extremely quick rising Gold price is a reason to stop trading. Our economy is dying.

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    • kronsky_ schrieb:

      I don't think that the value of the gold is the problem here.

      The problem is making money with off-game knowledge like Gevlon had explained, furthermore this kind of "trade" will hurt players trying to gather gold for premium status because the speculation will artificially raise even more the price of the gold at critical moments (30 days after release as an example).
      a) Gevlon did not explain anything - he only "postulated" that outsider knowledge is a thing, and will benefit those "connected" (which I already knew, took for granted, and dismissed, as that % of those who will benefit through "insider knowledge" is minuscule)...same thing happens in EVE and in Real Life... there is no way around it - if you want to keep this a sandbox... If you wanna make this into an "everyone is equal WOW-clone thieme park MMO" - sure, be my guest...

      b) "off-game" knowledge is a very general term. I use "off-game" knowledge everyday in Albion to make more silver (and thus gold) then the others by using the knowledge of "econimics". Now assuming by "off-game" knowledge you mean people who are "connected" with the devs - see point #1 (the % of such individuals is minuscule, and there will always be such people, in any game, and in any RL situation)

      Speculation in and of itself is not going to hurt anything - because its a tool (resource) available to everyone, so its "equal" and anyone is free to participate.
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      kronsky_ schrieb:

      I don't think that the value of the gold is the problem here.

      The problem is making money with off-game knowledge like Gevlon had explained, furthermore this kind of "trade" will hurt players trying to gather gold for premium status because the speculation will artificially raise even more the price of the gold at critical moments (30 days after release as an example).
      a) Gevlon did not explain anything - he only "postulated" that outsider knowledge is a thing, and will benefit those "connected" (which I already knew, took for granted, and dismissed, as that % of those who will benefit through "insider knowledge" is minuscule)...same thing happens in EVE and in Real Life... there is no way around it - if you want to keep this a sandbox... If you wanna make this into an "everyone is equal WOW-clone thieme park MMO" - sure, be my guest...
      b) "off-game" knowledge is a very general term. I use "off-game" knowledge everyday in Albion to make more silver (and thus gold) then the others by using the knowledge of "econimics". Now assuming by "off-game" knowledge you mean people who are "connected" with the devs - see point #1 (the % of such individuals is minuscule, and there will always be such people, in any game, and in any RL situation)

      Speculation in and of itself is not going to hurt anything - because its a tool (resource) available to everyone, so its "equal" and anyone is free to participate.
      That's not a real issue. There is no problem in blocking access for most SBI stuff to this information. Access management is integral part of any computer system. That only leaves top people to be corrupt. And if top people are corrupt there's nothing stopping them. They don't need any ingame system to manipulate for bribes. They can sell silver or x.4 resources directly and erase all traces - why should they even bother to manipulate gold market or
      sell gold trading tips?
      'Cacatio Matutina Est Tamquam Medicina'
      X/
    • Targun schrieb:

      That's not a real issue. There is no problem in blocking access for most SBI stuff to this information. Access management is integral part of any computer system. That only leaves top people to be corrupt. And if top people are corrupt there's nothing stopping them. They don't need any ingame system to manipulate for bribes. They can sell silver or x.4 resources directly and erase all traces - why should they even bother to manipulate gold market or
      sell gold trading tips?
      so what is the problem then? :)

      Are we complaining about some "made up" (read = no hard proof, only theory) that "They (devs) can sell silver or x.4 resources directly and erase all traces - why should they even bother to manipulate gold market or sell gold trading tips?"

      Again, if that is what you think the issue is - just drop it, because this is how every RL situation works...and Albion (the video-game) is a product/service from the Real World... it might be affected by the same vice...

      (Im not saying this is good, Im saying that this is just the freakin' reality - and whining ain't gonna solve anything)

      The best thing for you to do as the player/user is to figure out a way around it, and adapt (i.e - beat the system or make it work for you)...


      The thread should have been renamed to "How do I survive the financial world of Albion if I have baseless(theoretical) suspicion of Dev foul play and market manipulation?"
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • I don't think there is anything wrong with the gold system as it is, once the game is running. However, I would suggest two small changes to prevent mass accumulation of gold at the very start of the game.

      Either:
      1. Set a minimum sale price of gold of 100s (if no-one is willing to pay 100s, then you can't sell your gold at that time).
      2. Don't open the gold market until the second week of the game.

      If you can buy gold for 1-5s in the first day and then sell a week later for 150-200s, that is a bit of a problem.

      No-one needs gold the first week of the game, assuming that starter packs after release will include some free premium time. Delaying the start of gold sales will ensure that there is time for silver to build up in the game, ensuring a more stable gold market.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Zotar ()

    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      Are we complaining about some "made up" (read = no hard proof, only theory) that "They (devs) can sell silver or x.4 resources directly and erase all traces - why should they even bother to manipulate gold market or sell gold trading tips?"
      It's not made up - that's how computers work. People with top access rights can do everything if there's no external supervision.
      I'm not saying they do it. I'm arguing for the opposite. I don't believe devs take bribes for manipulating gold market because if they wanted to be corrupted there's easier direct approach :)
      Occam's razor.
      'Cacatio Matutina Est Tamquam Medicina'
      X/
    • Zotar schrieb:

      If you can buy gold for 1-5s in the first day and then sell a week later for 150-200s, that is a bit of a problem.
      That my friend is a true definition of a sandbox (and I know many who don't get it or are too lazy to take advantage of it - are calling the WHAAAMBULANCE)

      I also wish I could buy Bitcoin now at $1-2 a pop (price when I first heard of it, sometime in 2011), so that I could re-sell now at $1000 and be set for life... RL Sandbox - which I failed to take advantage of...
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      Zotar schrieb:

      If you can buy gold for 1-5s in the first day and then sell a week later for 150-200s, that is a bit of a problem.
      That my friend is a true definition of a sandbox (and I know many who don't get it or are too lazy to take advantage of it - are calling the WHAAAMBULANCE)
      I also wish I could buy Bitcoin now at $1-2 a pop (price when I first heard of it, sometime in 2011), so that I could re-sell now at $1000 and be set for life... RL Sandbox - which I failed to take advantage of...
      The problem is that the market is broken for the first few days because there is no silver available and there will be limited numbers of players (assuming they go for a staggered launch for founders pack players). However, those limited players the first day have lots of gold and little need for it (since they also have months of pre-paid premium), which is why people are willing to sell gold for minimal amounts of silver on Day 1.

      If everyone had an opportunity to buy in the first day, it would be one thing, but the first day or two there is a huge oversupply of gold and undersupply of silver. This leaves new players coming in on Day 4 even more behind the curve (they are already behind simply because some players started early, plus not knowing what they are doing, being new).

      Perhaps they could simply wait until the full release (ie Day 4) to open the gold market. There should be enough silver floating around by then.

      In real life, they often close markets temporarily when events cause the market to break (disasters, bank runs, etc).

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 4 mal editiert, zuletzt von Zotar ()

    • Zotar schrieb:

      The problem is that the market is broken for the first few days because there is no silver available and there will be limited numbers of players (assuming they go for a staggered launch for founders pack players). However, those limited players the first day have lots of gold and little need for it (since they also have months of pre-paid premium).

      If everyone had an opportunity to buy in the first day, it would be one thing, but the first day or two there is a huge oversupply of gold and undersupply of silver. This leaves new players coming in on Day 4 even more behind the curve (they are already behind simply because some players started early).
      The fact that I was not born into a [insert wealthy Fortune 500 family name] family, means that I'm years, if not decades behind them...I mean...it sucks...can I ask the US gov-t to level the playing field for me please and throw a couple mil USD my way to subsidize my "struggle vs the rich" plz? The struggle is real bruh...

      But in all honesty it just hit me - the real issue(are we a virtue or a vice? hehe) is that players who have played other game(s)* like Albion for the past...say...10-12 years - have a huge advantage over new players who get into the Sandbox genre.

      (most newbies to the genre don't understand how it all works, especially the economics) There are a few exceptions, like the guys who have RL experience of trading stocks/Forex or running a really good RL business (landscaping companies - Im not looking at you :p)

      other games* = only Eve Online (and perhaps UO) comes to mind, although I never got to play the original UO, as I was too young back then and my family could not afford a computer in the 90s :(
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      The fact that I was not born into a [insert wealthy Fortune 500 family name] family, means that I'm years, if not decades behind them...I mean...it sucks...can I ask the US gov-t to level the playing field for me please and throw a couple mil USD my way to subsidize my "struggle vs the rich" plz? The struggle is real bruh...
      Not asking for a handout. The various levels of founders already have a large advantage, having gold, premium time, an advance start and advance knowledge of the game over new players. They don't need the extra advantage of being able to load up on gold before most players are even playing.
    • Zotar schrieb:

      Not asking for a handout. The various levels of founders already have a large advantage, having gold, premium time, an advance start and advance knowledge of the game over new players. They don't need the extra advantage of being able to load up on gold before most players are even playing.
      I am not asking for a hand out either (obviously, that was just an example) - I just accepted where I am and I work my 9-5...

      so why cant you accept that Gold in Albion is just the way it is? :)

      EDIT: and Financially speaking - asking others to "have less" is equivalent to asking for a hand out for yourself. In either case you're "attempting" to level the playing field by either asking them to have less - or asking for yourself to have more :)
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      The fact that I was not born into a [insert wealthy Fortune 500 family name] family, means that I'm years, if not decades behind them...I mean...it sucks...can I ask the US gov-t to level the playing field for me please and throw a couple mil USD my way to subsidize my "struggle vs the rich" plz? The struggle is real bruh...
      You do realize that the levels of wealth inequality in a society aren't set at a constant? And, indeed, the government is often tasked with addressing income inequality -- up to taxing the rich at a rate of 100% on earnings. Sometimes wealth inequality is very stark and the government does nothing about it. This is often when you find the impoverished masses rising up to execute the wealthy and redistribute their wealth.

      In Albion Online... if a few players establish an oligarchy by acquiring a ton of gold/silver in a quick and easy manner, then other players might be dissatisfied with that for a variety of reasons. This would depend upon how much the oligarchs earned and how hard they worked to earn it. And it would also depend upon the types of forces those players then put on the economy.

      But while there may not be a collectivist revolt against the wealthy in Albion Online, players might quit playing if they feel that the economy is too imbalanced and that certain players have somehow achieved an insurmountable advantage due to their wealth.

      And you can argue about whether that's reasonable and just or not, but that probably won't change the response that many players will likely take in the face of an emergent virtual oligarchy.
    • ThatWhichHasNoLife schrieb:

      You do realize that the levels of wealth inequality in a society aren't set at a constant? And, indeed, the government is often tasked with addressing income inequality -- up to taxing the rich at a rate of 100% on earnings. Sometimes wealth inequality is very stark and the government does nothing about it. This is often when you find the impoverished masses rising up to execute the wealthy and redistribute their wealth.

      In Albion Online... if a few players establish an oligarchy by acquiring a ton of gold/silver in a quick and easy manner, then other players might be dissatisfied with that for a variety of reasons. This would depend upon how much the oligarchs earned and how hard they worked to earn it. And it would also depend upon the types of forces those players then put on the economy.

      But while there may not be a collectivist revolt against the wealthy in Albion Online, players might quit playing if they feel that the economy is too imbalanced and that certain players have somehow achieved an insurmountable advantage due to their wealth.

      And you can argue about whether that's reasonable and just or not, but that probably won't change the response that many players will likely take in the face of an emergent virtual oligarchy.
      Ok, I sort...of...see...your...point. Like a very distant point, and I probably have to use binoculars to take a better look, but ok I'll give it to ya - you do have a very faint point.

      Having said that, I do disagree on most of your points:

      You do realize that the levels of wealth inequality in a society aren't set at a constant?

      Well, yes and no. I mean people on Fortune 500 list will pretty much always be "equally" far away from(above) me, the average Joe. Even if I double my salary, they will still be sitting in 9-digit or 11-digit (we're talking billions) net worth. Also when people use figurative speech, such as "90% of wealth is controlled by 10% of the society" - we are again looking at constant, albeit comparative percent distributions. I obviously get it that over my lifetime I will accumulate couple million $$ worth of total earnings (and so will you - and any average Joe), but that itsn't going to get me any closer to those who are in the Billions...


      And, indeed, the government is often tasked with addressing income inequality -- up to taxing the rich at a rate of 100% on earnings.

      ugh, again - yes and no. I mean the gov-t "might" establish a scaling tax (that scales up as your earnings scale), but I've never heard of 100% tax on earnings. I think in US the highest tax bracket is like 40%. Perhaps corporations and companies might be taxed at a higher % (but they are also the ones who have so many ways to "write things off" on their taxes compared to an individual person)...so in the end they are still not paying all the tax they have been levied with. So I disagree here with your statement for the most part.

      Sometimes wealth inequality is very stark and the government does nothing about it. This is often when you find the impoverished masses rising up to execute the wealthy and redistribute their wealth.

      Not sure "often" is the correct adverb? You're talking about a revolution here...and I don't remember when was the last time one occurred in a Developed country...was it like Russia in 1917? Thats not really often. Yes 3rd world countries do have revolutions and civil wards pretty often (look at present day Middle east), but they happen for much more complex reasons, then just "impoverished masses rising up to execute the wealthy and redistribute their wealth". So I disagree here with your statement for the most part.


      In Albion Online... if a few players establish an oligarchy by acquiring a ton of gold/silver in a quick and easy manner, then other players might be dissatisfied with that for a variety of reasons.

      Not really (the population would not know who those players are). Im sure there are already players who have "amassed" vast gold, but there is no "Fortune 500 Albion edition here". The only harm that can/could be done is when people like Gevlon start screaming that the sky is falling and start spreading false rumors, and try to blackmail Devs with some cheesy Blog-website of theirs... So I disagree here with your statement for the most part.



      So my 3rd point pretty much invalidates (or to be put more politically correct - puts me at a strong disagreement with) the rest of your thread.



      I don't think that there is anything different going on with Gold (today's proice btw - still holding at 271 silver/1Gold ratio) in Albion as opposed to EVE online's PLEX currency or the real world currencies such as EUR/USD or JPY or what have you...its all driven by supply+demand.


      You all just need to stop screaming that the sky is falling - probably re-read economics 101 (or some educational on currencies and monetary policy) :)




      PS. I have a Veteran's package (worst one) - so I am in now way benefiting from any of this alleged "Gold speculation and manipulation", I just get how it works and I already adapted... this is not a big deal. Deal with it.



      /thread
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Wadefu schrieb:

      I still think they should lock gold trading for a week post release.
      If they lock gold trading for a week - what is that going to accomplish?

      Come day 8 (1 week after your proposed "gold trade lock") and everyone will buy up all the gold (it will still start at a 1-1 ratio) and instead of seeing a gradual spike from 1 to like 30, and then 30-100 as we saw in the first couple days of beta launch, the gold will spike from 1 to 100 immediately, most likely in 1 day... (and people will come screaming saying that this is unfair, they had "RL responsibilities, work etc, and by the time they logged on in the evening, gold was at 100silver = 1 gold ratio")

      I mean you cant trick supply+demand... only thing you will do is actually create a much stronger ("steeper") demand, so the price will skyrocket in 1 day over the same amount as what it would have increased over the course of the 1st week...

      Buying (exchanging) 1 billion (figurative # just as example) worth of Gold over the course of 1day (after the initial week) will still create the same equilibrium price effect...except it won't be as staggered as if you were to exchange the same 1 billion slowly, over the course of entire 1 week...
      DarthMagus - T8 Stone;

      T6 dagger+leather; T5 curse; T5 all armors
    • Captainrussia schrieb:

      Well, yes and no. I mean people on Fortune 500 list will pretty much always be "equally" far away from(above) me, the average Joe.
      Maybe, but historically that hasn't always been universally true. The wealth gap based on mean earnings has fluctuated greatly over the years and in other countries the wealthy have been, at various times, completely disenfranchised.

      But the difference between RL and a game, such as Albion Online, is that it won't take nearly as much effort to revolt if all that's required is to simply stop playing the game. And what might take years or decades to work out in actual society might take only weeks or months in this game.

      Captainrussia schrieb:

      ugh, again - yes and no. I mean the gov-t "might" establish a scaling tax (that scales up as your earnings scale), but I've never heard of 100% tax on earnings. I think in US the highest tax bracket is like 40%.
      Even in the United States... the wealthy have often paid a much higher tax rate than they currently do. We're talking along the lines of double the current tax rate for the highest earners. This was, coincidentally enough, during the most prosperous periods of economic growth in the nation. And some European tax systems still tax the earnings of the rich at a much higher rate. Admittedly, I only mentioned a 100% tax on top earners because that was recently proposed by a prominent French politician a few days ago.

      Captainrussia schrieb:

      Not sure "often" is the correct adverb? You're talking about a revolution here...and I don't remember when was the last time one occurred in a Developed country...was it like Russia in 1917? Thats not really often.
      Well, it's not just highly "developed" countries which have wealth inequality and revolutions. And you often see revolutions throughout history which have wealth inequality as a prominent backdrop. You mentioned Russia, but it also happened in China, Cuba, and recently in Tunisia to kick off Arab Spring. And again... when revolutions occur in RL they are much more difficult to follow through with than they are in a virtual economy where people can simply opt out of participating.

      Captainrussia schrieb:

      Not really (the population would not know who those players are). Im sure there are already players who have "amassed" vast gold, but there is no "Fortune 500 Albion edition here". The only harm that can/could be done is when people like Gevlon start screaming that the sky is falling and start spreading false rumors, and try to blackmail Devs with some cheesy Blog-website of theirs...
      The issue isn't simply the appearance of wealth inequality. Rather, the issue is about what vast amounts of concentrated wealth are capable of doing in the game. So if someone easily amasses a ridiculous amount of wealth and can then pay off every army and corner multiple markets... it could be problematic if others are incapable of ever coming close to to the vast amounts of snowballed wealth (which overwhelmingly dictate the end game politics of Albion Online).

      Captainrussia schrieb:

      I don't think that there is anything different going on with Gold (today's proice btw - still holding at 271 silver/1Gold ratio) in Albion as opposed to EVE online's PLEX currency or the real world currencies such as EUR/USD or JPY or what have you...its all driven by supply+demand.
      Ideally. But the issue really isn't whether or not it's currently happening or whether or it's happened in Eve Online. Rather, the concern is about whether or not such a system could be and exploited and abused to the detriment of the general player base. And if such concerns can be addressed in a simple manner (restricting post market gold resale)... then it seems strange that they wouldn't be addressed insofar as it really wouldn't hurt or effect the game play in any significant way.