Reputation System Changes

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  • Reputation System Changes

    Additional Statement in response to criticism of the reputation system

    Albion Online supports brutal, unrestricted PvP in the Outlands. These are more than 50% of the world.
    A result of the outlands ruleset is that these zones are very dangerous, and there is always a decent chance that better players or bigger groups will kill you while you are trying to get others. The red zones were created to mitigate this fact.

    The red zones are designed to discourage zerging and limit the amount of non-consensual ganking of peaceful players that can take place. Most types of PvP, however, are fully unrestricted in red zones:
    • If both players are flagged for PvP, they can kill each other without consequence
    • If you are flagged for PvP, and your target has negative reputation, you can kill him without consequence
    • If you are not flagged for PvP, you can kill all people who are flagged for PvP, again without consequence
    • You will only lose reputation if you are flagged for PvP, and kill a high reputation player who is not flagged for PvP. In other words, you only lose reputation if you are ganking peaceful, high reputation players. The reputation system allows this activity, but if you kill too many peaceful players in a short amount of time, you will suffer some consequences, in the form of not being allowed into certain cities, and, in the most extreme case, being banished to the Outlands.
    • The soft cap on killing peaceful players in the red zones leads to these zones being very active. Hence, as a PKer, you will always be able to find victims, and, as opposed to the Outlands, you will often find victims that are easy prey. The trade-off is that if your targets are peaceful, you have to pick them more carefully, as the number of kills you can do without consequence is limited.
    • The reputation system in red zones also heavily discourages "kill anyone on sight" zergs, as in group kills, each participant suffers the full reputation loss.
    • If we removed the reputation system from the red zones, what would happen is his: the zones would become less active. Solo or small scale PKers would no longer be able to find targets. Instead, "kill on sight zergs" would take over the red zones, making them similar in experience to the outlands.
    What some players do not understand is that you "cannot have your cake and eat it, too".
    You can either have a zone that encourages small scale PvP, and gives you opportunities to gank peaceful players, within limits. This is our red zone.

    Or you can have a zone where everyone can kill everyone without consequence, but then you have to live with the fact that you won't be able to find as many potential victims, and that you will live with the fact that bigger and better PK groups will gank you back. You have already indicated that these zones, which are more than 60% of the Albion world, are not what you want.
    You cannot have both: a zone where you can gank peaceful players but cannot in turn be ganked by stronger and larger player groups.
    For our red zones, we want to balance the reputation system in such a way that it leads to the maximum amount of PvP in the long term.

    As an analogy, think about a fishing ground, the gankers being the fishing boats and the fish being the peaceful players. If you want to maximize the number of fish you can catch in the long term, you need to moderate the amount of fish that you kill each year, otherwise, it won't be long until there are none left.

    This will happen if the PvP soft cap makes sure that the zones are very active and attractive for peaceful players but also allows for non-consensual ganking of peaceful players as a viable strategy, if used in moderation.

    If you do not want to be subject to this soft cap on ganking peaceful players, you can always venture to the Outlands, were PvP is fully unrestricted. But again, be prepared to live with the consequences.


    Old post announcing the changes


    Hi all,

    based on our own concerns about the reputation system and all the feedback received from the player base, we are considering to make the following changes to the reputation system:

    General Points
    • Allow players to flag blue or red no matter what their reputation is
    • Changing flag inside a PvP zone takes time (say, 60 seconds or so). Changing flag inside non-PvP zones and cities is instant.
    • Killing red flag players never causes reputation loss, even if their reputation level is positive
    • Killing blue flagged players causes reputation loss, but only if their reputation level is positive
    • You can grind back reputation, but only if you are flagged blue (and you can always flag blue, even if you have negative rep)
    • Negative reputation will still decay over time
    • The defensive PvP buff for high reputation players is only active when flagged blue
    Balancing
    • As before, killing a blue flagged player with neutral or better reputation will cost your reputation, and the more reputation the victim has, the more it will cost you.
    • Currently, glorious is hit at 20,000 reputation. A kill costs at most 400, so a glorious player suddenly turning evil would have would get at least 50 "free kills" (more likely, 100 free kills as the average victim won't be glorious) before turning neutral. This is too much "kill storage", so we'd increase the rep loss per kill but at the same time increase the rep gain rate and daily decay as an off-set. The result of that it the overall balance remains the same, but you have less kills "stored" when being glorious etc.
    • In general, the higher your reputation is, the more difficult it will be to gain more reputation. The lower your reputation is, the easier it becomes. This means that if you want to remain at a stable reputation level in the long term, this is much easier to do if you are villainous than if you are glorious. A side effect of this is that getting up to glorious now takes longer, and would be a true achievement once you get it. By way of example: A glorious player might need 10 hours to neutralize the rep loss he got from killing a noble player. A nefarious player might be able to grind back the same rep loss in just 1 hour. The impact is that - assuming the same amount of grind time per day - a nefarious player could do 10 times as many kills as a glorious player without falling down in reputation. Key result of this is that in general, being glorious instills trust, as it means that while you *could* in theory score skills, in practice, it is something that you rarely do, cause if you would, you wouldn't be glorious.
    Game Impact
    • Consensual PvP is now possible without penalties, as you can freely flag red and back to blue, without reputation loss and no matter what your reputation level is.
    • For those of you who have been with us for a long time, the gameplay would become similar to how it was before the reputation system, i.e. with your flagging strategy being an important strategic choice. Most importantly, flagging red means you can score "opportunistic kills" against blues, while flagging blue means that other blues can't score "opportunistic kills" against you, and of course, being flagged blue while having high rep means that people who kill you will suffer a rep loss.
    • The key difference (to the pre-reputation system era) is that killing high reputation blues repeatedly will mean that you have to live with the consequences of being temporarily excluded from green cities, and even red cities if your reputation goes too low.
    • As you can now always flag blue, even if you have low reputation, it means that you can grind back reputation more consistently. In the current system, if as you are perma-red, if you want to grind back reputation and blues attack you, and you fight back, you will lose even more reputation, meaning that you might be stuck at a low reputation level.
    We are looking forward to your feedback.
  • @Korn Perhaps there is room to add a special skill if you reach a threshold (like top or bottom titles)

    To the top end positive characters you give a defensive buff set, to the top end negative characters you give an attack buff set, all around a long cooldown skill

    Positive Character gets:
    - Defensive buff % across all armor pieces
    - 1 or 2 Knights Npc spawning to help with a fraction of the skills/hp... related to the character they are helping

    Negative Character gets:
    - Attack buff % across all armor pieces
    - 1 or 2 Assassins Npc spawning to help with a fraction of the skills/hp... related to the character they are helping

    Point: Push people to maintain their status if worth to them, give a reward if they want to be on the good or bad side as a long term playstyle

    Doesn't need to feel real, they could be summoned spirits of knights or assassins, with some kind of ghostly glow (D3 type tombs mobs)
  • Sounds good to me, these changes would also prevent the lynch mobs the moment a negative reputation player would show his face in a yellow zone, since you would be able to flag to blue. Coupled with not losing rep when killing other red flagged players.


    However I am thinking if this might have any unforeseen side effect I cannot think any right now though.

    I if understand correctly you do not lose rep anymore if flagging?
    If not then what about groups killing groups? lets say that a 5 man group of blue flagged players with high rep is gathering or doing a dungeon, or whatever.
    Groups kills the blue flagged players, sustains quite a huge loss in rep, and have to grind out rep, what would be the estimate of grinding back rep? I could imagine that more pvp centered player would not want to grind a day long to get rep back?

    Additionally, I noticed that there is basically 1 red city? I cannot seem to find any other red cities. Perhaps adding some small red zone outposts where infamous+ players can do some basic repairs and travel to their personal islands?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Sadetius ().

  • Sadetius wrote:

    Sounds good to me, these changes would also prevent the lynch mobs the moment a negative reputation player would show his face in a yellow zone, since you would be able to flag to blue. Coupled with not losing rep when killing other red flagged players.


    However I am thinking if this might have any unforeseen side effect I cannot think any right now though.

    I if understand correctly you do not lose rep anymore if flagging?
    If not then what about groups killing groups? lets say that a 5 man group of blue flagged players with high rep is gathering or doing a dungeon, or whatever.
    Groups kills the blue flagged players, sustains quite a huge loss in rep, and have to grind out rep, what would be the estimate of grinding back rep? I could imagine that more pvp centered player would not want to grind a day long to get rep back?
    As I understand REP system itself will be just a cosmetic and defensive in PVP(against criminals) for guys who has high ++ reputation.

    So basicaly if up to PVP u so simple do it without any stress anymore
  • Dragis wrote:

    Sadetius wrote:

    Sounds good to me, these changes would also prevent the lynch mobs the moment a negative reputation player would show his face in a yellow zone, since you would be able to flag to blue. Coupled with not losing rep when killing other red flagged players.


    However I am thinking if this might have any unforeseen side effect I cannot think any right now though.

    I if understand correctly you do not lose rep anymore if flagging?
    If not then what about groups killing groups? lets say that a 5 man group of blue flagged players with high rep is gathering or doing a dungeon, or whatever.
    Groups kills the blue flagged players, sustains quite a huge loss in rep, and have to grind out rep, what would be the estimate of grinding back rep? I could imagine that more pvp centered player would not want to grind a day long to get rep back?
    As I understand REP system itself will be just a cosmetic and defensive in PVP(against criminals) for guys who has high ++ reputation.
    So basicaly if up to PVP u so simple do it without any stress anymore
    I think it might also help bandit players as well, as it will take longer before their rep reaches problematic levels?
  • These changes are a great step in the right direction, a couple buddies and I would have to take breaks from the game because our rep would get to low we couldn't go into cities to get gear so these changes will be really nice.

    On another note I'm not sure when the local thing was introduced where you're able to see people currently flagged but my question is, why show flagged people in red zones? Why if you are going to show the amount of people at all, show everyone as I find this type of system doesn't do away with what I think you were trying to do which is help someone make a decision like :

    "Oh my god 10 hostiles in local let me go elsewhere with my whatever it may be."

    All it does is make people not flag up so they can stay hidden. This is especially relevant for larger groups 5+. It may be hard to imagine but larger groups don't all flag up when they go into red zones. Now I'm not sure if this is the intended purpose and sure this can be said to be some cool meta stuff but in practice its really quite lame.

    Korn wrote:

    Changing flag inside a PvP zone takes time (say, 60 seconds or so). Changing flag inside non-PvP zones and cities is instant.
    This might help a lot I really hope something like this goes in as It might change things up and help the small group play. I look forward to seeing what changes are made.
  • Awesome changes! Really glad to see you guys looking over the system. I do belive we need some system like this and I like the concept of it in the royal lands, but it has had its flaws if we are going to consider this a hardcore pvp game. These changes feels like a good balance!

    How soon can we expect these changes to come to our soon to be even more awesome game? :)
    Blood to the blood god!

    -:- G R I E F -:-
  • TheNoseKnows wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    spindrift wrote:

    or just remove Rep entirely and the world will rejoice.
    That's what the outlands are already!
    The outlands are for zerg guilds. Why are you telling the PVPers to join a 500+ man alliance if they want to PVP?
    Strawman, that's not what he's saying.. He's saying that rep doesn't apply to outlands so if you don't want or like the rep system got here.