Player Crafted Mob Drops - Sneak Peek & Discussion

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    • Player Crafted Mob Drops - Sneak Peek & Discussion

      Hi all,

      as many of you are aware, we are working on an awesome new feature that will make sure that gear dropped by mobs is player crafted. We achieve this by having a black market NPC buy said gear from players first, before allowing that gear to be dropped by mobs. Please see below for the details on how that works.

      This has the following advantages:
      • It allows us to significantly increase overall mob drop amounts, making the PvE experience more rewarding
      • It supports the crafting, refining and gathering economy (instead of competing with it)
      • It encourages and increases trade & transportation
      • It allows us to introduce a new item sink to the game in the form or "corruption", that we can freely configure
      • It allows us to remove essences from refining as this feature already creates a link between PvE and refining/crafting, hence essence are no longer needed to fill that role
      • It allows us to remove enchanted resources as a reward for hell gates and chests and replace those with additional drops - player crafted, of course!


      Details

      Now, some of you had questions and concerns about the feature. The concerns are mostly the result of us not having specified in greater detail how the feature is going to work.

      Note that the feature's "behind the scenes" mathematics and algorithms are not simple - they can't be, as then, the feature would not work as intended. However, the actual in-game implementation will be straight forward and simple.

      Here are the details (all of which are still subject to change as we are working on the feature).
      • For each equipment item that can be dropped by mobs, we create a "virtual storage", keeping track of the current amount of items stored and the maximum amount for each item
      • Each mob has its drop table, and a roll is made against that table when he is killed. If an item is rolled, it will however only drop if the current storage for that item is > 0. If the item drops, current storage is of course reduced by 1.
      • Now, demand for player crafted items in the system is managed through a special black market place. In this market place, a smuggler NPC can buy gear from players by creating buy orders, and players can directly sell to these buy orders or place sell orders in advance that get automatically matched if a fitting NPC buy order shows up
      • Every time an item is rolled to be dropped by a mob, no matter whether it actually drops or not, "demand" for that item is created. What does this mean?
      • If demand increases, generally the smuggler NPC will create a new buy order for the respective item, at a price equal to its item value.
      • However, if, for that specific item, the number of buy orders + the number of items already stored is equal to the maximum amount of that item that can be kept in virtual storage, then the NPC will not create an additional buy order, but will instead increase the lowest price buy order by an amount equal to the item value.
      • What this means is that if an item is worth more than its item value in the player to player markets - most items are, as the item value is only slightly above the silver returned from salvage, but for salvage, you also get 25% of resources back - then the NPC will continue to increase the price in increments equal to the item value, until, eventually, the price is high enough that a player sell the item to the NPC.
      • For example, a T6.0 broad sword is currently sold for 50k silver in Fort Sterling, which is 33.6 times its item value. This means that the NPC would have to list the item and then increase its price 34 times before a player is going to sell the item to him. As mobs can only drop items that they actually have in virtual storage, and assuming a maximum storage of 1 for this item, it would have to get rolled for drop for 34 times before somebody would supply the NPC with the item, and it would finally drop after the 35th time it gets rolled.
      • It's easy to see that with the current drop chances, this is unlikely to happen much. However, in the new system the "theoretical" drop chances would be increases significantly, as the actual drop chances are self-balanced by supply, demand and the player base. Roughly speaking: Actual drop chance = (Theoretical Drop Chance) * (Item Value)/(Market Price).
      • When it comes balancing, keeping the above price creating mechanism in mind, we can actually calculate the amount of "Black Market Silver" that each Mob, when killed, is adding to the game. Simply take that mobs drop table and multiply the item value of each item with its drop chance, and then sum up all of these values. This is the amount of silver that the Black Market NPC will post to the market every time that mob gets killed. Now, if a certain mob right now drops 100s when killed, once we have the new feature in place, we could make that a drop of 80s plus 20s injected into the Black Market. This will keep the overall silver amount the same, but will shift a chunk of silver creation (as opposed to mere silver trading) away from PvE and towards gathering/refining/crafting.
      • To give you some perspective of that, when we currently calculate the average item value created by a T4 mob, for example, it roughly adds up to 0.5 (zero-point-five!) per kill - almost nothing. Hence, in the new system, we have tons of room to really buff up the theoretical item drop rates, knowing full well that the theoretical drop rates will never be reached as people are generally not willing to sell gear just at item value (as this is pretty much the same or less as you'd get for salvaging said gear, taking 75% of item value in silver and selling the 25% of resources that you get back. With this in mind, we will re-design our drop tables, and on part of it is also to decide how much "silver weight" to put on the enchantment level and quality level of gear.
      • Finally, we have the ability to set a "corruption" level for the black market. This means that a certain percentage of items sold to the Black Market NPC will never reach the mobs in question. Balancing-wise, this is exactly identical to these items trashing. We will be able to set the corruption % for each tier and enchantment level separately, allowing is to have genuine and powerful item sinks in particular for lower end gear, which the game is currently lacking
      Conclusion

      We are extremely excited about this feature. As far as we are aware, no other game has done something like this before. It's a 100% fit for Albion's DNA and will improve the game play for gatherers, refiners, crafters and PvEers alike, as their activities will no perfectly synergize with each other. As we see it, it's possibly a total game changer.

      On top of that, it allows us to get rid of band aid features such as essences as a requirement for refining and dropping refined resources hell gates and chests. None of these are needed, as the link between PvE and crafting that essences are there for is now created by our player driven item drops, and the extra reward provided by dropping enchanted resources is now provided by dropping actual gear, which is no longer a problem as its player crafted!

      And finally, we can drop satisfying amounts of gear, addressing one of Albion's greatest weaknesses, without upsetting the player driven economy.
    • Q & A

      1. Would this feature impact market trading negatively?

      This is extremely unlikely. Economically, the feature would redirect some of the silver that is usually dropped by mobs to the NPC black market. That silver can be "cashed out" by giving an item that's in NPC demand to the NPC. This, however, will only be done if the price for that item is higher than what the players are willing to pay for it. If that price is high, automatically, turnover for that item will be reduced by a factor equal to (market price / item value), so for high value items, the NPC black market will play a relevant role, but it will be minor compared to that is traded between players. On the other end, for low value items, the NPC will buy them essentially at their salvage value, hence having close to zero effect on the game economy. Through the "corruption" factor, powerful gear sinks can be introduced that will really help with gathering, refining and crafting demand and also make sure that, at the lower levels, it's not always the same gear that gets "cycled around" via trading over and over again.

      2. If I hold an item that I know the NPC will demand eventually, can't I just hold onto it until the NPC price is high enough?

      Of course, you could try, but it won't really work as you are in constant competition with other players. Waiting for price changes in market trading in general is a valid strategy, you can wait for prices to increase if you hold a certain item, or you can wait for prices to drop if you are seeking to buy one. But isn't the difference with the NPC market that you know in advances that at some point, the NPC will offer a high enough price for a certain item? Not really, as Albion is not a single player game. If you look at the player traded market, imagine what would happen if suddenly, nobody but you would be selling Double Bladed staffs. You can be certain that prices for that staff would increase significantly, as you control the market essentially in a monopoly. In reality, however, this does not work, as other people can meet the supply just as well. The same is true for NPC buy orders. As players can create sell orders in the NPC black market that get automatically matched against buy orders if the price levels cross, you can expect there to be lots of sell orders in place, before an actual purchase even gets triggered by the NPC. If that's the case, well, then you are already in direct competition over price with other players, and the competition will impact your earning potential. Holding on to 1 specific item in order to sell it at a high price won't work if another person sells the same item to the NPC first, fulfilling the demand, meaning that the NPC will take some time before he is willing to buy the item again at the same price.
    • I'm going to address this a bit out of order...

      Korn schrieb:

      And finally, we can drop satisfying amounts of gear, addressing one of Albion's greatest weaknesses, without upsetting the player driven economy.
      How was this one of Albion Online's greatest weaknesses? The only reason it could be considered a "weakness" is because some people wanted gear like they had in "those other games" and no one took a minute to make artifacts, runes, essences, souls, a silver seem cool to these players. Personally, a gear drop for an item that I can't wear (which is most of them) or don't want to wear (which is more of them) is only valuable to me by selling it in the auction house or giving it to my guildmate who may also just turn around and sell it.

      So to address this supposed weakness... you've introduced a system which draws players away from the player-driven market by creating artificial demand for certain items. This, in turn, creates an artificial market floor for items and encourages players to hold on to their items so they can sell to the NPC instead of other players when the market buy prices are too low.

      Subsequently, by artificially propping up market prices (installing a safety net for people crafting certain items) you limit the amount of blow-out wholesale deals which would cause traders to journey to the far reaches of Albion. This sort of trading is a primary reason that some players play the game. I've personally dragged my ox between cities multiple times for this purpose.

      At the same time... if the NPC can afford the products beings sold, then those items are probably not in very high demand. And if the products aren't in high demand... then why would PvE players be so very thrilled to get a generic item that most people aren't interested in?

      I suppose the NPC could get a bargain basement deal on an item that otherwise could have went to an attentive and resourceful player, but again... this just adds a step in the process where players don't have to deal with the player-driven market. And it potentially takes advantage of lazy players like other real players would have otherwise done. And yes, it is a negative thing that economic PvP is being limited in a full loot game which is essentially a cut throat war simulation.

      But if the product is in demand and the NPC keeps raising its bid... the additional pressure to keep prices up will effect players who are trying to save up money and get the special item they want. This negatively effects a different group of players.

      It also doesn't encourage crafters to make what's in demand in the player-riven market.

      Some of these scenarios are almost certain to play out (with greater or lesser negative consequences) and it's likely that all of these scenarios will be played out at different times involving different players.

      Overall... I just don't see how this system is going to work sufficiently -- even in regard to satisfying PvE playes. And while I suspect that this system may have partly been introduced to help new players who join the game later than at the start, I can't help but to wonder how this system will operate at the start of the game (slowly but surely driving the price of items up while players are looking to try out new things). And if the NPC raises its price high enough for some item that no one is producing or which everyone is buying... then more established players will probably be in a better position to step in and fill the order before new players do.


      Korn schrieb:

      It allows us to significantly increase overall mob drop amounts, making the PvE experience more rewarding
      The items that drop the most will be the items that the NPC can afford because no one is buying them on the open and free market. I don't see how getting an unwanted item with little real value would be very rewarding.



      Korn schrieb:

      It supports the crafting, refining and gathering economy (instead of competing with it)
      It potentially creates artificial demand for products which will then raise the price of resources for crafters who want to make other things (perhaps even things that players desperately want).



      Korn schrieb:

      It encourages and increases trade & transportation
      It encourages dumping items to the NPC rather than creating blowout deals that would have otherwise drawn traders to town in their trading business.



      Korn schrieb:

      It allows us to introduce a new item sink to the game in the form or "corruption", that we can freely configure
      I mean, yeah, it's an item sink for items that don't have much value on the open market. However you arbitrarily configure the "corruption" you're going to have hard time getting around that.


      Korn schrieb:

      It allows us to remove essences from refining as this feature already creates a link between PvE and refining/crafting, hence essence are no longer needed to fill that role
      At least the essences caused players to actively participate in the same system. You could have just increased the drop rate so that they're not highly valuable items. Then you put the real value in runes, souls, artifacts and the silver rewards.


      Korn schrieb:

      It allows us to remove enchanted resources as a reward for hell gates and chests and replace those with additional drops - player crafted, of course!



      You're going to replace the god-tier drops of the current hell gates with drops containing items that the NPC could afford because those items couldn't compete in the free market. I'm not so sure that will go over well.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von ThatWhichHasNoLife ()

    • Hi all,

      Please note that this is a discussion thread. I deleted some one-line to this thread as they do not contribute anything and only make the thread less readable for people who are genuinely interested in discussing or criticizing the implications of this feature. Ranting is allowed in our forums, but not as part of the feedback forum as that would destroy the purpose of this forum, which is to help us improve the game.

      When contributing to this thread, be as positive or critical as you like, but please stay constructive.

      All the best,
      Korn
    • Tezari schrieb:

      This idea sounds greats but at the same time sound like FINAL FINAL FINAL BETA is coming...

      Are this great, wonderful and BIG changes gonna be ready for the release in 4 months??
      The release date of July 17th is set.

      The above changes - unless something totally unexpected happens - will be ready in time for release, and most likely, in time for the pre-release update.
    • Grimfest schrieb:

      question.... so why do the black market npcs only buy crafted gear? Why not everything that can be listed on the marketplace? Raw and refined resources, seeds, potions, food, mounts, whatever people want to sell to the black market guy?
      The NPC only buys stuff that is in demand, and stuff can only be in demand if it is part of that NPCs drop table. Hence, NPCs will only ever buy what in theory they could also drop.

      Keep in mind that the goal of the feature is not to inject tons of extra silver into the economy via NPC buying, but rather, to make sure that stuff that mobs drop is player crafted, as opposed to system generated. A cool side effect of this is that we can now let NPCs drop more gear, as it will no longer harm the player driven economy, instead, it will help it. Note that gear - equipable items - are psychologically far cooler as drops than pure ingredients such as essences, runes, or artifacts.
    • tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      Currently some monsters and chests drop gear (armor and weapons). That gear is created by the server from nothing to give to the players. The developers want the gear that drops to be crafted by the players so they developed a system where a "black market" NPC will buy gear from players on a separate auction house. The gear that is bought by this "black market" NPC will then have a chance to drop on monsters where it currently does - the only difference is now the gear drops will be player crafted.
    • tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      You will see a blackmarket NPC, the guy will buy some random items that the "Mobs" are requesting in open world to fight us "The albioners".
      The price of the items that the blackmarket NPC will buy is determined by "The Albioners" Auction houses in every city. (Magic! or read above for explanation)

      Every mob will be able (chance%%) to drop the items that the BlackMarket NPC bought from us "the albioners". so every item drop in open world is crafted by "the albioners" and sold to the "Mobs" to be droped back to "the albioners".

      hope is retarded enough...
    • Lobram schrieb:

      tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      Currently some monsters and chests drop gear (armor and weapons). That gear is created by the server from nothing to give to the players. The developers want the gear that drops to be crafted by the players so they developed a system where a "black market" NPC will buy gear from players on a separate auction house. The gear that is bought by this "black market" NPC will then have a chance to drop on monsters where it currently does - the only difference is now the gear drops will be player crafted.
      Okay, I'm with you so far. If I'm understanding correctly, you can't just craft 100 hammers and sell them to the NPC without the demand to support it, correct? Will there be a list of items that the NPC is willing to buy? Basically what I'm asking is, if I craft 100 hammers, can I turn around and sell those to the black market instead of salvaging?
    • tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      I'll try.

      General Explanation

      Imagine that the mobs that get killed in Albion Online every day need supplies of gear. The more mobs are killed, the more supplies they need. Supplies are bought via a black market NPC.

      Now, if a mob is in supply, when he gets killed, he has a chance to drop that gear.

      Super simplified example (not 100% accurate, but does get the point across)
      • A Morgana Knight has a chance of 10% to drop a sword.
      • However, the mobs do not have a sword in stock right now, as no player has sold them one on the black market recently
      • A player kills the knight. Chance has it that the sword drop gets rolled - i.e. the Morgana Knight wants to drop the sword, but he does not have one, so he can't drop it.
      • He sends word to his black market NPC and tells him to buy a sword
      • The black market NPC puts up a buy order for the sword at a low price, say, 1,000 silver
      • No player is willing to sell the sword at that price
      • The Morgana Knight gets 90 more times. The sword drop - 10% chance - gets rolled 9 more times, but still, he knight can't drop it as he simply did not get one via the black market NPC yet
      • However, every time that happens, the black market NPC will increase the price he is willing to pay, each time by another 1,000 silver, so now the price he offers for the sword is 10.000 silver
      • At this price, a crafter, John Doe, is willing to sell the npc that sword
      • Now, that sword is "in stock", with amount 1
      • So the next time the Morgana Knight gets killed, and rolls the 10% drop chance for the sword, the sword will actually drop! It will say "crafted by John Doe"
      • A new buy order in the black market is created, seeking to replace the dropped sword, again, starting with the lowest possible price of 1,000 silver.
      • Now, in reality, the above logic does not just apply to the Knight dropping a particular sword, but to all mobs and all equipment items that can be dropped.
      I hope that helps.
    • Tycho schrieb:

      Lobram schrieb:

      tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      Currently some monsters and chests drop gear (armor and weapons). That gear is created by the server from nothing to give to the players. The developers want the gear that drops to be crafted by the players so they developed a system where a "black market" NPC will buy gear from players on a separate auction house. The gear that is bought by this "black market" NPC will then have a chance to drop on monsters where it currently does - the only difference is now the gear drops will be player crafted.
      Okay, I'm with you so far. If I'm understanding correctly, you can't just craft 100 hammers and sell them to the NPC without the demand to support it, correct? Will there be a list of items that the NPC is willing to buy? Basically what I'm asking is, if I craft 100 hammers, can I turn around and sell those to the black market instead of salvaging?
      No, that would not work.

      The amount of silver the black market NPC is willing to spend on the black market is capped, and essentially taken from the amount of silver that mob drops right now. So for example, if a mob now drops 100s, going forward, he might drop 80s instead but give 20s to the black market NPC to be used for loot purchases. So when you want to sell gear to the black market NPC, you will have to fight over your share of that silver in competition with all other players who sell to that NPC.

      In addition to that, the NPC will only want to buy items that are in demand. Demand for an item is only generated if the NPC drops, or wants to drop, that item. For example, if mob has a 0.5% chance to drop a certain hammer (as in your example), and that NPC gets killed 200 times, he would on average create a demand of just 1 for that hammer, priced at item value, meaning that he is willing to buy 1 hammer at price essentially equal to the amount of silver that you'd get for salvaging it. If he keeps creating more demand that is not being filled, eventually, he will increase the offer price for the hammer to 2x item value, then 3x item value, and so on, until his order gets filled by somebody.

      In very simple terms, to player crafted mob drop system allows some players, in competition with each other, to sell a strictly limited amount of items to the black market NPC at a price that is higher than the salvage value. Demand for these items (and hence, the maximum amount of silver injected through this) is strictly defined by how much PvE people are doing throughout the game world, in fact, it's a percentage of the silver that is being dropped by mobs.
    • Korn schrieb:

      tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      I'll try.
      General Explanation

      Imagine that the mobs that get killed in Albion Online every day need supplies of gear. The more mobs are killed, the more supplies they need. Supplies are bought via a black market NPC.

      Now, if a mob is in supply, when he gets killed, he has a chance to drop that gear.

      Super simplified example (not 100% accurate, but does get the point across)
      • A Morgana Knight has a chance of 10% to drop a sword.
      • However, the mobs do not have a sword in stock right now, as no player has sold them one on the black market recently
      • A player kills the knight. Chance has it that the sword drop gets rolled - i.e. the Morgana Knight wants to drop the sword, but he does not have one, so he can't drop it.
      • He sends word to his black market NPC and tells him to buy a sword
      • The black market NPC puts up a buy order for the sword at a low price, say, 1,000 silver
      • No player is willing to sell the sword at that price
      • The Morgana Knight gets 90 more times. The sword drop - 10% chance - gets rolled 9 more times, but still, he knight can't drop it as he simply did not get one via the black market NPC yet
      • However, every time that happens, the black market NPC will increase the price he is willing to pay, each time by another 1,000 silver, so now the price he offers for the sword is 10.000 silver
      • At this price, a crafter, John Doe, is willing to sell the npc that sword
      • Now, that sword is "in stock", with amount 1
      • So the next time the Morgana Knight gets killed, and rolls the 10% drop chance for the sword, the sword will actually drop! It will say "crafted by John Doe"
      • A new buy order in the black market is created, seeking to replace the dropped sword, again, starting with the lowest possible price of 1,000 silver.
      • Now, in reality, the above logic does not just apply to the Knight dropping a particular sword, but to all mobs and all equipment items that can be dropped.
      I hope that helps.
      Thats what I was looking for I didnt really understand how the price was determined! Thanks :)
    • Tycho schrieb:

      Lobram schrieb:

      tgx schrieb:

      can someone do a "Player Crafted Mob Drops for Idiots" explanation please
      Currently some monsters and chests drop gear (armor and weapons). That gear is created by the server from nothing to give to the players. The developers want the gear that drops to be crafted by the players so they developed a system where a "black market" NPC will buy gear from players on a separate auction house. The gear that is bought by this "black market" NPC will then have a chance to drop on monsters where it currently does - the only difference is now the gear drops will be player crafted.
      Okay, I'm with you so far. If I'm understanding correctly, you can't just craft 100 hammers and sell them to the NPC without the demand to support it, correct? Will there be a list of items that the NPC is willing to buy? Basically what I'm asking is, if I craft 100 hammers, can I turn around and sell those to the black market instead of salvaging?
      To my understanding you can put them on the "black market" auction house, but they won't be purchased until the NPC decides there is enough demand and is willing to pay your price.