A post just regarding to the base 2 handed axes being under-powered (great axe and halberd)

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    • A post just regarding to the base 2 handed axes being under-powered (great axe and halberd)

      I would like to address that the non-artifact 2 handed axes are pretty under-powered, especially the halberd.
      I am a long term axe user, and I have tried all kinds of axes in many situations

      The other axes, the one handed battle axe's E give certain single targeted damage and great sustains, making it really good in soloing fights and duelling, and it can afford another off hand weapon, shield for damage reduction or mist caller for extra cdr ( more heal at more mana cost)
      the carrion caller has an E that can do aoe, ranged healing reduction, instant damage and bleed damage over time which make it really useful, in duelling or in small to large group fights.
      the scythe, despite that it being almost the most expensive weapon than all others in the same tier, it does the most damage in all the axes (numerically), the E with double hit of aoe heroic strike and another aoe bleeding effect. its a bit vulnerable to kites, but its damage is high enough to burst them down once you get into range. it is good in many kind of battles, if you can afford it of course.

      however the 2 non artifact 2 handed axe, are pretty bad.

      The great axe's E whirlwind, is channelled aoe dot damage around yourself for 5 sec and 10 ticks (2ticks per sec), and each tick does 80% of a basic attack's damage. it work decently in pve, and that's all it is good for. in any pvp situations, its really under-powered.
      the ideal case is that your enemy don't have cc and they are running away. you casted run or adrenaline boost, meanwhile casting E, that's some good damage when chasing an escaping target since you can move meanwhile channelling the whirlwind, but in most cases you don't find this situation happening. Whirlwind can be interrupted easily by a knock away or stun or they don't even have to interrupt your channelling, they can just keep you in place with any cc and move outside of your E range and wait for the duration of it is over, they can take a few ticks because it doesn't do much damage unless they take the full duration of whirlwind. you can hardly land the entire duration on someone in a duel, and you can be easily kited by any ranged weapon.

      and since your E is aoe dot, you will 100% trigger something like cleric cowl's R everlasting spirit. for triggering stuff like bloodlust on mercenary jacket, any axe having rending strike on can do as much a good job that whirlwind can.
      any weapon with a stun or knock away, or any cloth helmet can put on force field can just easily interrupt your channelling, for example you will find yourself almost impossible to beat a quarterstaff user with the great axe. since you will never find a chance to cast your E without being interrupted. and you will almost never land your E ticks on a bow user if they take frost shot and they can kite you to death easily, since you are really immobile when you are casting your whirlwind and being slowed.

      and the Whirlwind doesn't do that much damage to a single target, some people can just fight you back and tank the entire duration of your E, and out damage you.

      With the great axe. you cant really do anything in solo or smaller group pvp, in larger scale pvp, you almost never finish your E duration since you will get interrupted right the way.The mana cost of whirlwind is really high, once you find yourself wasted whirlwind due to being disengaged, you wasted almost half of your mana pool.


      The HALBERD, it is just a weaker version of the carrion caller, a way weaker version.

      its E does the same thing that the carrion caller does, but its aoe range is way smaller, although being a little bit wider. its instant damage is way lower, and its bleeding damage is less than half of the carrion caller's E bleeding damage. and the healing reduction effect is lower, too, even that it has a faster cooldown, but it costs more mana than the carrion caller's E, so you will run out of mana real fast with the cdr and that mana cost.yet it doesn't do enough damage. You can rarely spread the rending strike bleed effects to other targets unless they are standing really close to each other since the aoe isn't big.

      in solo fights you will find that the healing reduction isnt helpful because you can't damage your enemy enough, so they don't really need to recover from the damage taken from you. you can go against kite a bit better than the great axe because your E is targeted instant cast, but different from the carrion caller, you will have to get into range to cast this spell first.

      you can argue that the halberd is the tank axe weapon that you can stand in front with heave plate, standing in the front, reduce enemy tank's healing received with your E and spreading rending strike since the halberd healing reduction time is pretty long. but you don't have a real cc to keep you alive from a group of enemy and hp bonus from axes are not as high compare to a real tank weapon.

      Even the great axe has situation that it is decent for, i.e pve and ideal chases, yet the halberd is just underpowered. Almost no one uses the halberd, even if some new axe player uses it, they will soon find out it is the most under-powered axe and switch to other axes/weapons right the way. it is being sold as the cheapest axe since the demand of it is just too low, usually people brought it, realizing it is just too bad and have to sell it for a even lower price and hope someone will buy it. or study it for axe crafter fame (like i did).

      __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

      so as above that the 2 double handed non-artifact axes are really weak especially the halberd, the halberd, THE HALBERD.

      some personal idea that i have which may make this 2 weapon better, or changes that can be make to make the 2 weapons better :

      the Great Axe's E whirlwind:

      Reduce the mana cost. NO.1 change that has to be make.
      Reduce channelling time from 5 sec to 2.5 sec.
      Reduce the amount of ticks from 10 to 5.
      Slightly increase the damage of each ticks, maybe from 80% of basic attack damage to 82.5%~85%
      Reduce the cooldown from 20 sec to 15 sec.

      Making these changes are reducing the channelling time and mana cost to make the whirlwind more mana efficiency, shorter cooldown so you may cast it again after being interrupted or being disengaged.

      the Halberd's E:

      I think it may need a new E, but if there are changes that can be make on the current E, some idea may be:

      Reduce the mana cost greatly. also the NO.1 change that has to be make.
      Make the E spins for an entire circle, like the internal bleeding does, not just damaging the front. Giving it a wider range of effect.
      Increase it's damage, both instant and bleed, or reduce it's cooldown further to 10s and reduce mana cost further.
    • Wow - I was literally just coming to post on this issue also!

      I think you nailed it. Axe line is one (if not the?) highest DPS out there. But Halberd specifically is really off the mark. Great Axe is pretty good, it needs a bit+ for PvP though.

      I like your ideas about GreatAxe. Lower 'channel', higher damage. OR, since it provide a 20% speedbuff which you can use for maneuverability, maybe make it so it is harder to cancel? Maybe a + to resistance while channeling?

      For Halberd the single target damage should increase by 50%+ OR, increase the bleed damage/duration.

      @Retroman what do you think?
    • Eron schrieb:

      Wow - I was literally just coming to post on this issue also!

      I think you nailed it. Axe line is one (if not the?) highest DPS out there. But Halberd specifically is really off the mark. Great Axe is pretty good, it needs a bit+ for PvP though.

      I like your ideas about GreatAxe. Lower 'channel', higher damage. OR, since it provide a 20% speedbuff which you can use for maneuverability, maybe make it so it is harder to cancel? Maybe a + to resistance while channeling?

      For Halberd the single target damage should increase by 50%+ OR, increase the bleed damage/duration.

      @Retroman what do you think?
      i did thought about the idea that meanwhile channelling whirlwind, the caster will be invincible to CC effects so it cant be stopped from channelling, so that dev dont have to do any other changes to the mana costs and damage etc... but it is pretty unrealistic that they will make it so, since the great axe will just be too overpowered in larger-scale group fight or even duelling since unless they can dash away, they are almost guaranteed to take the full duration of whirlwind which is a lot of damage. what i am thinking is just to make these weapons better and playable, instead of unrealistic op buffs that dev won't even consider making xd.

      i may be hoping that they may just rework a new E for halberd, since carrion caller just does a way better job at the same thing it does.

      i think a 'heavy heavy smash' will work really well, or just name it whatever.
      make it does single target damage based on the amount of rending strikes active on the target (works like double dagger's E, broadsword's E),
      and this ability can ignore an amount of armour base on the amount of rending strike active.
      maybe give a super long delay animation like how it is after you casted the axe's W 'heavy smash', to balance it's power
      this may make it really fun to play.
    • This Beta i choose this weapon the 2 hand greataxe for test and i like its gameplay and possibilities , I didn't like Carrion caller or Halberd.

      I think its not possible to have it all, it may be bad against ranged specially Icicle staff , but once you get near they have hard time to stay alive.

      You have bleeding, and you can counter the slows with Battle Frenzy or you can go Bleeding and shield brake.

      To get closer you can use Knight boots or those boots with blink (like in lugzi build).

      Now about the Buff you mentioned -

      I use bloodlust on merc jacket that heals you for 15 ticks so if that you mentioned happen -

      "Reduce channeling time from 5 sec to 2.5 sec.
      Reduce the amount of ticks from 10 to 5."


      It would destroy the synergy between those items. Would be a NERF, the other cons you put on it would not make it viable anyway at least for me.

      But i like what you pointed out.

      1- The E needs a Buff on its Damage for sure and probably a CD reduction (would be nice)
      2- A passive on E where get more dmg if attack from the back while person try to flee.
      3- CD reset if get knocked back before complete at least 50% of the Whirlwind or 2 sec after start the spin ,something like that could be viable too.



      (EDIT) ps- About you second post ,Have you tried Battle frenzy + Whirlwind???

      'Spin to win'
    • Carpazzo schrieb:

      This Beta i choose this weapon the 2 hand greataxe for test and i like its gameplay and possibilities , I didn't like Carrion caller or Halberd.

      I think its not possible to have it all, it may be bad against ranged specially Icicle staff , but once you get near they have hard time to stay alive.

      You have bleeding, and you can counter the slows with Battle Frenzy or you can go Bleeding and shield brake.

      To get closer you can use Knight boots or those boots with blink (like in lugzi build).

      Now about the Buff you mentioned -

      I use bloodlust on merc jacket that heals you for 15 ticks so if that you mentioned happen -

      "Reduce channeling time from 5 sec to 2.5 sec.
      Reduce the amount of ticks from 10 to 5."


      It would destroy the synergy between those items. Would be a NERF, the other cons you put on it would not make it viable anyway at least for me.

      But i like what you pointed out.

      1- The E needs a Buff on its Damage for sure and probably a CD reduction (would be nice)
      2- A passive on E where get more dmg if attack from the back while person try to flee.
      3- CD reset if get knocked back before complete at least 50% of the Whirlwind or 2 sec after start the spin ,something like that could be viable too.



      (EDIT) ps- About you second post ,Have you tried Battle frenzy + Whirlwind?
      1 you cannot cast a spell when you are casting whirl wind. as you said you will have use the gapclose on boots to get close, cast battle frenzy then go whirlwind. the usual case is the kiter just jump away casts any run skill, and it is worst because you wasted 3 skills instead of one. i always take heavy smash or internal bleeding against kiters because targeted instant damage cannot be dodged, can be blocked, tho, but any spell can be blocked. and no one always take battle frenzy in open world, its not duelling you can't swap skills when being attacked/ attacking in open world.

      2 any axe having rending strike on does nearly as much a good job that whirlwind would on triggering bloodlust, without a 5 sec self silence and huge mana cost.

      i think being able to channel it fast and just deal better dmg with it will work better against kites and interrupting mechanism, since they will have to take a few ticks before jumping away mid air, before they cast a stun or go invis, and those few hits will do way higher dmg before the skill goes waste, because right now, after you land whirlwind for the first few ticks for the rest of the duration you are pretty much just spinning there along, meanwhile self silenced.

      and mana cost mana cost and mana cost, whirlwind cost too much mana for it, especially waste when its not fully being used.

      for halberd just think about it, a way weaker damage and shorter cdr skill costs more mana than carrion caller's E, a way useful skill? that doesn't even make sense

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Furinkazan ()

    • I enjoy using great axe and the only real issue I find is the damage not being good enough, I do run out of mana but on my quarterstaff its much worse so I don't think its that much of an issue.

      I think a damage increase would work,
      A damage stacking effect like boltcasters where every hit of the whirlwind increases the damage,
      An effect like claws where if you hit them a certain amount of time it triggers a bleed effect,

      Any of the above would work.
    • Wraithghost schrieb:

      I enjoy using great axe and the only real issue I find is the damage not being good enough, I do run out of mana but on my quarterstaff its much worse so I don't think its that much of an issue.

      I think a damage increase would work,
      A damage stacking effect like boltcasters where every hit of the whirlwind increases the damage,
      An effect like claws where if you hit them a certain amount of time it triggers a bleed effect,

      Any of the above would work.
      i think first hit bleed would work maybe,
      maybe also reduce channeling time with first hit bleed will work amazingly.

      the issue is not it goes oom, its that this skill can be canceled too easy and the huge mana cost goes waste.
    • Energy consumption on all two handed axe weapons should be reduced for more rotation to improve dps, fix whirlwind to make you take reduced damage and reflect damage % to make people think twice about focusing you during the very weak dps spin (which you should be able to cancel).

      Great Axes, Halberds and Carrioncallers have been in a weird place for a long time and out of MANY weapon balance changes since I started in Beta 2 nothing has changed aside from renaming "Heavy Smash" to "Deadly Chop".

      Any planned changes/improvements? @Korn @Retroman
    • PezDSpnzr schrieb:

      Energy consumption on all two handed axe weapons should be reduced for more rotation to improve dps, fix whirlwind to make you take reduced damage and reflect damage % to make people think twice about focusing you during the very weak dps spin (which you should be able to cancel).

      Great Axes, Halberds and Carrioncallers have been in a weird place for a long time and out of MANY weapon balance changes since I started in Beta 2 nothing has changed aside from renaming "Heavy Smash" to "Deadly Chop".

      Any planned changes/improvements? @Korn @Retroman
      Best post evah :thumbup:

      Been trying out Spear line recently and find they do more DPS than axe (+they have slow/stun). Sad. ;(
      IGN : Ravenar
      Discord : Ravenar#2076
      (on break)
    • PezDSpnzr schrieb:

      Energy consumption on all two handed axe weapons should be reduced for more rotation to improve dps, fix whirlwind to make you take reduced damage and reflect damage % to make people think twice about focusing you during the very weak dps spin (which you should be able to cancel).

      Great Axes, Halberds and Carrioncallers have been in a weird place for a long time and out of MANY weapon balance changes since I started in Beta 2 nothing has changed aside from renaming "Heavy Smash" to "Deadly Chop".

      Any planned changes/improvements? @Korn @Retroman
      this thread was posted before the name change, so it was called the heavy smash when i make this thread xd, this is a pretty old thread i suppose.
      this thread was also made before the spear buff, so axe used to have more damage than spear.... which doesnt happen anymore,
      sword and spear now both process better utility than most axes, since they provide either cc or a gap closer, meanwhile having no lesser damage than axe.
      axe may have higher damage number on their status, but because axe attacks are too slow and too immobile during their animation, their damage is actually lower in the process of the fight.

      the damage weapons i suppose, dagger and axe, are hardly fulfilling their role, except some and only popular ones, i.e carrion callers and blood letter, scythe is popular only in city duels and high end gvg.

      well i ve already come to an realization such that the beta is over and developers are not gonna look at forum thread as often when they make changes now,
      for you guys hoping for a good changes, good luck

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Furinkazan ()

    • Totally agree that both of these weapons should be reworked. The halberd has always been a very lackluster weapon even since the betas. To me at least, Great axe gameplay feels very slow and unimpactful when pvping or pveing.

      The overall concept of the weapons in the Axe lineup are to be high damage burst weapons which are balanced out by having very low mobility overall, hence the reason why they have armor pierces, heal debuffs and high base damage.

      The Great axe really doesn't live up to that standard like the Carrion and Scythe do and the Halberd is just plain underpowered and overlooked judging from its very generic E ability.
    • Will axes ever get any love?

      Here are a few ideas from a t8 Axe user.
      ---------------

      Halberd deserves a new E - or a QoL change.

      Greataxe spin shouldn't be interruptible.

      1H axe and Scythe E could use a small dmg buff.

      Remove the attack speed buff from Battle Frenzy(W), it just doesn't fit the spell at all. Instead change the cc reduction to include ALL forms of cc.
      { OR: Merge Battle Frenzy and Adrenaline boost into one spell. }

      Change force strike(Q). It is so basic - pretty much only used for PvE farming because lower energy cost.

      Significantly increase the bleed damage per tick for internal bleeding(W) but lower the total number of ticks. Scythe E could use this also.

      ----------------


      Every other melee has some kind of CC and still keep up in damage with Axes. If the identity of the axe is supposed to be high damage + lowered incoming heals at least make it feel like we do more damage than other melee's. Or give us CC as well...
    • Vade schrieb:

      Change force strike(Q). It is so basic - pretty much only used for PvE farming because lower energy cost.
      I actually like Fierce Strike (PvE, like you said). Short cooldown, decent instant damage. Heavy Smash (Deadly Chop), Fierce Strike, Refreshing Sprint + 3x Heavy Smash Fierce Strike is my favourite combo. :D

      Must have: Make Heavy Smash animation (slightly?) faster. Let player interrupt own Whirlwind. Check basic damage output on every spell compared to other weapons.

      Nice to have: Anything Pez said (reflect damage, armor bonus etc) or give whirlwind ability to break roots and uninterruptable.

      @Korn
      IGN : Ravenar
      Discord : Ravenar#2076
      (on break)

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 4 mal editiert, zuletzt von Ravenar ()

    • If we are wish listing

      Passives: I would like to see bleeds removed and Sunder Armour on 4 hits reducing their Armour for a short period. Just think it fits more with the theme of the weapon.

      Q
      Add Ability Axe Throw. Damage + Slow

      W
      Heavy Chop: Instead of Armour Break. I think it should apply a big damage hit and a bleed on top.
      Internal Bleeding: Should tick every second they are moving not in bursts and maybe cripple them stopping them from being able to use movement impairing abilities for a few seconds.
      Adrenaline: Should be a rush of Adrenaline so a energy boost and movement speed increase but drop the damage bonus to 10%.
      Battle Frenzy: Duration 5s Immune to CC and hit increases attack speed by 10% Stacks 5 times Max stacks will see a damage increase 10%.

      E
      Great Axe : I would like to see Sunder Armour placed on the whirl wind applying stacks the longer they stay in the AoE this would see a much needed damage increase but lower the duration of the channel to balance.

      Completely rework Halberd has no place in the game in its current form.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Brutal_Massacre ()

    • Not sure why, but i like Halberd, kinda fun to play with it. BUT it's damage is so low, you cant use it anywhere, completely useless weapon...

      I hope in next update it will get buffed.

      Suggestions: increase range of E, increase base and bleed damage on it. And actually bleeding on Q and W should get damage increase, because even on cloth wearers it's just funny to see that bleedings does 5-10dmg per tick... I mean it's damage over time, not event instant, and all other weapons can do 10 times better with instant damage and same CD...