The Elephant in the Room: Expeditions.

  • Bercilak wrote:

    Ive played in various guilds in Albion. And even in bigger guilds there are times during the day where you wont find people doing a dungeon with you. We believe that its important for the overall experience to have a few experiences which you can do alone without the help of a setup group.

    And every decent guild will go into open world activities anyway, since the rewards are so much better. We are aware that getting people into the open world of Albion is crucial for the game thats why we made so many changes to it. And we even have a few more interesting ideas coming.

    Kind regards,
    Stefan
    This has no bearing or relation at all to the issue I experience where my friend even while being enough people online, chose to do expedition content over and over instead of going out into the open world.
  • Jonathan_Silverblood wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    @Jonathan_Silverblood in the current test, we are seeing significantly more open world activity than in any previous test. Expeditions are balanced in such a way that they are clearly worse than open world play.

    So the people who are doing expeditions are often doing so because they - at that moment - do not have the time or organisation to play open world instead. This does not mean that they never play open world. You'll have many people who during the week might have time to run 1 expedition per day, but over the course of the weekend, will be doing lots of open world play.

    Without expeditions, these players couldn't play Albion during the week at all, meaning they'd likely quit, which cannot be good for anybody, in particular given that the game economy really relies on a player activity.
    Something isn't right here. For weeks now people I've talked with about exepeditions are all saying that they'd rather have the safe income from expeditions than going out in the open world since the open world is so contested. The -20% or so that expeditions have aren't a functioning deterrent for them. Doing an expedition a day or maybe two every now and then, is no big deal. But I'm seeing plenty of people doing 5-6 expeditions in a row and then logging out.
    There is relative and absolute frequency.
    • You can have 10 people playing, all of them doing open world, i.e. 100% open world.
    • Or you can have 20 people playing, 8 of them doing expeditions and 12 doing open world. Now that's only 60% open world in relative terms, but still 20% more open world players in absolute terms compared to the first scenario.
    As stated, balance wise, if you do you have the time and organisation to play open world, it's always much better than doing expeditions. So almost all people who run expeditions are doing so because for whatever reason, doing open world right in that moment is not feasible for them. If you take that away, they won't magically play open world, but most likely just quit the game for the day, or for good. Now if you say "ok, then let them quit, they are not supposed to play Albion anyways" the reason why that's wrong is that - as stated above - most of these players do also play open world content, regularly, but just not 100% of the time they are online.
  • Korn wrote:

    Jonathan_Silverblood wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    @Jonathan_Silverblood in the current test, we are seeing significantly more open world activity than in any previous test. Expeditions are balanced in such a way that they are clearly worse than open world play.

    So the people who are doing expeditions are often doing so because they - at that moment - do not have the time or organisation to play open world instead. This does not mean that they never play open world. You'll have many people who during the week might have time to run 1 expedition per day, but over the course of the weekend, will be doing lots of open world play.

    Without expeditions, these players couldn't play Albion during the week at all, meaning they'd likely quit, which cannot be good for anybody, in particular given that the game economy really relies on a player activity.
    Something isn't right here. For weeks now people I've talked with about exepeditions are all saying that they'd rather have the safe income from expeditions than going out in the open world since the open world is so contested. The -20% or so that expeditions have aren't a functioning deterrent for them. Doing an expedition a day or maybe two every now and then, is no big deal. But I'm seeing plenty of people doing 5-6 expeditions in a row and then logging out.
    There is relative and absolute frequency.
    • You can have 10 people playing, all of them doing open world, i.e. 100% open world.
    • Or you can have 20 people playing, 8 of them doing expeditions and 12 doing open world. Now that's only 60% open world in relative terms, but still 20% more open world players in absolute terms compared to the first scenario.
    As stated, balance wise, if you do you have the time and organisation to play open world, it's always much better than doing expeditions. So almost all people who run expeditions are doing so because for whatever reason, doing open world right in that moment is not feasible for them. If you take that away, they won't magically play open world, but most likely just quit the game for the day, or for good. Now if you say "ok, then let them quit, they are not supposed to play Albion anyways" the reason why that's wrong is that - as stated above - most of these players do also play open world content, regularly, but just not 100% of the time they are online.
    which is why I said "do something" instead of "remove it altogether". People are, during primetime (when there's lost of people out, lots of PvP happening in red, and gatherers are flattening half of all the nodes in yellow), choosing to do expeditions since the alternative isn't (in their view) better.

    Now, lets look at your criteria:

    do we have time?
    well, since they are doing 2-5 expeditions in a row at times, I'm gonna say yes.

    do we have organization?
    well, since they are going 3-5 people who know eachother and we do have spare gear provided to them for free, I would say yes.

    But please do clarify what kind of time and what kind of organization you consider a requirement for the following:

    0) open world boss hunt in yellow/red
    1) green dungeon in yellow
    2) blue dungeon in yellow
    3) famefarm outside blue dungeon in yellow
    4-6) same as 1-3 but in red
    7-9) same as 1-3 but in lower outlands
    10) gather in red
    11) hunting gatheres in red
    12) contesting a chest in yellow
    13) contesting a chest in red
    14) looking for fair PvP fights in red

    ... and the list of open-world content goes on.

    I know we can't go run a hellgate unless we're at least 4-5 decently geared people with spare gear ready in case we fail, but all those other things we could do - why do I see people saying things like "I'm not gonna walk two zones out only to find several bigger groups already camping the bosses, I'll just do another expedition"?
  • Korn wrote:

    Jonathan_Silverblood wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    @Jonathan_Silverblood in the current test, we are seeing significantly more open world activity than in any previous test. Expeditions are balanced in such a way that they are clearly worse than open world play.

    So the people who are doing expeditions are often doing so because they - at that moment - do not have the time or organisation to play open world instead. This does not mean that they never play open world. You'll have many people who during the week might have time to run 1 expedition per day, but over the course of the weekend, will be doing lots of open world play.

    Without expeditions, these players couldn't play Albion during the week at all, meaning they'd likely quit, which cannot be good for anybody, in particular given that the game economy really relies on a player activity.
    Something isn't right here. For weeks now people I've talked with about exepeditions are all saying that they'd rather have the safe income from expeditions than going out in the open world since the open world is so contested. The -20% or so that expeditions have aren't a functioning deterrent for them. Doing an expedition a day or maybe two every now and then, is no big deal. But I'm seeing plenty of people doing 5-6 expeditions in a row and then logging out.
    There is relative and absolute frequency.
    • You can have 10 people playing, all of them doing open world, i.e. 100% open world.
    • Or you can have 20 people playing, 8 of them doing expeditions and 12 doing open world. Now that's only 60% open world in relative terms, but still 20% more open world players in absolute terms compared to the first scenario.
    As stated, balance wise, if you do you have the time and organisation to play open world, it's always much better than doing expeditions. So almost all people who run expeditions are doing so because for whatever reason, doing open world right in that moment is not feasible for them. If you take that away, they won't magically play open world, but most likely just quit the game for the day, or for good. Now if you say "ok, then let them quit, they are not supposed to play Albion anyways" the reason why that's wrong is that - as stated above - most of these players do also play open world content, regularly, but just not 100% of the time they are online.
    Korn is justifying expeditions because its another way to get more people to log into the game. What he and the other people that look at this data do not realize is that this type of player, someone who only has 30 minutes of game time to play, has nothing to offer to and for the sandbox. They will keep doing this until the next game comes out and then they will never log back in. A mechanic that is designed for people ot log in, run 2 or 3, then log out does NOT help the game in any shape or form. It does help game population numbers and statistics to fool investors however. Which is what Korn and the rest of the developers are trying to capitalize on. Its a way to for them to stat pad subs when the game releases.

    How does it help you as a sandbox player if I log in, run two expeditions, and log out. I didnt buy anything. I didnt lose anything, I gained some silver from a magical place that completely separate from the open world. It doesnt. These players will just quit the game. If they do not go out into the open world and just farm expeditions what do you think the actual chances of them ever venturing out are? A very small % will find a guild and move on, but the majority players that Korn is trying to defend will just quit the game.

    Fact is this casual player will ALWAYS leave for the next FoTM MMO anyways. So when you make an entire mechanic based around the casual player who only has 30 minutes to play you are just dumbing your game down for a player that would never stay anyway. The very meaning of short term gain for long term pain.

    This is a cash grab mechanic plain and simple. Why would you design a sandbox game but want the casual player? Design a different game. AO is not for casuals. Look at the skill tree. Look at the fame and time it takes to get to T8. THIS IS NOT A CASUAL GAME.
    The True Victor.

    Make Albion Great Again!
  • Roor wrote:

    Korn is justifying expeditions because its another way to get more people to log into the game. What he and the other people that look at this data do not realize is that this type of player, someone who only has 30 minutes of game time to play, has nothing to offer to and for the sandbox. They will keep doing this until the next game comes out and then they will never log back in. A mechanic that is designed for people ot log in, run 2 or 3, then log out does NOT help the game in any shape or form. It does help game population numbers and statistics to fool investors however. Which is what Korn and the rest of the developers are trying to capitalize on. Its a way to for them to stat pad subs when the game releases.
    How does it help you as a sandbox player if I log in, run two expeditions, and log out. I didnt buy anything. I didnt lose anything, I gained some silver from a magical place that completely separate from the open world. It doesnt. These players will just quit the game. If they do not go out into the open world and just farm expeditions what do you think the actual chances of them ever venturing out are? A very small % will find a guild and move on, but the majority players that Korn is trying to defend will just quit the game.

    Fact is this casual player will ALWAYS leave for the next FoTM MMO anyways. So when you make an entire mechanic based around the casual player who only has 30 minutes to play you are just dumbing your game down for a player that would never stay anyway. The very meaning of short term gain for long term pain.

    This is a cash grab mechanic plain and simple. Why would you design a sandbox game but want the casual player? Design a different game. AO is not for casuals. Look at the skill tree. Look at the fame and time it takes to get to T8. THIS IS NOT A CASUAL GAME.
    Im really unsure half the time if you are just trolling or what.
    One day you will have a life, maybe a wife, and kids. When that day happens let me know how easy it is for you to play 9 hours a day.

    Any game can be for casuals, but the main reason I left games like Wow (like I dunno 15 years ago now) and other similar MMOs is because of the soul destroying, life sucking, anti-social, need to be online for hours and hours and hours, Having to block out 4 hours minimum to go on a raid to even hope to get a random drop (and then you would have to run it like 15 times to get the actual drop you need). No, this kind of gameplay is great for 15 year olds because they have all day long to play. The average age of gamers these days is in the 30's. That means people with careers, and children. That means, like it or not, CASUAL PLAYERS are your target demographic, and the largest part of the market share.

    You complain on one hand about the lack of players in the open world, then argue that anything that brings more people to the game in any manner that might go out in the open world is bad. The contradiction is what makes me Wonder if you are trolling or not, because the lack of foresight or any kind of analytic thought process on your argument is....shortsighted, or deliberate trolling.

    Of course some people will leave, because, thats what people do. As every other game in the history of games.

    As a CASUAL PLAYER myself, I have considered moving to another game. Why? First thing is because the community here is beligerent. Second thing, is that for me, I want more story depth, different character progression, and different game play style. It has zero to do with expéditions, actually expéditions are keeping me here at the moment, because if I couldn't log in for 30 minutes to an hour and just do Something other than spinning my horse in town and dueling....I would have left already.

    You are arguing a point of view that you simply don't have perspective on to be able to argue against.
  • Snorri wrote:

    As a CASUAL PLAYER myself, I have considered moving to another game. Why? [...] It has zero to do with expéditions, actually expéditions are keeping me here at the moment, because if I couldn't log in for 30 minutes to an hour and just do Something other than spinning my horse in town and dueling....I would have left already.
    Would you say that your time in the game is enjoyable and bringing value to the game at large?

    Reason I ask, is because spinning your horse and dueling seems to add just about as much gameplay value to others in the community, if not more, and you're currently doing expeditions instead. If you have 30 minutes, why not run one of the very short open-world dungeons? Why not gather some, craft a bit, trade on the market, ferry some goods, explore for open-world random chests and bosses or do any other of the multitude of things you have at your disposal that you can do in about 30 minutes?
  • I do gather. I spent all the last betas, and alphas testing gathering. I've had enough gathering, I want to try out combat. So I do HG's when I can get a group in my guild and have time.
    I gather, I craft, and I sell that stuff and use it to replace my stuff I lose.
    I go out and PK in the red zones. I do a castle run, some camlan runs etc, but these all take time, and require other people to be involved that I can trust enough to not kick me from group and kill me for my gear, or that I know enough to do combat with that I know don't just suck or wont run and leave me to die.

    But why should I have to contribute anything to you or others? I play for me, not for you. Or do you propose paying my subscriptions, or for my gold to run premium? How I make that money is pretty much no concern to you.

    You see the game play style here is that you cant just join a group of unknowns and go to black zones, you are likely to just get griefed for your gear by the very people you were invited to roll around with.
    Because of the game system, as a casual player, you are left with very few options other than stay in blue/yellow zones for progression. Venturing further out than that as a casual, with people you don't know is....risky at best, and plain dumb as hell at worst. That is the game mechanics that cause that situation, and expéditions are about the only solution to that issue.

    And THAT is the elephant in the room.
  • @Bercilak

    The Expeditions are fine, but i dont agree with your conclusion that its much better to skill up somewhere else, and i think you are vastly underestimating several factors.

    Our guild only grinds fame in expeditions, and totally quit normal pve after the first week for several reasons.

    The fame is in no way bad, in fact the fame over time is only surpassed by solo farming as a caster in very few zones.

    Sure you can get a good group, enter a blue dungeon and get a bit higher fame for a hour or 4.

    But expeditions are riskless, dont require any real gearlevel and its non stop uninteruptet fame with no travel etc.
    Fame over a week in expeditions will vastly outshine fame over a week in blue dungeons for 99% of the playerbase.

    Make .3 gear, with druid cowls and you go below the 10 minute mark. We do it in .2 gear and around 11 minutes pr run.
    Nothing competes with that over time because noone can interrupt you, there is no travel, no downtime and groups are formed immediatly.
    In bursts dungeons give more, but not over time.

    I dont get your "every decent guild"statement at all, Because its simply not worth it after week one.

    Now i dont mind you keeping it, exceptnof course getting tired of the repetetive nature of doing countless expeditions. But in primetime farming expeditions will be best for 99% of the guilds.

    but for fame over time you are wrong. We havent been in a group dungeon for 3 weeks now, and no plans of stepping into one.

    I have massive respect for you so its not meant in a generally negative way, but this time you are simply wrong.

    For clarity i think you have made a million brilliant decisions, and only a few wrong like:

    -Hellgate loot.
    -Siege timezone system
    -Expedition gain vs open world.
    -Farm/alch/cooking progression
    -underestimating players inate drive towards safety
    -Outland npc cities.
    --wavering in solutions regarding green, yellow, red , black trying to cater to everyone - eventually catering to noone.

    Written with the best intentions, as i am a big fan of the game and what you are trying to achieve.

    But remember that birds are being pushed out of the nest by mom and dad for a reason.

    /Frank
  • Ok so INSTEAD creating more and more PVE repetitive stuff which leads to degradation deprogresion and sheeps gets bored because of lack PVP expierence or else the lack of givin fast fun.

    Suggestion which i thought couple week ago.
    Did picture in ~5min with a paint. Picture taken from Beta2 map dungeon (google)
    Whole idea just let those "Carebear" "Casuals" or whatever u call it newcomers which prefer PVE instead of PVP but than they have atleast try'ed and felt in most savest/fastest way maybe later on they become world changers of Albion
    Basic simple concept - Expedition linked as HG, but without gear loss, can be done daily with choosen diffrent gear.
    Gear hard caped to that lvl.

    Conclusion: this can be done for 1v1 and 5v5. This is your ARENA, this is expedition which dont train more sheeps but gives progressivnes for newbs....
  • @Snorri if you're out doing stuff as often as you make it sound, then it's all good. An expedition here and an expedition there is no big deal, if they keeps your boat floating and you're enjoying the rest of the game as well, then good for you. Also, I want to make it clear that I'm not saying you're obligated to make the world better for the rest of us, but the devs position on the matter is that they think everyone is like you: an expedition here, and expedition there, and the rest of the time actually are making the rest of the game more enjoyable for others.

    From your perspective, would a cooldown between expeditions, or a daily limit on expeditions, or some other mechanic that prevents people from spending more than 2 hours a day in them, be harmful to that which keeps you around? Do you have any opinions or suggestions that could make expeditions better for those that need a secure content for some casual gameplay an hour or so a day, for the days when group-content just won't work out otherwise?
  • Dragis wrote:

    Ok so INSTEAD creating more and more PVE repetitive stuff which leads to degradation deprogresion and sheeps gets bored because of lack PVP expierence or else the lack of givin fast fun.

    Suggestion which i thought couple week ago.
    Did picture in ~5min with a paint. Picture taken from Beta2 map dungeon (google)
    Whole idea just let those "Carebear" "Casuals" or whatever u call it newcomers which prefer PVE instead of PVP but than they have atleast try'ed and felt in most savest/fastest way maybe later on they become world changers of Albion
    Basic simple concept - Expedition linked as HG, but without gear loss, can be done daily with choosen diffrent gear.
    Gear hard caped to that lvl.

    Conclusion: this can be done for 1v1 and 5v5. This is your ARENA, this is expedition which dont train more sheeps but gives progressivnes for newbs....
    This is nice idea. I have also thought that there could be also PvP expeditions. My suggestion was more like open world related and its here: PvP expeditions , but this yours seems quite interesting. It definetly encourages people to try out PvP and i really like that part.
  • Expeditions are an unimaginative solution to a lack of creativity. Any use of them is just lazy bs. This solo artist now understands why all of the hate has been directed to solo and casual players. Seriously. Can't even bother to leave town and play the game. Thanks for the lack of dungeons and enjoyable pve. I am so glad SI that you spent time on this garbage instead of making pve great.


    P.S. any system that even the Devs say IS NOT WOTH DOING was certainly not worth making.
  • Snorri wrote:

    But why should I have to contribute anything to you or others? I play for me, not for you.
    You want to contribute to others because this is an MMO not a single player game... This game is built on social interactions, group play and working together.

    Its this kind of mindset that causes the Devs to go and create an expedition because people don't want to be social, they don't want to make friends or find the time to make a group and go play together.

    If you don't have time to play this game, then go play some other game that caters to your needs. Not every game has to fit the casual play style. This game was surely not one that I thought would fall to it with their hard focus on PVP...guess I was wrong.

    Expeditions are just the start. From here more features will be added for casual play that will continue to water down the experience of this game.
  • Raithe wrote:

    Expeditions are an unimaginative solution to a lack of creativity. Any use of them is just lazy bs. This solo artist now understands why all of the hate has been directed to solo and casual players. Seriously. Can't even bother to leave town and play the game. Thanks for the lack of dungeons and enjoyable pve. I am so glad SI that you spent time on this garbage instead of making pve great.


    P.S. any system that even the Devs say IS NOT WOTH DOING was certainly not worth making.
    Seriously - what is there 'in the world'?
    A boring square 1 lvl dungeon packed with 30+ other players?
    I'm fuckin thrilled for this glorious adventure....
    'Cacatio Matutina Est Tamquam Medicina'
    X/
  • Jbirdx90 wrote:

    Snorri wrote:

    But why should I have to contribute anything to you or others? I play for me, not for you.
    You want to contribute to others because this is an MMO not a single player game... This game is built on social interactions, group play and working together.
    Its this kind of mindset that causes the Devs to go and create an expedition because people don't want to be social, they don't want to make friends or find the time to make a group and go play together.

    If you don't have time to play this game, then go play some other game that caters to your needs. Not every game has to fit the casual play style. This game was surely not one that I thought would fall to it with their hard focus on PVP...guess I was wrong.

    Expeditions are just the start. From here more features will be added for casual play that will continue to water down the experience of this game.
    I like the way you took that entirely out of context.
    No, I do not need to contribute to you. In any way, if I don't wish to.
    Last I checked, I didn't need your permission to play any game I damn well please, as often or as little as I like. I will decide what game is or isn't for me.

    All of what you describe in your authoratative post, is catered to in expéditions.
    It requires 5 people to do it - group play - check. Working together - check, social interactions - check. Whether I choose to interact or not is not up to you, or the mechanics in play. We can be 5 strangers that don't say a word, or we can be social and interact neither should be a requisite for play in any gaming environment. I can also behave the same way in an open world pick up group, or a guild. Maybe I can't talk on discord because my kid, or my room mate, is asleep and I don't want to disturb them. Maybe I don't have a mic. Maybe I am mute and my tongue is missing. Like, what is your point? People can do what they want, it is your expectations that need to change, it seems.

    I have had expériences in expéditions where we joked around and did stupid stuff, and I have had ones where I got kicked because people simply didnt like the guild I belong to. Both are identical to expériences you will get when you are just trying to find a group to join, or a guild you like.

    Maybe it is you that needs to check other games? Go play a survival game if you want 24/7 full loot pvp rape, then obviously this game isn't for you.... but I digress, its not up to me to make your décisions for you. They have a hard focus on pvp, they have simply segregated it to black zones but most people are too chicken to go stay in black zones and the black zones are dead - this means majority of the population are looking to mitigate gear loss - contrary to your comments.
  • Welp here we are a month into the game and the chinese/russian gold farmers are literally bot training the expeditions.

    Chinese gold farmers are abusing this system by the minute. You can see the bot trains coming out of the expeditions and repairing. They all have the same deaths from the same NPCs.

    But everyone here was right...silver from expeditions is so small botting wont matter. You know what we should do. Add some more instancing. This is not a problem. We should continue the course as is. Everything is fine.

    TFW you call something, no one listens and you watch the world burn as you predicted.
    The True Victor.

    Make Albion Great Again!