Dagger Q Skills Cost Too Much

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    • @Tojuji and @Substanz_D
      I'll crunch the numbers for normal Guardian (highest Armor) and Mage (lowest Armor)

      Normal T8 Guardian Armor gives you 261 armor ... 72.30% mitigation

      261 - 15 = 246 ... 71.10% mitigation @ 1 stack of Sunder Armor (1.2% more damage taken)
      246 - 15 = 231 ... 69.78% mitigation @ 2 stacks of Sunder Armor (2.51% more damage taken)
      231 - 15 = 216 ... 68.35% mitigation @ 3 stacks of Sunder Armor (3.94% more damage taken)

      So those 3 stacks are making that target take 3.94% more damage. I'm failing to see how this makes up for the Dagger getting almost half the damage per energy of the average melee weapon.

      Normal T8 Mage Robe gives you 113 armor ... 53.05% mitigation
      113 - 15 = 98 ... 49.49% mitigation @ 1 stack of Sunder Armor (3.56% more damage taken)
      98 - 15 = 83 ... 45.36% mitigation @ 2 stacks of Sunder Armor (7.70% more damage taken)
      83 - 15 = 68 ... 40.48% mitigation @ 3 stacks of Sunder Armor (12.58% more damage taken)

      While it does provide a higher damage bonus, a 12.58% damage increase is not going to come close to overcoming energy costs that result in almost half the damage per energy of the average melee weapon.
    • your calculation looks very accurate. quite much like what I think it is.

      and yeah,
      solo fighting against a high armor guy is the worst part of dagger Q in terms of effectiveness.
      i think you can say its high cost vs reward for this situation.

      and it could be high rewarding when fighting against a low armor enemy with a lot of people.
      but the cost is fix value... atm i cant really suggest a particular mana cost unless i face a major mana issue.

      Tyrannosaurus-rex / Rest in Pieces
      Chill out, Dickwad
    • I guess u got confused when I said penetration. I didnt mean focus fire penetration (e.g 2+ people hitting the same target and get a damage reduction) rather like: penetration against resistance of a character (e.g 100% damage -x resistance value= y% penetration of damage)

      My choice of words is akward my bad.

      Well if I have time I will make a sheet on finding the break even point. Currently I dont.


      Answering ur question. I dont know what is my armor reduction? How high is my focus fire protection?

      If I am a cloth user I would be more scared of a 80% slow plus silence for example. The right combination leads to a certain death of me. Whilst a a heavy smash into a damage spike might not.
    • Sebrent schrieb:

      @Tojuji and @Substanz_D
      I'll crunch the numbers for normal Guardian (highest Armor) and Mage (lowest Armor)

      Normal T8 Guardian Armor gives you 261 armor ... 72.30% mitigation

      261 - 15 = 246 ... 71.10% mitigation @ 1 stack of Sunder Armor (1.2% more damage taken)
      246 - 15 = 231 ... 69.78% mitigation @ 2 stacks of Sunder Armor (2.51% more damage taken)
      231 - 15 = 216 ... 68.35% mitigation @ 3 stacks of Sunder Armor (3.94% more damage taken)

      So those 3 stacks are making that target take 3.94% more damage. I'm failing to see how this makes up for the Dagger getting almost half the damage per energy of the average melee weapon.

      Normal T8 Mage Robe gives you 113 armor ... 53.05% mitigation
      113 - 15 = 98 ... 49.49% mitigation @ 1 stack of Sunder Armor (3.56% more damage taken)
      98 - 15 = 83 ... 45.36% mitigation @ 2 stacks of Sunder Armor (7.70% more damage taken)
      83 - 15 = 68 ... 40.48% mitigation @ 3 stacks of Sunder Armor (12.58% more damage taken)

      While it does provide a higher damage bonus, a 12.58% damage increase is not going to come close to overcoming energy costs that result in almost half the damage per energy of the average melee weapon.
      IMHO, damage increase should be calculated in another way.

      Example T8 Guardian:
      Weapon swing for 100 damage
      0 Stacks: 27,7 damage after mitigation
      3 stacks: 31,65 damage after mitigation

      27,7 -> 31,65, that's 14,26% damage increase.


      Example T8 Mage Robe:
      Weapon swing for 100 damage:
      0 Stacks: 46,95 damage after mitigation
      3 stacks: 59,52 damage after mitigation

      46,95 -> 59,52, that's 26,77% damage increase

      It still gives better results against low armored enemies, but it's far not that bad.
    • Was about to point out that we shouldnt look at total damage dealt (before mitigation), rather look at the total damage dealt (after mitigation).
      This will drastically increase the usefullness of said dagger q against higher tier armor then any other q in the game btw.

      Additionally lets not forget too take into account that other party members are benefiting from the armor reduction aswell. For pve it would mean a flat multiplier for the entire group ( if we calculate damage dealt (old armor values) x 1.a (where a = armor value old - armor value new), in a pvp situation we have to calculate with the focus fire but it still will result in a good chunk of extra damage (especially if we take no penetration in account)


      Btw im at not against a energy reduction on both dagger q-slots. I was just trying to give the perspectiv of a dev here :D
    • @Nydiadus
      That's a good point, but that is still only 14.26% and 26.77% increases while the damage to energy ratio of Sunder Armor is barely above 50% of the average at T4 and T8.

      @Substanz_D
      No worries at all bud. That's what these forums are for (at least for me, lol). The discussion of these different ways to look at it are how we make sure my head isn't up my butt ;)

      While you are quite correct that the resistance debuff is a damage multiplier for the group, how do we weigh that compared to the other weapons that have higher resistance debuffs on single hits so that they can spike a target instantly?

      How do we compare that to the damage increase on a target due to having it permanently slowed (Hammer, Mace, Spear, etc.) or stunned constantly (Quarterstaff)? Simply locking down a target drastically increases the damage melee teammates can apply to it.

      How about comparing it to having 100% up-time on a healing debuff on the target (Axe) ?

      Should dagger be punished this badly with these high energy costs simply because they provide a potential bonus to their group's damage against their target? ... assuming they can stick to that target long enough to get and keep 3 stacks of Sunder Armor on it.

      Lastly, this potential for having 100% up-time on a resistance debuff on a target only applies to Daggers' Sunder Armor. Assassin's Spirit does *not* do anything for the group AND debuff's the Dagger wielder's own armor quite substantially yet it also suffers from the high energy cost.