Question towards DOTA & League players about balancing?

  • emiashiro wrote:

    Dota is balanced, best joke ever, really.
    What i'm reading here, really. Dota-zombies everywhere, why if that game so balanced, why LoL > Dota twice with popularity?
    Why in your "super balanced game" we can see 10+ heroes changes every patch? Because it's balanced?
    Why we can see just TONS of whine and community drops after last patch? Did you ever have 40 min Q in russia? I had it yersterday in DOTA2 , i waited game for 40min, for 40 in 3 regions, hello? Is thhis a popular game ? Why I should call this game balanced, if have RANDOM STUN, RANDOM MISS, and RANDOM abilities (chaos knight)? In balanced game you shouldn't have RANDOM, you knew it right?
    I know only 1 perfect balanced game it's a chess (but WHITE side OP anyways)
    p.s. TLDR: Dota never was balanced, not balanced not and never will be balanced. It's imbalanced game, that's why you can pick every hero, do whatever you want and buy whatever you want.
    you waited 40 mins cause you are in low prio or looking for some noob gamemode like passive coop bots. End of story, average time it takes me to get a game in 1 region only search is 3 minutes.
    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Officer of Nilfgaard (Haamu's party)
  • Balance isn't just all about heroes/champions. Many things affect to balancing.
    Map layout is one thing. If you have seen in dota map has changed quite bit and it have affected to picked heroes. Junglers are played less due to changes for example. You can convert this to albion aswell. Last beta there was more choke points so some weapons were more effective, like glacial. Now maps are so open areas so mostly mobility-builds shine more.
    Other thing that affects balance is items. If some item is bit stronger then heroes/champions that benefits more of that item is picked more. Like in last beta in albion leather chest with haste was stronger than other chest, many builds were made around it.
    Hero balance is affected by these and other small things. Heroes that benefits more from these things are often picked more. Though when some heroes are picked they often have some counter-heroes. If these counters are strong enough in meta they will be picked aswell.
    More you can cycle heroes with this system, more balanced the game is
  • @Bercilak
    Hey, I asked my friend who happens to be ranked Master on multiple accounts in League of Legends to answer your questions.

    He answered me in german but that shouldn't be a problem for you :)

    Q: Warum werden bei großen LoL tunieren nur eine enge Auswahl an Champs gepickt?
    A: Die Pros spielen vorzugsweise die Champs, die bestimmte Dinge am besten können (die sie besser können als andere champs). Beispielweise hat Tank A bessere Stats, mehr CC, mehr peelvermögen als Tank B. Solange Tank A zur Verfügung steht wird, wird er deshalb immer wieder gepickt, da er einfach overall besser in der jetzigen Meta ist.

    Q: Wie wird gebalanced?
    A: Wenn champs zu hohe bannrates / pickrates / winrates haben, wird vom balancing Team meistens geschaut woran das liegt, um dementsprechend kleine Abschwächungen vorzunehmen.

    Q: Wird versucht, dass alle Champs gleich gut sind oder dass jeder champ irgendwann mal meta wird?
    A: Nicht direkt, manche champs wie Warwrick sind bereits extrem veraltet und bringen keine Mobilität mit. Champs mit hoher Mobilität sind meistens beliebt im Proplay. Veraltete champs ohne gapcloser etc. verharren dann auf den sehr niedrigen pickrates, riot konzentriert sich überwiegend darauf, dass die neu rausgebrachten champs einen Platz finden.

    Q: Wie stark wirkt sich die ban phase vor einem game auf die Champ Auswahl und Spielstrategie aus?
    A: Im Bereich von Low-elo (niedrigen Rang) Spielern etwa überhaupt nicht. In höheren Elos und auch in höherrangigem Teamplay versucht man direkt in der pick- und banphase sehr starke comps (z.B. full Peel comp für einen starken carry) zu vermeiden durch gezielte bans. Manche Leute gehen nach spielen so weit, dass sie sagen, dass nach der pick- und banphase ein spiel verloren / gewonnen sein kann.
    Manche Leute gehen soweit und sagen, dass der Ausgang eines Spiels schon nach der Pick- und Banphase fest stehen kann.

    Q: Gibt es grundsätzlich die Möglichkeit einen champ zu counterpicken und wenn ja wie und wieso?
    A: Es gibt für absolut jeden Champion einen Counter, sei es durch andere Champions, durch Items die einen Champion besonders schwächen (Dr. Mundo hat sehr hohe Heilung und wird deshalb gecountert durch Heilungsverringernde Gegenstände wie executioners calling oder Morellonomicon). Riot ist in League Conuterplay besonders wichtig, es sollte keine champions geben die durch irgendwelche Umstände Dinge können, die nicht durch ein counterplay verhindert werden.

    Q: Gibt es mehrere Strategien ein Spiel zu gewinnen durch z.B. eine besondere combo von champs?
    A: Ja, besonders im Proplay hat man besonders oft z.B. sehr erfolgreiche Carry-Peel-Comps gesehen, in welchen mehrere Supportlastige Champions gepickt wurden, nur um einen oder zwei Champions so weit zu buffen, dass dessen Damage alleine ausreicht, um das gesamte gegnerische Team zu töten. Außerdem gibt es beispielweise sogenannte Wombo-Combo-Comps, die aus champions bestehen, die alle beispielweise sehr viel AOE Damage und CC mitbringen, um die Spiele in Teamfights für sich zu entscheiden.

    Q: Wird versucht das lategame zu erreichen oder das Spiel schnell und aggressiv zu beenden?
    A: Das kommt völlig auf die jeweilige Team-comp an. In einer Carry-Peel-Comp versucht man meistens, das Spiel bis ins mid- oder Lategame zu verzögern, da man dort meistens sehr hohe Chancen hat, das Spiel zu gewinnen.

    Q: Kann man nach einen schlechten Start noch gewinnen?
    A: Ja, hauptsächlich durch defensives Warding. Oftmals muss man anfangs viele Objectives wie etwa Türme oder Drachen dem Gegner überlassen. Man versucht, den Goldvorspruch etwas zu kompensieren, indem man auf den Lanes farmt, defensiv wards stellt und weitestgehend versucht durch vorhandene Sicht im eigenen Dschungel nicht mehr zu sterben.

    Ich hoffe wir konnten dir helfen :D
  • emiashiro wrote:

    Dota is balanced, best joke ever, really.
    What i'm reading here, really. Dota-zombies everywhere, why if that game so balanced, why LoL > Dota twice with popularity?
    Why in your "super balanced game" we can see 10+ heroes changes every patch? Because it's balanced?
    Why we can see just TONS of whine and community drops after last patch? Did you ever have 40 min Q in russia? I had it yersterday in DOTA2 , i waited game for 40min, for 40 in 3 regions, hello? Is thhis a popular game ? Why I should call this game balanced, if have RANDOM STUN, RANDOM MISS, and RANDOM abilities (chaos knight)? In balanced game you shouldn't have RANDOM, you knew it right?
    I know only 1 perfect balanced game it's a chess (but WHITE side OP anyways)
    p.s. TLDR: Dota never was balanced, not balanced not and never will be balanced. It's imbalanced game, that's why you can pick every hero, do whatever you want and buy whatever you want.
    I hate when people say this. LoL has more players because half the mechanics are not there. I have a good 15-20 friends that play LoL because it took them 2-3 games in LoL to "Get it". In Dota they still have about 100 hours and are confused of all hell. Its too frustrating for them so they just stick to what they know. Now do that and multiply it by 10,000 and thats why LoL has more players. Same with Call of Duty and every other Fps game. Call of duty has no recoil and its a run and gun. it removes mechanics that increase the learning curve. Less learning curve, better first impression, better first impression, more players. Dota is for people who still have a love for older games where mechanics were what drove the game, not first impressions.

    About Dota
    Also Stuns aren't Random they're Pseudo-Random. They changed that patches ago
    Miss isn't Random either, its 25% chance up hill. Also, they have Items so you don't miss. Choas Knight is the only exception, but he is a more Thematic hero than anything. Thats one reason he is not played much in competitive. Still a decent hero.

    No the reason Dota is balanced is because you can pick every hero. Every hero being picked + A decade of sample data = Balanced. LoL doesn't know what to do because the pick rates for champions are highly skewed no thanks to the unlocking you have to do. As well as people not have a high knowledge to play them all because of lack of meta stretching. LoLs form of balance is to literally strip the game of anything out of the ordinary. They removed so many mechanics in the game its borderline black/white.

    Also I've never had a 40 min queue. EVER out of the fucking 30,000 hours I have in the game. Even in fucking closed beta. The highest I've ever had was 20 mins MAx and thats happened twice.

    Also, Nothing is perfectly balanced. Even Chess. white piece players in chess tournaments have had an average 55% winrate since the 1800s.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by HaeL ().

  • Please do not get into which game is better discussion or I have to start deleting posts ;)

    Just for the record I did the maths and compared Worlds 2016 group and bracket and here are the results

    Worlds 2016 (77 games; group phase and bracket phase):
    >> 41% of all League Heroes have been picked (56 out of 134)

    TI6 (44 games, only counted Main Phase)
    >> 80% of all Dota 2 Heroes have been picked (91 out of 113)

    And I think for Dota this is a remarkable achievement and that was the reason for this thread to look into it and see why this might be the case. And thanks to everyone I got as a none professional a very good understanding of the differences.

    screencast.com/t/PJtBudFMl8r7

    Kind regards,
    Stefan
  • I think I know dota 2 by heart. Im a player since early versions of dota-allstars, hero arenas and etc on starcraft and warcraft 3. The major point of dota is that every character has CC and/or mobility skills. And even if your character does not have CC, he will probably have a lot of dps and you can make cc with the use of items.
    It's safe to say if you random a hero in dota 2, you will probably ending up with a hero that can help the team, even if you are a support or a tank or a dps. Also, with the use of items you can can build your way to change your game play eg: Cranium basher stuns, butterfly for dps and miss, eye of the skady for atribute bonus and slow.
    I think the basics is: what makes you pick a hero is his utility to the team, much like albion or any other games.
    If your hero has low damage, low mobity, low CC or low heal, he will probably not be used not because he isnt good to the teamr (even if you love the hero). He wont be used because there are better ones to fill that role. Thats why i think LOL has so many unused heros. The roles are absolutely clear: The AD carry will focus on damage, the support will heal or cc and the tank will be tank. Therefore, you just ha ve to pick the best ones to fill those roles.
  • It is my opinion that comparing balancing Albion online to balancing league or dota is not possible.
    players of Albion spend many many hours, days, weeks, and even months investing into a characters attributes on the learning tree whereas in dota and league your investment is 20-60 minutes and then reset so for someones "main" champion to fall out of meta due to CONSTANT changes in balancing is not so much as a big deal as it would be for an Albion players build to be nerfed or buffed.
    Therefore I do however think more seasonally updated games such as world of warcraft method of balancing could be more viably considered where balancing issues if not gamebreaking are addressed in response to the sum of an arena seasons data and results

    the problem for albion is the way players have universally been choosing to play the game pushing forcibly to the top in few items of the learning tree to stay viable in their surroundings

    one other observation is that league as well as dota has MANY more build options and with a much faster means of changing your choices amidst combat, you would think this would make balancing harder! but it just spreads the skillgap wider and then the blame goes less on balancing and more on the players wrong choice of build

    in league their method of creating champions is to fill sections of "types" of champions say theres 20 tanks 20 bruisers 20 adc 20 support and 18 whatevers the next champ they make is going to be another whatever so it will have a relatively simmilar kit and then out of that group type players are forced to choose which champion in that role provides the kit with the most advantages and least disadvantages and these DO change based on your teammates choices and the opponants, so few champions were picked in these tournaments because of simple math with current items and champions scaling ratios simply providing a few of them the benefit of being highly advantageous over other champions in their role

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hapax ().

  • As a conclusion comment. Dota has just increased certain heroes to have very unique spells that weren't possible from previous engines.This is one of the biggest reasons I think they have it locked by making every hero fairly good.

    Like slark, his Ult used to be invisibility. About 6-7 patches ago they made it where he is undetectable from dust, towers, anything. This is something that couldn't of have been done in early games.

    Also Faceless void, he now has 1,000 movement speed I believe when inside the chrono. This was something you also could not do with the previous engine.

    These things make their unique spells even more unique to where. "If you chosse them for that reason, that reason alone is a good way to gauge the hero and how the team can revolve around it" Not to mention, some heroes have what I call a 50/50 synergy.

    Where they have 4-5 spells but only 2 work well together and another 2 work well together But they can all be used at anytime given great game sense.

    Like Juggernaut or Shadow Shaman. Shaman has 2 disables, But he has a nuke that pushes as well as a Ult that pushes. So on one side he could max his disables and just be a (in the back) support. Or he can farm items and Be a sneaky split pusher.
  • HaeL wrote:

    As a conclusion comment. Dota has just increased certain heroes to have very unique spells that weren't possible from previous engines.This is one of the biggest reasons I think they have it locked by making every hero fairly good.

    Like slark, his Ult used to be invisibility. About 6-7 patches ago they made it where he is undetectable from dust, towers, anything. This is something that couldn't of have been done in early games.

    Also Faceless void, he now has 1,000 movement speed I believe when inside the chrono. This was something you also could not do with the previous engine.

    These things make their unique spells even more unique to where. "If you chosse them for that reason, that reason alone is a good way to gauge the hero and how the team can revolve around it" Not to mention, some heroes have what I call a 50/50 synergy.

    Where they have 4-5 spells but only 2 work well together and another 2 work well together But they can all be used at anytime given great game sense.

    Like Juggernaut or Shadow Shaman. Shaman has 2 disables, But he has a nuke that pushes as well as a Ult that pushes. So on one side he could max his disables and just be a (in the back) support. Or he can farm items and Be a sneaky split pusher.
    Rat doto best doto, Furion with +6 treants and necro... cancer
  • Frostweaver wrote:

    HaeL wrote:

    As a conclusion comment. Dota has just increased certain heroes to have very unique spells that weren't possible from previous engines.This is one of the biggest reasons I think they have it locked by making every hero fairly good.

    Like slark, his Ult used to be invisibility. About 6-7 patches ago they made it where he is undetectable from dust, towers, anything. This is something that couldn't of have been done in early games.

    Also Faceless void, he now has 1,000 movement speed I believe when inside the chrono. This was something you also could not do with the previous engine.

    These things make their unique spells even more unique to where. "If you chosse them for that reason, that reason alone is a good way to gauge the hero and how the team can revolve around it" Not to mention, some heroes have what I call a 50/50 synergy.

    Where they have 4-5 spells but only 2 work well together and another 2 work well together But they can all be used at anytime given great game sense.

    Like Juggernaut or Shadow Shaman. Shaman has 2 disables, But he has a nuke that pushes as well as a Ult that pushes. So on one side he could max his disables and just be a (in the back) support. Or he can farm items and Be a sneaky split pusher.
    Rat doto best doto, Furion with +6 treants and necro... cancer
    Too bad Furion fell out of meta and 7.00 didn't improve his status at all :p
    Terrorblade is the real rat :D
    Ding dong the witch is dead!

    Officer of Nilfgaard (Haamu's party)
  • I haven't touched both games in years due to the moba community.

    Back in the days when I played League each time a champion got released the champion was made OP only to be nerfed ~2weeks later.
    Remaining still slightly stronger than 60-90% of the champion pool.
    That was Riots way of getting income, everyone wanted that char for the first couple of weeks simply because that champ wins games.

    Dunno if this is still their strategy though.
  • NicZa wrote:

    I haven't touched both games in years due to the moba community.

    Back in the days when I played League each time a champion got released the champion was made OP only to be nerfed ~2weeks later.
    Remaining still slightly stronger than 60-90% of the champion pool.
    That was Riots way of getting income, everyone wanted that char for the first couple of weeks simply because that champ wins games.

    Dunno if this is still their strategy though.
    that is usually how you release something. You want to high shoot it more so than low shoot it when releasing a new hero. Though it could be a marketing strategy. It never occurred to me as a good one because you already have to unlock new champions anyways. Which imo, already fucks the balance.