Gold Market, Premium with Silver etc.

    • Lanc3k schrieb:

      since last month when I brought my premium at 1.8 million silver, if I was to buy it today it's currently 2.3 million silver. How can it jump up 500k in a month.
      Out of principle I may just not renew and stop playing until it sorts itself out.
      then you should stop playing maybe with this mindset....
      or you start playing efficient and use the inflation instead of crying about prices....
      fact is: most stuff is increasing in price atm at a slow rate.
    • If you look at the price of gold in terms of actual money, and compare that to the silver you get, it makes sense that gold will go up. $5 for enough silver to replace 2-3 hours of work? Doesn't seem like a good deal. So people just get silver and don't buy gold (from SBI), which means gold's price will go up as people continue to spend it on premium.

      Plus, the "global discount" change. Pitched to help new players, which it does, but it also helps increase the price of gold. Lower tax, inflation of silver, increase of price of gold. I think they wanted this to happen, again, to make it more worthwhile for people to spend money on gold.
    • FriendlyFire schrieb:

      $5 for enough silver to replace 2-3 hours of work? Doesn't seem like a good deal. So people just get silver and don't buy gold (from SBI)
      It depends on the country. For example, the average salary in Russia, Ukraine, etc is ~$300 per month. However, all products and services are 8-35 times cheaper. Expensive eco-food for $50-200 there will cost less than $3. A cheap fast food will be more expensive than eco products.
      The game has a lot of players from Slavic group.
      Игровое Инвестиционное Сообщество: инвестируем серебро, получаем прибыль.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/87605-Игровое-Инвестиционное-Сообщество/?pageNo=1
    • CallMeGosu schrieb:

      Lanc3k schrieb:

      since last month when I brought my premium at 1.8 million silver, if I was to buy it today it's currently 2.3 million silver. How can it jump up 500k in a month.
      Out of principle I may just not renew and stop playing until it sorts itself out.
      then you should stop playing maybe with this mindset....or you start playing efficient and use the inflation instead of crying about prices....
      fact is: most stuff is increasing in price atm at a slow rate.
      erm thanks for reiterating what I just said?
      Don't worry no tears were shed over the matter.

      The point I was putting across was this wasn't a slow rise , but a massive jump.

      Your post, you quoted me in, gives no new information or expresses an opinion. I'm unsure of it's point.

      Anyhow,

      Good day
    • Lanc3k schrieb:

      CallMeGosu schrieb:

      Lanc3k schrieb:

      since last month when I brought my premium at 1.8 million silver, if I was to buy it today it's currently 2.3 million silver. How can it jump up 500k in a month.
      Out of principle I may just not renew and stop playing until it sorts itself out.
      then you should stop playing maybe with this mindset....or you start playing efficient and use the inflation instead of crying about prices....fact is: most stuff is increasing in price atm at a slow rate.
      erm thanks for reiterating what I just said?Don't worry no tears were shed over the matter.

      The point I was putting across was this wasn't a slow rise , but a massive jump.

      Your post, you quoted me in, gives no new information or expresses an opinion. I'm unsure of it's point.

      Anyhow,

      Good day
      To answer your initial question, gold is worth what people are willing to pay for it in game. When you purchase premium with silver, you actually are not using silver to buy your premium, the game is actually trading your silver to a player who has a Gold Sell order up on the gold auction house and then using that player's gold to buy your premium.

      An easier way of thinking of it, is I have 2500 gold on my account and you're looking to buy premium for next month. You come to me and say "I'll give you 1.8 million silver if you pay for my premium for next month" and I can weigh 'Is paying for your premium next month worth 1.8 million silver?'. As of right now, the gold market would basically be me telling you "I'll pay for your premium, but I want 2.3 million instead".

      These prices are dictated by the players. Someone else might come along and say "I'll do it for 2.1 million" which would make it cheaper but it is all based on other people essentially paying for your premium and you are trading your silver to them for them to pay for you. So as such there is nothing to "sort out" here. The prices are going to be whatever the players feel their gold is worth. However, this is likely to trend upwards in price as each time someone pays for premium that gold is removed from circulation. It's only when people purchase gold from SBI that new gold enters the gold economy.

      One more thing to note... if you're buying premium with gold, it's SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient to purchase it in bulk than on a month to month basis. It costs 19,000 gold to purchase a full year's worth of premium, if you do it on a month by month basis, you're going to end up paying 30,000 (or nearly 37% more). Even if you can't save up for a full year, just getting three months which costs 6,000 gold (over 7,500 gold purchased individually) will save you 20%.
    • Vindrax schrieb:

      It's only when people purchase gold from SBI that new gold enters the gold economy.
      And the gold new player get with new account.

      Vindrax schrieb:

      One more thing to note... if you're buying premium with gold, it's SIGNIFICANTLY more efficient to purchase it in bulk than on a month to month basis. It costs 19,000 gold to purchase a full year's worth of premium, if you do it on a month by month basis, you're going to end up paying 30,000 (or nearly 37% more). Even if you can't save up for a full year, just getting three months which costs 6,000 gold (over 7,500 gold purchased individually) will save you 20%.

      Great advice. buy in bulk for substantial savings. If you can afford 3 months you can probably save up enough for 6 months or a year next time.
    • Archiemedis schrieb:

      Ravenar schrieb:

      1) Is it true that us players ultimately decide the price of gold? If people think it is worth it to pay 500+ silver per gold that will be the market price? There is no regulation?
      You are a game company, you create a gold price = a silver to gold ratio. This is also your business income. You are able to create gold on demand and insert it into the game. You now have to keep a sharp eye on employees, so that they do not leak information, when the market will get pumped up.
      In my opinion, SI regulates the market in the end. Even if its just marginal and very rarely done. We had a thead about it last year, that was left open and died out due to bashing and toxic behaviour (like most of the time).

      Rule of thumb: If its linked to income, it will be regulated.
      At the current gold price, premium is still cheaper than the value it generates.

      As long as this is the case, I dont think we should jump to conclusions about a rigged market.

      That being said, the devs should make the gold market much more transparent to eliminate doubts like this. In both EVE Online and WoW, you can see exactly what auctions are up for their equivalent of gold.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • The global discount is a gold price manipulation tool designed to keep inflation down. The higher gold goes the less discount so more silver is used for repairs etc reducing the amount of silver and lowering the price of gold (in theory).

      I do suspect they (SBI) purchase or sell gold to manipulate the price.. ie if gold is too cheap they might buy a bunch to push the price up where they want it.
    • Neu

      Fooky schrieb:

      The global discount is a gold price manipulation tool designed to keep inflation down. The higher gold goes the less discount so more silver is used for repairs etc reducing the amount of silver and lowering the price of gold (in theory).

      I do suspect they (SBI) purchase or sell gold to manipulate the price.. ie if gold is too cheap they might buy a bunch to push the price up where they want it.
      I literally just wrote that the value of premium is higher than what it costs. One month of premium generates 300k focus. That focus can be converted to silver. Currently 300k focus is worth way more than silver than it costs to buy premium for a month.

      As long as this is the case, we can be pretty sure that SBI aren't manipulating the price.

      Also, it would be pretty retarded of the devs to create a mechanic that lowers the price of gold (the global discount) and then manipulate the price upwards.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Neu

      @Vindrax your examples are not exactly true.

      Same as digital currents, gold in AO cannot be undersold using the market. I am not sure if the gold market works like it used to during beta where I could set 20.000 gold worth of buy order at, lets say 920 sillver and sell order worth 20.000 gold gor 921. With the amounts of gold some people have I believe in theory they could lock the market anytime. Just that it is more profitable to lock a certain margin instead.

      Gold cannot be traded anymore so only way to trade gold is the broken gold market.
      IGN : Ravenar
      Discord : Ravenar#2076
      ("on a break")
    • Neu

      You can definitively take both sides of an order Ravenar. I do on a regular basis.

      But for perspective I trade in roughly 5000 gold blocks, because I found 10000 took sooo long to fill it was practically impossible. Even my limit orders for 5000 gold often don't fill.

      So when I flip gold for a profit, I routinely walk away with 10-20k silver, which for the risk and the effort isn't worth the time.

      10-30 silver spreads, just arn't wide enough, nor does the market have enough liquidity for widespread manipulation on a short term scale.
    • Neu

      Ravenar schrieb:

      @Vindrax your examples are not exactly true.

      Same as digital currents, gold in AO cannot be undersold using the market. I am not sure if the gold market works like it used to during beta where I could set 20.000 gold worth of buy order at, lets say 920 sillver and sell order worth 20.000 gold gor 921. With the amounts of gold some people have I believe in theory they could lock the market anytime. Just that it is more profitable to lock a certain margin instead.

      Gold cannot be traded anymore so only way to trade gold is the broken gold market.
      I mean it more in the theoretical sense in my example, that is effectively what is happening when people purchase premium with silver. Most people assume when they are purchasing premium with silver, they are actually paying for their premium with the silver they gathered in game and that SBI is setting some price that people need to pay if they want to pay with silver versus real life currency. Conspiracy theories aside that SBI is manipulating gold prices, that is not what is happening. Players are setting the silver prices for premium based on how much they are willing to sell their gold for.

      Could someone theoretically lock the market at a set price if they invested enough money into the game? Sure, but the player would have to be rich enough to do it and even then it would only work at a price point that people are willing to accept. But all that essentially means in a trading scenario is that guy is willing to sell premium for to a player for 2.3 million silver a month. If people think that price is a good deal, they trade him 2.3 million silver and he'll pay for their premium. If they don't, their options are to forego premium, buy gold from SBI for real life currency, or to wait. If people felt collectively that 921 silver per gold/~2.3 million silver per month of premium was way too high then people would not be purchasing gold/premium from him and instead people would be selling him gold constantly at 920 silver until he runs out of silver and the market takes over again.

      Let's pick a much more extreme example to better demonstrate this. Let's say same scenario that this insanely rich guy buys out all of the sell orders of gold on the market and tries to relist selling gold at 10,001 silver per gold and buying gold at 10,000 silver each. In that scenario, it is incredibly unlikely that anyone is going to buy gold from him and extremely likely that players will rush to sell him their gold for silver. It would be unsustainable for him to maintain continually buying gold at 10,000 silver each until he ran out of silver and people begin rushing to undercut his gold sell orders very quickly.

      So could a player hypothetically "lock" the gold market? Yes, but it has to be at a community accepted price and they need to have an insanely significant amount of built up resources to do it.

      But the point of my post had nothing to do with locking markets or that trading could be manipulated by players.. but rather buying premium with silver is essentially a trade between players where on player is paying another player's premium for their silver. People may not like the gold market as it can help people find "the most efficient trade", but that's still basically what is happening. In many ways it's not much different than buying up a bunch of items you see under priced on the auction house and trying to relist them at a higher price.
    • Neu

      Stravanov schrieb:

      As long as this is the case, we can be pretty sure that SBI aren't manipulating the price.

      Also, it would be pretty retarded of the devs to create a mechanic that lowers the price of gold (the global discount) and then manipulate the price upwards.
      Actually they changed the global discount formula from 1000 to 1500 which will keep the discount higher but push gold prices higher also.

      = a manipulation out in the open designed to push gold higher. They said it was to help Steam Noobs buy islands etc, but a side effect is the new range for inflation fighting is 50% higher.

      Why shouldn't we suspect they are occasionally buying gold if it drops below a certain price. Example: put in a buy order for 999,999 gold at X silver so when it drops to X it won't go further. Without being able to see ALL the buy and sell orders you have no way to know.

      Therefore, some of the less trusting people will think they are manipulating it.
    • Neu

      Fooky schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      As long as this is the case, we can be pretty sure that SBI aren't manipulating the price.

      Also, it would be pretty retarded of the devs to create a mechanic that lowers the price of gold (the global discount) and then manipulate the price upwards.
      Actually they changed the global discount formula from 1000 to 1500 which will keep the discount higher but push gold prices higher also.
      = a manipulation out in the open designed to push gold higher. They said it was to help Steam Noobs buy islands etc, but a side effect is the new range for inflation fighting is 50% higher.

      Why shouldn't we suspect they are occasionally buying gold if it drops below a certain price. Example: put in a buy order for 999,999 gold at X silver so when it drops to X it won't go further. Without being able to see ALL the buy and sell orders you have no way to know.

      Therefore, some of the less trusting people will think they are manipulating it.
      Yea, better get out the tin foil hat. Those people probably also think the Earth is flat.

      Either way, I'm not saying they shouldn't make the system more transparent.
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/82954-Guide-What-order-to-level-items-in-to-get-the-most-specialization-for-your-time/
    • Neu

      I don’t think it is the devs pushing the gold price up. But I also don’t think they mind it happening.

      In the original post about a year ago, I questioned what is reasonable price for gold before it starts hurting the game. New players have less chances of paying their subs than the people before them.

      So my guess is SBI needs to regulate the price down, not up.

      But yea, I don’t care. I have more than 2 years of premium if I want. Several more if I sell my rare mounts.
      IGN : Ravenar
      Discord : Ravenar#2076
      ("on a break")
    • Neu

      Stravanov schrieb:

      Yea, better get out the tin foil hat. Those people probably also think the Earth is flat.
      Hmm, I think being suspicious of a blind system that could easily be manipulated by the endless wallets of the Devs is a far cry from flat earth lunatics.

      If you had Unlimited Silver and Gold could you fix the price? You bet. Do they? Dunno but they could.

      Taking them at their word without proof is not in my nature. Companies Lie or haven't you heard?
    • Neu

      Scipianas schrieb:

      Why do you say it is easily manipulated? When did you last try to manipulate the price?


      The chart when you look at 4 weeks is not a chart with price manipulation as an average. You would see spikes.
      Did you actually read what I wrote or did you skim? Tell the truth :)

      I said it could easily be manipulate by Devs because they have unlimited gold/silver. If I had UNLIMITED gold and silver I could make the market do whatever I wanted.

      I could put unlimited amounts of Gold for sale at 200s and since I have unlimited funds it would never go up. If I wanted it to be above 1000 I could put unlimited billions of silver worth of buy orders at 1000 so it would never go lower.
    • Neu

      No I read it,

      The chart would reflect that behaviour though. The 'devs' couldn't 'easily' manipulate anything without then massaging the chart, as well as having price points that had enormous volume, ie the chart would stagnate and just sit at that price for long periods of time. Again if you look at the chart over the longest period, you can see there isn't a single prolonged floor, or for that matter ceiling.

      The behaviour you describe isn't happening. When combined with the fact the argument you put forward was just wild speculation, without any basis in fact or even mild evidence, I was trying to politely explain on the balance.. it's a bit tinfoil hat.


      A volume metric in the chart would improve transparency and show how crazy theories like yours are though.
    • Neu

      what you see on the 24 hour chart is the price every 60 minutes... but intra-hour price movements are significantly higher and make the manipulation much more obvious...

      for example, gold sell orders almost reached 1000 silver intra-hour last week but the 7-day chart only shows a high of 928...
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