QoL change for black zone ZvZ

  • QoL change for black zone ZvZ

    The removal of groups showing on maps in all black zones does more to hinder ZvZ fighting than it does to help it.

    the idea of different red/black zones is great, and its good that the outlands are all black zones. the newer maps(since beta 1) feel like they are more open and do less to funnel everyone into certain spots, and with the more open maps it just seems harder to find big fights than it did in beta 1. maybe some middle ground could be met for showing black zone zergs, perhaps it doesnt show until you have a group of 15+ or it only shows in certain areas of the black zone(for example some exception for city plot zones or raid zones, not sure if they would need special exception but its a option)

    Beta 1 there were many times where a zerg spotted on the map would cause people to form up and go fight, while in beta 2(where all the outlands was black with no zerg markers on map) it felt more like fishing for fights, where most of the time was trying to find people just to have the fight.

    im not saying that simply putting the red zone mechanic into black zones is the perfect solution, i dont know what the perfect solution is but maybe someone else has a perfect idea for this. if you're in a group of 15+ running through black zones you are probably looking for fights, lets make it so people spend more time fighting and less time aimlessly running around hoping to find a fight.

  • I cant see why marking 10+ or 15+ players on the map in blackzones would be a bad idea.

    Its not funny to kill a player 20 v 1 in the long term. Its even less funny to be killed by such groups.

    Spotting em on the map would make people se them and gather help to contest them. Big intense fights are what people posts vids about all the time. It got to be more funny than zerging a single gatherer now and then.
    "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad"
    - Shigeru Miyamoto
  • Black zones never had groups showing on maps. Also, how exactly does the lack of minimap visibility hinder ZvZ fighting? In CBT1/SA15, it was precisely what happened when the feature was originally introduced. All it achieved was making it harder to beat larger groups while inside the smaller one yourself, due to the larger group knowing everything about you. No element of surprise, no flanks, no hiding away from ganks, no faking that you're the larger group or anything.

    Not just that, the whole feature is abused constantly to spot solo players making it actually even easier to hunt them down. It's irrelevant if you get ganked by 10 or 30 players, chances are you'll die anyways. What is relevant however, is that instead of having to dodge 30 players, you'd now have to dodge 3x 10 groups making it 3 times more likely to encounter a gank squad. Furthermore, gank squads will now be equipped with a maphack and there's nothing you'll be able to do about it it as a solo player.

    I don't disagree with the idea of putting more stuff into the game that functions as a magnet to larger groups, making the regions away from it typically safer. Can be those world bosses, extractors or anything else. But minimap visibility has no place in black zones, all it does is mess up the PvP. If you absolutely need a warning system for solos, then for the sake of the PvP's health, have a skull marker on top of the minimap indicating that there are lots of people in the cluster instead of displaying their real amount & location

    Also, an old post of mine with some examples on minimap visibility pre-implementation.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Snowman ().

  • @OneTyper I don't spend time in reds/yellows these days so I won't be able to give an appropriate answer regarding the current state of it in there, but chances are that it functions a lot better in those areas due to larger and more coordinated guilds sticking to the blacks. If we assume that I did live in reds/yellows, I would still do what I did in the past and roam right below the player limit hunting other players once I see them on the minimap. That was one of the reasons why outlands became fully black, as larger guilds would simply put abuse the feature.

    Anyways, somebody who spends majority of their time over in yellows/reds can give a more reliable answer how it functions there.

  • Snowman wrote:

    Black zones never had groups showing on maps.


    .....

    Also, an old post of mine with some examples on minimap visibility pre-implementation.
    yea some valid points, im not saying that the old red zone mechanic was perfect. and making solo people pop up was a issue.

    im only talking about situations where multiple groups are out looking for fights, and what i mean by hindering fights is now compared to CBT1. in CBT1 the black zones did alot more to funnel players into closer areas, where the red zones ere more open and had the map zerg show. the new maps are far more open in the black zones and without seeing zergs its not as easy to get fights. red zones around cities in CBT1 had lots of fights, and the spotting helped people find the fights.

  • OneTyper wrote:

    @Snowman, not sure it has made any sense what I have said :), I meant the actual behaviour of the system currently, any idea of the current player limit/distance/radius specs, is it just a single fixed rule/threshold? Anyone knows?
    Oh sorry, my bad. The current behaviour is as far as I know the same, except that the player limit is 10 instead of 5 during the implementation (Though it was quickly increased to 10, so it's been pretty much the same since SA15). As for the radius, I don't have any exact numbers/units to measure it with, but you can pretty much consider it that once you've got 10+ players within the radius of 2-3 screens, you'll pop up in the minimap.

    Grievance wrote:

    im only talking about situations where multiple groups are out looking for fights, and what i mean by hindering fights is now compared to CBT1. in CBT1 the black zones did alot more to funnel players into closer areas, where the red zones ere more open and had the map zerg show. the new maps are far more open in the black zones and without seeing zergs its not as easy to get fights. red zones around cities in CBT1 had lots of fights, and the spotting helped people find the fights.
    True, the maps have lot less chokepoints by comparison and personally I do think that CBT1 had it better on those grounds. But that's only a part reason, CBT1 did also have a better player density overall along with more hotspots than CBT2, which didn't have any at all. The upcoming test is going to be closer to CBT1 in those regards, so I wouldn't be too worried about that.

    Nevertheless, if it still is too hard to find a ZvZ fight, then I'd say all we have to do is drop in more objectives onto the field and have them be visible enough to attract groups over there.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Snowman ().

  • @Snowman Cool, so following what you have said, it's and always has been a fixed simple behaviour.

    Is there any common ground between your guild members / community in the past? is it a matter of making it more sophisticated or get rid of it completely?

    Would a more dynamic and sophisticated system using character builds/player number/eventual special skills in skillslots define dynamically the group noise rate in the world, and create opportunities for group builds? With their downsides to balance things, like a sneaking skill to use a skill slot to increase group discovery radius instead of defense, or a group skill that adds discovery double radius but has long cooldown and whatever devs might come up with? In other words, would the community like more complex strategies to calculate? Is there any interest to simulate more realistically armor/weapon/spells environmental noises to calculate this kind of map signals?

    @Korn @Bercilak is there any plan to improve/change/delete the grouping detection system on maps before release?

    The post was edited 3 times, last by OneTyper ().

  • OneTyper wrote:

    @Snowman Cool, so following what you have said, it's and always has been a fixed simple behaviour.

    Is there any common ground between your guild members / community in the past? is it a matter of making it more sophisticated or get rid of it completely?
    Lots of players from the PvP-oriented guilds agreed back in the day (i.e. vendetta, bc, finstack, nilfs..), and I would guess that those same players still do, but don't really care as we got our black zones these days. I do know some who were in the favour of the feature from the PvP guilds, but from those that I know personally those would be far fewer than the ones who are against it. In any case, whether or not people agreed with it or not, it was still abused constantly. Though I didn't even do it almost at all, the system would still hand my group free kills on a silver platter whenever we spotted a red dot near us even when we were not on the hunt.

    Before the system was implemented, we suggested an alternate system that would simply alert the player with an icon on top of the minimap, that the cluster has lots of players in it. That would've serve as a warning to any player that wasn't looking for a fight and give them time to turn back, take a more cautious route or hide.

    In any case, personally I don't care about the system because I don't have to live with it unlike in the past. Whoever lives in reds and yellows these days are free to suggest any modifications to it if they want to, because it's a feature aimed for them after all. And it's better that way too, simply because then there's a place for both smaller and larger groups with their own preferred rulesets in their own areas.

    EDIT: In response to your edit, if it's a red/yellow exclusive formula then it's something I shouldn't have any say in. But if you're asking whether it's something that I could live with in blacks, I'd lean towards no for anything that signals anything on the map. I personally prefer to find that there are players in the region in a more "natural" way i.e. sounds of fighting, dead monsters, destroyed gate entrance, etc something like that.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Snowman ().