for damage", and then, according to you, you would have to prove that I'm wrong ... as opposed to me proving that I wasn't just making that up ... and best of luck with that unless you have access to server-side code ;)

    Now, again, if you want to point to specific things (see Substanz_D's post as an example) or simply are unconvinced without more info (see Slicker's post), then just state that. No need for the rest of it from you.
  • Sorry took me a while to get back too this threat. Now writing from a pc instead of a phone ^^.

    First let me say this, everything from here on now is a hypotheses, except for the fact that the energycost was "adjusted" too counter the oneshot dual dagger pair meta we had (as an additional drawback)


    Lets begin.

    1.

    Axes, Crossbows, nor Curse staffs where the target of forum activity in the recent past. If we pay close attention too the forum behavior one can forsee some buffs/nerf too weapons. Namely the ones that are scorned as "OP". Since there are no recent threats about the named weapons, there was never a reason for the devs too adjust and change the energy costs of these spells.

    Btw I do agree that armor shred abilities, even without a 100% uptime (such as the sunder q ) should have a drastically higher energy cost, as the benefit is not only limted too ur own damage, but too ur group damage aswell. Especially in the case of curse staff, although I hate too be a advocate of "nerf".

    This plus the fact that maybe the 100% uptime might be considered too broken by the devs (albeit with a smaller pierce value then other options)

    2.

    I guess the problem with Assassin's Sprint is the following:
    1. It allowed for a pre fight selfstack, wich lead into a dual dagger oneshot without much of counterplay, unlike a slow stacking up of sunder stacks. Although I would like to mention that with the old meditation, stacking sunder q's was done in less then 0.3 seconds, hence the change too meditation ^^ The only possible drawback they could add, was the potential selfarmor shredd, aswell as a very high energycost, too stop the mayhem of dual dagger users at some point.
    2. It is a really new abilitiy. The last major update patch brought us this beauty and it might, by all means this is very well possible, still be unbalanced when it comes too the energy cost of it.
    With the recent changes too the dagger pair, I can totally see a reduction of the energycost from assassin's sprint without a cry of the community .

    Greetz Subs.
  • There could be many ways to tackle this and i am sure getting people to agree on one with so close to release would be a difficult task.

    1. Would just be to slightly lower the cost since what subs said about dagger pair is no longer a issue and other weapons like the 1H dagger or claws will not suffer from this.
    2. raising the AA damage of the dagger line and putting a longer CD on sunder so it could not be applied 100% of the time... this would help with the loss of damage and would help save some mana use so it is not a constant spam of the Q button.
    3. Change the spell which would cause alot of grief i would assume.
    4. Leave it alone and try to find a way around mana loss.

    Now with assassin spirit, it is a interesting skill and running full speed build the output on a non-moving target is amazing... grant it is mainly PvE but after the full cycle mana does seem to fly. Also with the new patch to spears with them being able to have the Q up 100% of the time it will be interesting if assassin spirit users will complain since they have a decrease in armor while the spears does not (spear has increased range and damage while daggers get increased speed and damage... so why the debuff on one and not the other, also spears have 8 secs on stacks while daggers get 7 secs).

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Slicker ().

  • While standing naked, I took the damage values for each of the Q skills and got the data to calculate:
    • Direct Damage Per Cost
    • Total Damage Per Cost (Since Axe Q applies a DoT)
    • Direct Damage Per Cooldown
    • Total Damage Per Cooldown
    This paints an even worse picture for the daggers as far as their energy. Note: The averages ignore the skills that do no damage ... including Dagger's Assassin's Spirit.

    The numbers show that daggers damage per energy is horrible.
    • At T4: 13.42 direct damage per energy for daggers puts it at 58.89% of the average of 22.79
    • At T4: 13.42 total damage per energy for daggers puts it at 57.31% of the average of 23.41
    • At T8: 13.22 direct damage per energy for daggers puts it at 57.75% of the average of 22.89
    • At T8: 13.22 total damage per energy for daggers puts it at 56.21% of the average of 23.51


    Thankfully, the daggers, a pure DPS weapon in a melee world full of tanky / CC weapons is right there by the average for damage per cooldown ... so at least that isn't bad :-p

    I stand by my earlier statement ... it looks like daggers' Q skills are currently overpriced.


    @T4:

    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)22.79
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.42
    Total Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)23.41
    Total Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.42
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)58.57
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)60.80
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)61.08
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)60.80


    @T8:
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)22.89
    Average Direct Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.22
    Total Damage Per Cost (No Daggers)23.51
    Total Damage Per Cost (Daggers Only)13.22
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)82.13
    Average Direct Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)84.53
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (No Daggers)85.69
    Average Total Damage Per Cooldown (Daggers Only)84.53
  • hopefully we could get some kind words from a dev at this point since the overpowered/underpowered forum seems to have several post about the dagger line with no official response such as "everything is working as intended" or "looking at the numbers". That or a sticky on it saying "read by Dev" so we know it got some kind of attention. Getting closer to release so final builds are getting made in peoples minds... and i get that this one weapon line my not be a priority and there is much bigger things to get done, but easier to say anything even if it is a meh statement than leave it unknown.
  • Again, you missed to cover the effect of the skill in your analysis.
    which supposed to be the evidence to support your argument "cost too much".
    it was good start to mention the damage/cd tho. but its only a part of the effect.

    For dagger Q, just comparing direct damages doesn't tell you how much they should cost.
    Evaluating the true value of dagger Q is not that simple. there are so many thing to consider.
    Armor reduction effect work together with AA,dagger W and E skill, it needed to be evaluated in total.
    other weapons with Armor-reduction have different skill sets, so you cant just simply compare their Q too.

    All the elements combines together and it comes up with a result: true power, dps in a certain time frame.
    If the dagger has good power and is very mana hungry in a real situation(e.g. to give 5000 total damage with the weapon), then some of the costs should be adjusted (might be lowering Q cost).

    Currently dagger Q contributes daggers to be probably the highest dps melee weapon, and does great contribution for a party.
    I didnt find the mana consumption too bad. but how much extra cost should be paid for the party effect can be debatable. ppl have different play style, different opinion.

    Tyrannosaurus-rex / Rest in Pieces
    Chill out, Dickwad
  • @Tojuji
    Because how do you compare these in a binary/black-and-white fashion?
    • +10% movespeed on self stacking x3
    • -10% movespeed on target stacking x2
    • -13 resistance on target
    • slow target and 3 hits stuns
    • -32% movespeed on target
    • -10% healing received on target stacking x3
    There isn't. We'd simple each have our own perception of it

    You are correct, we could try to compare Auto-Attack, W skill options, etc. ... but, again, those aren't binary things we can compare so is subject to people's opinions.

    That said, I'd love to see you compare daggers to a single weapon set explaining why daggers should cost so much more and get almost half the damage per energy spent of other weapons. What in your opinion makes that valid?

    Seriously, how much value is it for a dagger player to be able to maintain armor resistance on a target if-and-only-if they can stay on that target for the seconds it takes to apply 3 stacks and then if-and-only-if they are able to stay in melee with the target to keep applying it before it falls off ...

    Think about that when you're looking at all the jockeying for position that happens in GvG fights. Then compare that to how teams will use the Axe's or Cursed Staff's higher resistance debuff in a single hit on a target that they focus instantly.

    Given that ... I don't think the shred warrants the extra cost.

    Comparing the W options ... Dagger has the weakest of the Healing Debuffs as well ... compare it to the Cursed Staff and Axe options.

    It also does not have a big hit on W like Axe does ... and Axe has big hits on their E as well.

    So, again, given that, why do we see the Axe with some of the lowest cost and best damage to cost ratios while the dagger has some of the highest cost and worst damage to cost ratios?
  • Can I ask u to make the shart you have provided us above with the following armor figures ---> 50%, 65%, 75% and 80% reduction? Those are pretty common numbers around the world of albion when it comes to high end and at the start. I am actually eager to find out where dagger would stand when armor is applied. I would like too see the break even point of the damage/energycost ratio.

    Skills with pierce will get stronger the more resistance is involved, a easy example would be 90% armor and our q-stacks removing ~12 % of it. Granting a 120% damage increase for this particular case (This could lead to sever balance issues if the numbers where balanced around those resistances)

    The information could bring us closer to where developers decide to balance their damage numbers around. T7.0? T8.3 and so on. If u have the time I would appriciate it very much, since I dont have the time :(
  • Yes, true.
    Can't truly compare Damages and CCs objectively. every one may rate them differently.
    so i think theres no right or wrong, but people should discuss about them.
    Armour debuff is easier than that, the effect could be converted to dameage value,
    but its still hard to work out what they worth, and could be depend on playstyle.
    And I believe that is why the game looks for real feedbacks from testers.


    the other difficult thing is that, the armor reduction does not have consistent effectiveness per a point.
    In my unserstanding of the damage reduction system "1-(100/100+x)",
    Armor reduction has more intense damage boost effect when armor is smaller. (inverse proportionality)

    even if you reduce enemy armor by the same amout; for instance 50,
    damage will be boosted much more in the situation of "armour reduced from 100 to 50" than "from 1000 to 950".




    One aspect, that dagger Q is superior is that it has very short CD(3sec) and has 8sec duration.
    This means ppl can keep max stack forever. this is very strong.
    Similary, Spears now can stack their boost-buff continuously but they consumes more energy after max stack.

    On the other hand, as you mentioned axes have big damage together, cursed with ranged aoe.
    if you use dagger q three time, it will be more damage than the axe W, and you can still continue to spam and combo with other skills.

    Tyrannosaurus-rex / Rest in Pieces
    Chill out, Dickwad

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Tojuji ().

  • @Substanz_D
    You can take those damages from above and just multiply them by those percentages you want to get the other numbers. You'll get the same average by just taking the averages given and multiplying them by 80% that you will be multipling all the individual values by 80% and then averaging them.

    The way you describe penetration doesn't appear to match how it works. Penetration is for when the focus fire mechanics in the game kick in ... the more people attacking you, the more resistance you get. Daggers get to ignore 75% of that resistance ... other melee weapons range from 50% or lower on it. Daggers are fully single target though while the others are not; at least that's my theory for the difference. You only see penetration on melee weapons as its to account for the fact that melee in large fights is more dangerous/difficult than range.

    @Tojuji
    The cooldown on Sunder Armor is 3s. The 2s cooldown you're thinking is for both of Axe's Q skills ... the ones with some of the solidly lowest costs, best damage to cost ratios and damage to cooldown ratios ... on top of having a higher resistance debuff option and 100% up-time healing debuff option ... on top of their various E skills that can also debuff healing.

    @ both of you
    Are you more scared of a dagger that has to use a Q skill 3 times to sunder armor less than an Axe/Cursed Staff can? Or more afraid of the stronger, instant armor shred (often paired with heal debuff on you) followed by burst damage in a coordinated group fight?

    @ both of you
    Given that the dagger is far from the only source of resistance debuff ... why is it the only one being punished for having it? Especially when it can reduce by less and requires 3 hits stacked?
  • ok
    but then , the first option must be changed to 66.7% not 75%.
    and what you compare to 38,2 is not 25%. its 33.3%

    so,
    (38.2-33.3)/33.3= 14.7% damage increase when 13x3armor is reduced from 200




    or if you want to use 75%(300 armor) again,

    1-(100/100+(300-3x13)=0.72299

    (27.7-25)/25=10.8% damage increase when 13x3 armor is reduced from 300




    from my observation, monsters have much lower armor than these.
    for instance
    i could deal 85% of physical damage to T5 bear, meaning they resists 15%(its approx 17.6 armor if im right)
    if i reduce their armor by 42, i could deal 20%+ more damage.

    Tyrannosaurus-rex / Rest in Pieces
    Chill out, Dickwad
  • @Sebrent

    ah sorry i meant CD(3sec) and Axe W.




    its like this

    T8 dagger Q
    228 damage CD3sec cost 17 -15armor

    x3stack
    684+damage 9sec+ cost 51 -45 armor
    damage will be larger than 228x3=684 because the armor reduction will already be working in normal situation.


    T8 battleaxe W
    572 damage CD15sec cost 33 -47armor

    Tyrannosaurus-rex / Rest in Pieces
    Chill out, Dickwad