Balance Skinning for GALAHAD

  • Balance Skinning for GALAHAD

    Dear Devs,

    **Before reading, yes i have considered the combat fame gained from skinning in comparison to no combat fame gained by chopping trees or mining ore, although this fame gained by skinners is also gained by miners/lumberjacks when they kill tree/ore creatures and gather from the corpse after, they also gain combat fame when killing a creature that is near a tree/ore they need to collect, ALSO, this combat fame gained is very small in proportion to combat fame from a dungeon run that lumberjacks/miners can do with the time they saved from their trait being unbalanced**


    It has come to my concern that the skinning trait is unbalanced in comparison to other gathering traits like woodcutting or mining. I've found progressing in skinning is much slower/harder than others. Although my experience is limited to only the tier 3 & 4 levels of skinning. So... the contents of this thread may be irrelevant. X/

    This problem is due to:
    1. The player/skinner having to first kill a skinnable creature in order to be able to obtain fame/material in the skinning trait. Often after killing the creature, the player is left with a bleed condition (Example: cougars) and must wait until this bleed expires to be able to gather skin. :cursing:

    2. Skinnable creatures being scarce in comparison to a tree or ore, (except in desert biome) and often creatures only have a portion of the resource available upon death (Example: a T3 creature has only 4/12 skin/hide available after death)

    3. Obtaining resource from a dead creature is not exclusive to skinning. (Example: ore monsters)

    4. The fame gained for skinning is equivalent to the fame gained for other gathering traits. (Like chopping a tree) ?( ?( ?(

    Example: A player must first spend 15-30 seconds killing a creature, (assuming they've found a skinnable one) ONLY then are they able to obtain fame and materials for the skinning trait. Whereas a miner only has to walk up to an ore mound (which are plentiful; especially in snow biomes) and can immediately obtain fame and minerals for mining. Additionally, several ore mounds or resource nodes are clustered together AND there are even ore creatures! (same goes for other gathering traits).

    This means the ONLY method for skinning is from a dead skinnable creature, whereas other traits can gather instantly from various sources AND from dead resource creatures of that specific trait.

    I've observed that some compensation has been introduced; specifically in the tier 4 usable knife tool requirement being 45k fame, where others (except stone hammer) are 59k fame. Although after tier 4, the fame requirement becomes the same as the other gathering tools (except stone hammer).

    With the huge (and impressive :thumbup: ) GALAHAD update coming march 13-15th, i believe this is a great time to balance this.

    My suggestions would be:
    1. Raise the fame gained from skinning a creature,
    2. Lower the fame requirement for tools throughout tiers 5-8 in addition to tier 4.
    3. Make it so: upon death a creature has the full amount of resource available.
    4. Raise the amount of gatherable resource from skinning a creature. (Example: from 12 skin/hide to 16 or 20)
    5. Be able to create 2 leather per 1 hide (when refining).
    6. Increase amount of skinnable creatures in a zone/biome.
    7. Create creatures whom are weak and take little effort to kill; and then skin.
    8. Create creatures with more gatherable skin than others. (Example: Bears = bigger than snakes = more skin)

    For clarity:
    PROBLEM: Skinning is unbalanced to other gathering traits.
    REASON: Equivalent fame increase for a harder/scarce gathering process.
    SOLUTION: My 8 suggestions.
    WHEN: GALAHAD
    P.S. Excuse my word "skinnable" i figured it would be the best word for the explanation.

    @Korn @Dagother

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Shmough: to reduce comments about combat fame gained by skinning ().

  • The fame values are still being adjusted so a bit premature to give feedback for now, but yes I would agree in principle that skinning should require slightly less fame than the other resources to level up (perhaps 75%)
    Winter Alpha test Character name - TRF
    Summer Alpha test Character name - Nytefury
    CBT - Nytefury
  • Nytefury wrote:

    The fame values are still being adjusted so a bit premature to give feedback for now, but yes I would agree in principle that skinning should require slightly less fame than the other resources to level up (perhaps 75%)
    I would hope more than a 25% reduction, since other traits can gather from a large amount of resource nodes and from resource creatures. Skinning only being able to be from creatures, it misses out on the much larger amount of fame/material from resource nodes.

    I would estimate resource nodes being 2.5x more valuable than resource creatures. 2x for the amount available in a zone, and 0.5x for the required deed of killing the creature first, not to mention waiting for the bleed to expire after.

    Therefore i would say a 50% reduction would be fair due to skinners also gaining a low amount of combat fame (this accounts for the remaining 12.5% difference for whoever did the math). Although i would rather see an increase in fame gained, so that requirements can remain a same determined amount for all types. so fame gained increased by 50%.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Shmough ().

  • Taters wrote:

    I think whats being ignored is the considerable combat fame a skinner would gain per hour compared to any other harvester.

    Not only are you collecting materials, you are tiering up.
    I was going to mention this but decided not to, this combat fame is unproportional to the amount gained in a dungeon. Sure the nature of the skinning trait is to kill first, but the combat fame gained may be undesired. Besides, if combat fame is an issue, the amount gained from skinning is very small. If a miner for example is concerned, then the time they saved from their resource being clustered together and on creatures may be spent in a dungeon where they can get a much larger amount of combat fame.
  • So our cloth gatherer was 4 times faster compared to leather gathering from scratch to t4. Thats includes refining and crafting sets. I can see how the time loss killing mobs is not fully wasted because you also generate fame towards your armor but it adds up and leather is by far the least liked ressource to gather.
  • I think you are forgetting the fame you get for killing the creatures.

    Someone just chopping trees gets way less fame than someone killing creatures and skinning them.

    And saying creatures are scarce is just not true. Have you tried looking for trees other than in forests? Then you would know what scarce is.

    So if you say that resources will be scarce at release due to the number of players farming them i think you are right. But i really don't think Skinning has any disadvantage.
  • Taters wrote:

    I think whats being ignored is the considerable combat fame a skinner would gain per hour compared to any other harvester.

    Not only are you collecting materials, you are tiering up.
    Not ignored, I just don't think the value of the combat makes up for the loss in resource farming. Don't get me wrong, it's not worth 0, which is why in my opinion I would say 75% of the fame required compared to the other resources to level up.

    It's just in practice farming mobs for resources is definitely not the preferred route, just take a look at the wood/ore elementals, if they were the preferred source of farming they would be heavily farmed, however they aren't. I only kill them when I have to to reach the next node. The resources they drop are a bonus, but definitely not the preferred way for a gatherer. From what I see from other gatherers they seem to share my preference to avoid them.
    Winter Alpha test Character name - TRF
    Summer Alpha test Character name - Nytefury
    CBT - Nytefury
  • Rozik wrote:

    I think you are forgetting the fame you get for killing the creatures.

    Someone just chopping trees gets way less fame than someone killing creatures and skinning them.

    And saying creatures are scarce is just not true. Have you tried looking for trees other than in forests? Then you would know what scarce is.

    So if you say that resources will be scarce at release due to the number of players farming them i think you are right. But i really don't think Skinning has any disadvantage.
    see edit at the top of post, between both **
  • I think that this is because the respawn rate of skinnable mob is very fast, about ~5 minutes while the respawn of another resource node is ~20 minutes
    and the amount of available skinnable mobs is higher than every other resource node at the same map.

    so you can skin non-stop, while if you are gathering another resource even if you are the only person on the map you will reach a point that you have to wait because the map is empty.
  • Skinning is indeed currently such a gather profession that if you choose it, theres no way you can have a 2ndary gather resource and stay competitive. The fame from killing the animals is minimal compared to dungeon running so that isnt a big plus.

    While we'r at the subject of gathering in general, I would like to ask that why is Steppe the best place for fiber? I mean theres several clusters of fiber on steppe maps that are 20+ nodes on 1 screen. Best iv found was 26 fiber nodes with in screen.

    Fiber is by far the easiest to gather due to resource placement on the current level design. Swamp biome is practically useless right now, cause:

    • Fiber = Steppe
    • Hide = Steppe
    • Wood = Forest
    • Stone = Highlands
    • Ore = Mountains
    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Officer of Nilfgaard (Haamu's party)
  • I dont like reductions at all i dont want the game any easier. I would balance this by making anything else a little bit harder to get. Cotten right now is just stupid how much there is. Leather is the worst ressource to gather in volume but there is a pro to this. Leather will cost more.
  • Nervontuxis wrote:

    While we'r at the subject of gathering in general, I would like to ask that why is Steppe the best place for fiber? I mean theres several clusters of fiber on steppe maps that are 20+ nodes on 1 screen. Best iv found was 26 fiber nodes with in screen.
    I haven't touched the gathering in galahad - but in current live maps, I'd say: "fiber in mountains > fiber in steppes" for a simple fact, that in mountains you can scout 95% of the possible spawns in like 1/4th of the time compared to steppes.
    But in general - you're right.
    gathering in swamps is the worst! (steppes with those fcking birds, which are faster then my direwolf and eat half his health-bar before resetting... aren't that easy, either)
    In the last test, i gathered my fiber exclusively in mountains for the first weeks, and I scored better fame/hour numbers then my mates in swamps/steppes.

    as for the topic:
    skinning has been the cancer of gathering for a while now.
    with new gathering-sets and some fitting abilities, it has been made a bit easier - but it's still in no relation to the usual gathering.
    killing mobs opens risks for PvP and overall increases time of gathering.
    I hope they can find a fix for it, since I can't seen to find any doable solution.
    (except: make them fight each-other and/or spawn dead animals?...dunno^^)


    Edit:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by ZaZii ().

  • Finale wrote:

    I dont like reductions at all i dont want the game any easier. I would balance this by making anything else a little bit harder to get. Cotten right now is just stupid how much there is. Leather is the worst ressource to gather in volume but there is a pro to this. Leather will cost more.
    Not necessarily asking for it easier, just that the time spent leveling each resource line is brought a little more in line, doesn't have to be exactly the same time wise but a little more inline with each other.

    Crafting is probably in a decent-ish spot, could be brought up slightly. It needed to come way down from the 25k resources required when server started just to get from T3 sword to T4 sword but it's a little more inline now.
    Winter Alpha test Character name - TRF
    Summer Alpha test Character name - Nytefury
    CBT - Nytefury
  • ZaZii wrote:

    Nervontuxis wrote:

    While we'r at the subject of gathering in general, I would like to ask that why is Steppe the best place for fiber? I mean theres several clusters of fiber on steppe maps that are 20+ nodes on 1 screen. Best iv found was 26 fiber nodes with in screen.
    I haven't touched the gathering in galahad - but in current live maps, I'd say: "fiber in mountains > fiber in steppes" for a simple fact, that in mountains you can scout 95% of the possible spawns in like 1/4th of the time compared to steppes.But in general - you're right.
    gathering in swamps is the worst! (steppes with those fcking birds, which are faster then my direwolf and eat half his health-bar before resetting... aren't that easy, either)
    In the last test, i gathered my fiber exclusively in mountains for the first weeks, and I scored better fame/hour numbers then my mates in swamps/steppes.

    as for the topic:
    skinning has been the cancer of gathering for a while now.
    with new gathering-sets and some fitting abilities, it has been made a bit easier - but it's still in no relation to the usual gathering.
    killing mobs opens risks for PvP and overall increases time of gathering.
    I hope they can find a fix for it, since I can't seen to find any doable solution.
    (except: make them fight each-other and/or spawn dead animals?...dunno^^)


    Edit:

    In Galahad thats not even worth mentioning as a hot spot for Fiber. In galahad there are spots where you have over 25 fiber nodes literally next to eachother, without any blockage. Generally you can easily find 18-20 nodes clusters but there are those even upto 26 i have seen. Worse part is that these clusters can be on the same map and really close by to each other. So in general I could say that on 1 steppe map you can easily have 3-4 x 18-26 clusters of fiber.
    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Officer of Nilfgaard (Haamu's party)
  • Nervontuxis wrote:

    ZaZii wrote:

    Nervontuxis wrote:

    While we'r at the subject of gathering in general, I would like to ask that why is Steppe the best place for fiber? I mean theres several clusters of fiber on steppe maps that are 20+ nodes on 1 screen. Best iv found was 26 fiber nodes with in screen.
    I haven't touched the gathering in galahad - but in current live maps, I'd say: "fiber in mountains > fiber in steppes" for a simple fact, that in mountains you can scout 95% of the possible spawns in like 1/4th of the time compared to steppes.But in general - you're right.gathering in swamps is the worst! (steppes with those fcking birds, which are faster then my direwolf and eat half his health-bar before resetting... aren't that easy, either)
    In the last test, i gathered my fiber exclusively in mountains for the first weeks, and I scored better fame/hour numbers then my mates in swamps/steppes.

    as for the topic:
    skinning has been the cancer of gathering for a while now.
    with new gathering-sets and some fitting abilities, it has been made a bit easier - but it's still in no relation to the usual gathering.
    killing mobs opens risks for PvP and overall increases time of gathering.
    I hope they can find a fix for it, since I can't seen to find any doable solution.
    (except: make them fight each-other and/or spawn dead animals?...dunno^^)


    Edit:

    In Galahad thats not even worth mentioning as a hot spot for Fiber. In galahad there are spots where you have over 25 fiber nodes literally next to eachother, without any blockage. Generally you can easily find 18-20 nodes clusters but there are those even upto 26 i have seen. Worse part is that these clusters can be on the same map and really close by to each other. So in general I could say that on 1 steppe map you can easily have 3-4 x 18-26 clusters of fiber.
    Unless you're refering to the gathering-hotspots as marked on the world/cluster-map, I have zero Idea of what you're talking about.
    Guess I'll have to check it out at some point soon - thx for the info
  • Has anyone at SBI thought of creating animal corpse nodes that spawn? Essentially a tree that has grown to maturity, or an ore node that pops up. Animal Corpse Nodes would be fully skin-able for T# leather. No need to kill the beast.

    Animal Corpse Node
    1. Would help balance the time it takes for grinding leather gatherer with other resources.
    2. Fully plausible that another creature would have killed a creature in a fight, or an unfortunate accident happened to the now dead animal thus producing it's corpse.
    3. Could generate fun confusion and/or unease surrounding potential pvp. Did someone kill this creature, or did it spawn this way?


    I've had many issues with the imbalance of leather gathering with other resources over the past few updates. It's frustrating...

    (I also know this should be posted in suggestions for new items...just felt like it could be attached to this thread)
  • Viant wrote:

    Has anyone at SBI thought of creating animal corpse nodes that spawn? Essentially a tree that has grown to maturity, or an ore node that pops up. Animal Corpse Nodes would be fully skin-able for T# leather. No need to kill the beast.

    Animal Corpse Node
    1. Would help balance the time it takes for grinding leather gatherer with other resources.
    2. Fully plausible that another creature would have killed a creature in a fight, or an unfortunate accident happened to the now dead animal thus producing it's corpse.
    3. Could generate fun confusion and/or unease surrounding potential pvp. Did someone kill this creature, or did it spawn this way?


    I've had many issues with the imbalance of leather gathering with other resources over the past few updates. It's frustrating...

    (I also know this should be posted in suggestions for new items...just felt like it could be attached to this thread)
    i had origionally posted this is suggestions but it was moved into the galahad tab for some od reason... i'm assuming some admin just read over the title and moved it without reading the details lol..