This kind of unbalance shouldn't be allowed

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    • This kind of unbalance shouldn't be allowed

      Let's compare 3 skillshots that are quite the same in gameplay.


      T4 Wailing Bow spell (900IP) -> 257 dmg, 24m range, bad healing unless you hit 50 foes (19 per hit), short and low dmg increase (max 30% for 4 seconds). Energy cost: 47. CD: 10s.

      T5 Carrioncaller (900IP) -> 324 dmg, 15m range, 275 damage on time (55dmg in 5seconds), 600 total dmg, 35% healing reduction. Energy cost: 52. CD: 20s.

      T5 Wildfirestaff (900IP) -> 654 dmg, 25m range, 196 damage on time (49dmg in 4 seconds), 850 total dmg. Energy cost: 49. CD: 30s.


      Now, tell me, who is balancing this game? Do you even notice this kind of unbalance? Wailing bow is pretty useless, carrioncaller is good on dmg and utility (and it's a melee weapon), and wildfirestaff is just insane.

      Really, if you want this game which is based in pvp to succeed, at least start balancing the game like it should be. This kind of unbalance is just disgusting.


      EDIT: Bow has a much lower cd in its spell. But it's not balanced, see below:

      T4 Wailing Bow effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1442 dmg with 282 energy cost. That's 25,7 dps and 5,46 dmg per energy used.

      T5 Carrioncaller effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1800 dmg with 156 energy cost. That's 30 dps and 11,53 dmg per energy used.

      T5 Wildfirestaff effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1700 dmg with 98 energy cost. That's 28,33 dps and 17,35 dmg per energy used.

      Bow has the lowest dps and lowest dmg/energy.

      Axe has the highest dps and 2x the dmg/energy of the bow.

      Fire staff has midrange dps but 3,5x the dmg/energy of the bow.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Neshert () aus folgendem Grund: Adding cooldowns and energy cost.

    • KuroiAida schrieb:

      Agree about bow, but this spells both OP lmao.
      After all of that just look on other AOE spells , for example cursed staff's E (except artifacts), blizzard/hail damage.
      Well, I just compared those 3 spells because they are quite similar in their concept: long range skillshot that pierces through enemies. I dont know if carrioncaller and wildfire are OP, I just say that this difference between "similar" spells shouldn't exist. I don't know who is balancing this game, but his behaviour is probably random.
    • Neshert schrieb:

      KuroiAida schrieb:

      Agree about bow, but this spells both OP lmao.
      After all of that just look on other AOE spells , for example cursed staff's E (except artifacts), blizzard/hail damage.
      Well, I just compared those 3 spells because they are quite similar in their concept: long range skillshot that pierces through enemies. I dont know if carrioncaller and wildfire are OP, I just say that this difference between "similar" spells shouldn't exist. I don't know who is balancing this game, but his behaviour is probably random.
      Take armor piercer as long-range "spell" , heron spear nuke, warbow arrow, sweeping bolt (from xbows)
      Compare this spells also. And you will understand that is not random, it's just "genius" , oh wait.
    • Neshert schrieb:

      Let's compare 3 skillshots that are quite the same in gameplay.

      T4 Wailing Bow spell (900IP) -> 257 dmg, 24m range, bad healing unless you hit 50 foes (19 per hit), short and low dmg increase (max 30% for 5 seconds).

      T5 Carrioncaller (900IP) -> 324 dmg, 15m range, 275 damage on time (55dmg in 5seconds), 600 total dmg, 35% healing reduction.

      T5 Wildfirestaff (900IP) -> 654 dmg, 25m range, 196 damage on time (49dmg in 4 seconds), 850 total dmg.


      Now, tell me, who is balancing this game? Do you even notice this kind of unbalance? Wailing bow is pretty useless, carrioncaller is good on dmg and utility (and it's a melee weapon), and wildfirestaff is just insane.

      Really, if you want this game which is based in pvp to succeed, at least start balancing the game like it should be. This kind of unbalance is just disgusting.
      Add cooldown, mana cost, and projectile speed into comparison)
    • Wadefu schrieb:

      You have to look at the weapon as a whole kit and not just a single spell it has when your balancing. I'm not saying your wrong or right, but you have to look at a larger picture then just comparing spells outright.
      No, that's not the way. Because if I compare Q/W spells, then it's like comparing Bows VS Axes VS Fire Staves, since Q/W are the same for every weapon. I'm comparing these 3 artifacts because they have similar E spells.
    • vashangelarm schrieb:

      what about long bow aoe dmg its fine. hellgate dual pee shooters. insane dmg. whats ur point? u mad that currently the bow is sheet?. its a beta all dmg is being moved around stop yah crying and understand this, fvk bows last beta was # 1 item that every one was using them now they nerfed to balance play and ur crying...... stfu
      Lol, you don't even know what you are talking about.

      I'm not bow user, I'm not even playing the game right now. If you read my other threads in this subforum, you will see I've mentioned many underpowered items without even playing them, because it's just a matter of looking at spell numbers. Sometimes I look on new items and check if they are balanced, and I've noticed that this bow is quite shit right now.

      So please, if you want to flame, go to forum PvP and leave this thread, I don't want your opinion.
    • One thing to maybe take into consideration is chance of missing with the skill shot. Bow has passive slow as well as an active slow spell (Frostshot, 10s CD =O ) so that should help with the aim. It also gets 6 attacks per minute compared to to 3 and 2 of the others without any slow or root spells on them making more likely that misses happen on the other two and no damage is dealt compared to multiple small attacks form the bow.

      I only have used the carrion caller of the three so cannot say anything except what I see on destiny board though.

      From the three I would probably still go for carrion caller. I usually pick weapons with short cooldowns. It seems a good compromise of the three.

      edit: good thread, I would love to see more balancing discussion as the devs clearly need help there ;)
      edit2: damn that frostshot with 10s cooldown, makes me want to try that weapon! 8o
      Trying to be a voice for the casuals since Sept 2015 (and failing miserably)
    • Ravenar schrieb:

      One thing to maybe take into consideration is chance of missing with the skill shot. Bow has passive slow as well as an active slow spell (Frostshot, 10s CD =O ) so that should help with the aim. It also gets 6 attacks per minute compared to to 3 and 2 of the others without any slow or root spells on them making more likely that misses happen on the other two and no damage is dealt compared to multiple small attacks form the bow.

      I only have used the carrion caller of the three so cannot say anything except what I see on destiny board though.

      From the three I would probably still go for carrion caller. I usually pick weapons with short cooldowns. It seems a good compromise of the three.

      edit: good thread, I would love to see more balancing discussion as the devs clearly need help there ;)
      edit2: damn that frostshot with 10s cooldown, makes me want to try that weapon! 8o
      Right direction. But now lets add healing into accounting.
      In 60 sec, hitting just one target bow will heal for 114.
      One healing hit point can be compared with ~2 damage hit points due armor mitigation.
      So +228 converted damage per minute, or +3.8 dps goes for a bow.

      As for + damage on next spells, it depends on rotation and case, but still some average values can be calculated.
    • Hey thanks for your politely worded feedback.

      First of all I agree the Bow HG Artifact turned out very gimicky and the spell's design will be reworked in the next content update. The healing is not useful, when hitting a few enemies and if you are using the spell in the backline of a large fight, you don't need the potential heal of hitting multiple enemies. You'd rather have something offensive useful in this situation. The weird mixture of sustain plus damage has no real role in the game right now. Hence the spell needs a rework.


      But about your conclusion in the opening post:

      Neshert schrieb:


      T4 Wailing Bow effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1442 dmg with 282 energy cost. That's 25,7 dps and 5,46 dmg per energy used.

      T5 Carrioncaller effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1800 dmg with 156 energy cost. That's 30 dps and 11,53 dmg per energy used.


      T5 Wildfirestaff effectiveness in 60 seconds: 1700 dmg with 98 energy cost. That's 28,33 dps and 17,35 dmg per energy used.



      Bow has the lowest dps and lowest dmg/energy.


      Axe has the highest dps and 2x the dmg/energy of the bow.

      Fire staff has midrange dps but 3,5x the dmg/energy of the bow.
      No offense though, but this comparison, just like this, is over simplifying the spells quite a bit. Because it completely ignores the secondary attribute changes like healing per hit, Further there are various parameters in which these skillshots vary projectile range, projectile speed, delay after activatiing the projectile, projectile shape, does the projectile go through walls. Also it makes a big difference if you have a high alpha damage burst, that can snipe down enemies or if the skill does constant damage but can easier be healed up again. The cooldown also is part of the gameplay. You are usually not standing still DPS-ing away on your enemies. Pure DPS per energy comparison, especially for skillshots, is not really the best way to compare these spells.

      I mean, I guess you are probably aware of that too and just put it like this in the OP to make a point. And I agree, with your point: the HG Bow's design is one of the weakest in the game currently and therefore due for a rework.

      And by all means, please keep the thread going and post which skillshots you think are too weak or too strong. Even if I am not replying most of the times, I am a big forum lurker and read most feedaback. But for the sake of it please try to keep the discussion, uhm, less polemical. It helps if you are trying to have a more fair discussion. :)
    • @Retroman bit derailing but seems this thread got your attention.

      Have you thought about removing the stuns from the game and replacing them with slows.

      100% of my PvP deaths have been getting sunned, not having cleanse and dying. It is not fun. If slow would replace stuns there is the alternative to fight back (I am melee though) and using speed buffs to negate the slow.

      Stuns are most OP in the game as far as I know with my limited experience of PvP. And they are very demotivating to try PvP.

      edit: I might be wrong but going back weapons considered OP in the past (crossbow, claymore) many of them have had a stun of some sort.
      Trying to be a voice for the casuals since Sept 2015 (and failing miserably)

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Ravenar ()

    • @Retroman thanks for taking the time to answer the thread.

      Of course I'm aware of everything you mentioned in your post, but I just wanted to compare the main reason that someone would check to use a spell: the damage. For example, the burst potential of the fire staff is another advantage, since the bow's spell can be used every 10 seconds but the low dmg is countered by healers. That doesn't happen with the firestaff.

      The point of this thread is to show that the HG Bow is pretty useless, but also to remark that you are releasing some broken spells that shouldn't be released like this. I mean, we are still in Beta, but when the game releases, there shouldn't be major changes to spells, everything should be "more or less" balanced. You have a lot of information that I don't have according to spells (projectile speed, projectile width, etc) and I'm sure that you have excels or whatever with the items stats. You should really look into that so that every spell is useful in the game (at least in some way).