Can we please remove Alt characters from the game?

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  • Can we please remove Alt characters from the game?

    As the survey feature has been disabled by SI, i would suggest everyone who is interested in having this feature removed, simply either like the post or post a like.

    - SI stated, that they introduced alts after players had asked for them. So they were not here in the first place. (Time: Should have been before summer alpha 2015)

    I want to remove alts for the sake of a much deeper mmo/sanbox feeling + a repair to the market. How that interacts, i will explain here.


    Alts destroy player diversity

    Every alt character duplicates a role in the game world. With LP not being removed, this means that a selfsufficient way of playing the game massively destroys player roles.

    # An often used argument against this is, that each player has to actually play the alt (like a main), to unlock whatever LP barrier will be set in place. So equal play time means fair outcome. This is wrong:

    • With LP barriers below 100%, it is easier to level up early to midgame skills, that dominate the server for weeks to months. Only in the event of having played multiple months, the alt Lp way will fall short, as the grind and time needed to progress will make it unreasonable for many players (not all)

    • Hardcore 24/7 account sharing guilds will still abuse carfting/refining and farming alts as a mean to be the best at something by funneling resources and LP into one alt
    --> The moment that early to midgame skills get duplicated, the worth of every crafter, farmer and refiner is getting lower and lower, to a point where they quit being that role

    --> With too much competition in early to midgame life, there is no chance for the average person, to experience a fun game play through selling products at a reasonable price. Without a reasonable price, the market does not enable these roles to survive their choice of play (example: being needed to craft certain items = being useful and selling = being able to buy items = participating in the market. This was experienced in summer alpha 2015 and never again after LP and alts were introduced)

    • Alts can be placed at safe zones or useful locations, to quickly "teleport" the player there and interact with the game
    --> This is a serious problem one has to understand to the fullest:

    When an alt character does not leave the save town and is fed through a fighting pve main gatherer, he can fast level through tiers without ever having interacted with the open world in a way, that would demand a) investment into gear, b) investment into combat skills and c) risk of losing resources due to pvp or pve. This also applies to naked scouting or any other way of jumping through the game world, by alting.

    One might say, that the main character still engages in the open world, but then he should have sold his resources on the market and not replace a crafter with an alt. You could even say, that without the need to feed an alt, the main could possibly be encouraged to play in a much different way (more pvp for example).



    • SI told many of us through their advertising, that you can become anything you want
    --> Then there should be no need to split your way of playing into categroies, as you would be able to become anything you want. So why is everyone using alts? Because LPs enable a faster progression and self made equipment is cheaper, than buying off the market. Even if this argument seems a little light, the general idea behind Albion Online was, that meaningful = main roles are able to exist in their game world. Or in other words: that you can choose whatever role you want and have a fun time doing it. This is not the case and every used alt character is the argument against it.


    Alts create a false sense of a working economy for early and mid tier items

    Massive amounts of items dumped into the market are the product of alts being used, to circumvent the need to buy from another player. Prices for these items crash and players, who only play as a crafter, cannot make a good living. It is like putting one dungeon for 1000 people and expect them to get enough silver to have fun, camping the mobs for hours.
    It does not take any education to realize a broken market is in place, when people suddenly don't ask you for your skills anymore, and your products don't make enough money for you to not need any other source of silver. Numbers may tell game designers, that the market is doing fine, but alt numbers should be the real indicator, to what runs fine and what does not.


    I did have hope, that LP would be removed at some point in time, but this wont happen. So now we can at least try to remove alts for the sake of a real sandbox game. As long as alts are here to stay, there can never be an immersive game world in place. People who think otherwise have a low expectation of what this truley means. If Sandbox Interactive wants to create the game, that was advertised, they have to work on this issue.. a lot. And as alts were not envisioned, when the game first started it's tests but rather got implemented because players wanted them in (my guess is hardcore guilds just used multiple accounts to create alts in the first place), they surely can be removed again.

    Abuse of multi accounting and account sharing is indeed a real problem, but the removal of alts would still be an excellent move for now.

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 4 mal editiert, zuletzt von Archiemedis ()

  • @Archiemedis let's be honest at this point. They are following either their ideals or market segments that we are not focusing on with the LP and alt stories like you and farming are trying to push. I do not think there is much to do to turn direction at this point, but wait and see how things will turn for the next wipe and then release.

    Their marketing has been partially misleading to people like you "and me even if I saw this coming an year ago, but not a problem as I bought it for casual play on my device mainly", in reality all they are doing is to create a open world moba with territory conquest which require some side sandbox elements to justify the open world mmo aspects and economy, get it all together and streamlined enough to feel borderline a tablet title. I do not think they have yet the right people on board to actually create any sort of meaningful desktop-level sandbox experience at a level of complexity demanded by the PC crowd who has experience titles like EVE. Its complexity and future updates will probably feel at a great level for tablet gaming, and is probably what the game should be advertised in the first place, mobile first and pc as a additional platform, not the other way around. But obviously they have done that because they probably believe that this kind of complexity would still manage to capture desktop class gaming but probably also because they can get away with price points for desktop class founder packs, which wouldn't work that well if the game was meant for the mobile community. The only reason this game doesn't feel completely mobile oriented is the business model less greedy than usual for that platform and overall better gameplay/complexity compared to classic mobile offering. It really feels stuck between mobile and desktop, and difficult to position itself (to me at least), not because it's available on mobile, but because its gameplay and complexity is quite complex for mobile but not as good for a desktop class product.

    It's going to be a great game of great complexity balance for a mobile user standpoint and is going to feel right at home on my ipad pro as game on the go, for desktop users is going to feel very limited, even after expansions, once the novelty after release wears off. Order & Chaos and pretty much every mobile mmo even after years of expansions doesn't mean to be in line with enough content/complexity to fit PC owner expectations, this won't either because no matter how expanded it's implementation is light hearted and expansions will anyway follow.

    If they would have been marketing this game as tablet first, they would have probably overachieved expectations in my opinion, and it would be a more reasonable target for a small studio. Would feel more like underpromised and overachieved, instead of overpromised and underarchieved in this case.

    There will be problems like long farming timers or grinding style that doesn't marry mobile more immediate gratification and hectic gameplay dynamics well as it's too passive and long for it, but we will see how things will turn out.

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 7 mal editiert, zuletzt von OneTyper ()

  • Tezari schrieb:

    @Archiemedis Keep trying Friend, I will give you likes till end of times.
    He has got a post if I remember well with 50+ likes, which makes it on a same likeable level of pretty much any official megathread created by korn or bercilak, yet the voice and the likes are clearly being ignored. he has being turning around the same arguments over and over with all sort of wording, yet Korn comes back with the same generic response and references. It's quite disappointing, make me questioning really who is the actual audience they are really targeting for their LONG TERM vision.
  • OneTyper schrieb:

    Tezari schrieb:

    @Archiemedis Keep trying Friend, I will give you likes till end of times.
    He has got a post if I remember well with 50+ likes, which makes it on a same likeable level of pretty much any official megathread created by korn or bercilak, yet the voice and the likes are clearly being ignored. he has being turning around the same arguments over and over with all sort of wording, yet Korn comes back with the same generic response and references. It's quite disappointing, make me questioning really who is the actual audience they are really targeting for their LONG TERM vision.
    I feel like we got a lot of the negative changes because back in last beta players who kept getting ganked or couldn't find a "safe place" to fame farm flooded the forums with complaints. That's how we ended up with T7 Red zones and T4 blackzones. A lot of those players got what they wanted and probably left anyways. Now we who remain have less competition when trying to be heard so if Archiemedis wants to throw up complaints and suggestions all the power to him.

    The devs were always listening we just convinced ourselves they weren't because it wasn't us they were listening to... now maybe they are.
  • At this point, removing the ability to have an Alt would just ruin the experience for everyone...

    Whether you're for this suggestion or not, you might think it sounds great up until you dont have that alt anymore. If they remove alts then obviously theyll have to scale everything else down in terms of fame. The game will become 3x slower and 3x more boring (waiting for LP or grinding that tool you dont have). Sure, this plan sounds great in theory but if it were implemented right now, most every player would rage in some way. I know I would.

    Its just not feasible to do everything to sustain 1 character ON 1 character with the way the game is right now.
  • While I think removing Alts would be a somewhat radical solution and brings flaws with it... I support your idea because it simply fixes more thngs than a ton of solutions that the Devs still have to come up with... I believe the Devs keep Alts mainly because they need to earn money on the end of the day. its simply to tempting to leave it more or less how it is however I desperatelly hope they think twice about it.

    Alts destroy so many things and removing them would be somewhat radical but it would definetelly be significantly better than the current system.
  • BRiCK schrieb:

    At this point, removing the ability to have an Alt would just ruin the experience for everyone...

    Whether you're for this suggestion or not, you might think it sounds great up until you dont have that alt anymore. If they remove alts then obviously theyll have to scale everything else down in terms of fame. The game will become 3x slower and 3x more boring (waiting for LP or grinding that tool you dont have). Sure, this plan sounds great in theory but if it were implemented right now, most every player would rage in some way. I know I would.

    Its just not feasible to do everything to sustain 1 character ON 1 character with the way the game is right now.
    You just sound like a guy that uses alts.
    Why should players have a free advantage over others? Someone wants an alt? make them pay. Note, this doesn't make the game P2W
  • Komamura schrieb:

    BRiCK schrieb:

    At this point, removing the ability to have an Alt would just ruin the experience for everyone...

    Whether you're for this suggestion or not, you might think it sounds great up until you dont have that alt anymore. If they remove alts then obviously theyll have to scale everything else down in terms of fame. The game will become 3x slower and 3x more boring (waiting for LP or grinding that tool you dont have). Sure, this plan sounds great in theory but if it were implemented right now, most every player would rage in some way. I know I would.

    Its just not feasible to do everything to sustain 1 character ON 1 character with the way the game is right now.
    You just sound like a guy that uses alts.Why should players have a free advantage over others? Someone wants an alt? make them pay. Note, this doesn't make the game P2W
    Agreed. dont seemany bad things when it comes to removing Alts. All it does is rob time of people. You log/relog/relog, click here and there, harvest... It really feels dull, boring, obnoxious after a few weeks. I ve had 2 Alts during this BETA period and after 2-3 weeks I found myself wasting so much time on those stupid tasks... the thing is that you HAVE to do it in order to keep up a little bit. I m not even close to a hardcore player but having 0 Alts puts you so much behind that it almost doesnt make sense to try to achieve anything. One might say that ppl will get double accounts...Well I say let them do this then but at least it will be not so easy to abuse and sabotage the whole economic system.

    Guys, the only little chance we got is to push/like, keep such threads on the top which push for the removal. I might be wrong and the silent majority feels like Alts are a good thing. If thats teh case and we dont see any significant resistence during the coming months then we have to accept it and deal with it but fankly... I m pretty sure that a vast majority would support the removal of Alts if they just knew and would be told that it affects every single player. Its a bit radical fix to this issue but better than anything that has been suggested so far.

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Joshuan ()

  • Thanks for the kind words here and there, guys and for the most part: thanks for reading through.

    I feel that OneTyper's statement sadly hits some truth and at this point, this post is pretty much the last resort. As some might have noticed, the next feature about being able to find artifact drops, that upgrade your equipment without the need of a crafter, is one more step in the direction of a game that i do not want to play. I am interested in how SI will call/advertise the game in the end ... and how much sandbox will be left.
  • Komamura schrieb:

    BRiCK schrieb:

    At this point, removing the ability to have an Alt would just ruin the experience for everyone...

    Whether you're for this suggestion or not, you might think it sounds great up until you dont have that alt anymore. If they remove alts then obviously theyll have to scale everything else down in terms of fame. The game will become 3x slower and 3x more boring (waiting for LP or grinding that tool you dont have). Sure, this plan sounds great in theory but if it were implemented right now, most every player would rage in some way. I know I would.

    Its just not feasible to do everything to sustain 1 character ON 1 character with the way the game is right now.
    You just sound like a guy that uses alts.Why should players have a free advantage over others? Someone wants an alt? make them pay. Note, this doesn't make the game P2W
    You just sound like a guy that doesnt use alts.

    P2W is exactly what it will do.

    - big guilds got high manpower, so more competitive players willing to throw more bucks in.
    they´ll get alt-crafters and stack fighting on their mains

    - small guilds who want to just casually play wont do much p2w
    they´ll have to either push crafting on mains (not having LP for fighting -> disadvantage) or using LP for fighting and having to buy gear from market (which will be dominated by fewer people, so higher prices... people are already too greedy/broke to buy stuff now, lol^^)

    - solo-players will scatter their LP left and right (farming, cooking, crafting, fighting) and wont achieve sh!t.

    __
    I understand the reasons "make it feel naturally, no artificial population-growth, ..."
    but if you really think through it, the less organized people will suffer a lot more then the few big guilds, which according to most people here seem to profit the most.


    Edit:
    fyi, I am using alts.
    1 gatherer, spent 90%+ of my time on that. doing gathering god knows where with some build for running away.
    1 fighter, spends most of his time standing in guild territory, ready to log in wearing some AoE weapon used in zergs, whenever we got some pvp-action
    1 farmer, used on private island doing the do... not really fun, but is needed for farming/laborers.
    without alts I could NOT participate in several parts of albion while still maintaining efficiency.
    i cant run 10 clusters with my gatherer each time there is a smell of some open-world-pvp.
    i cant run 15 clusters every day to get those laborers/crops
    and no, i also do not want to cut down on those activities.


    ...you all just sound like some queensmarket campers, who dont benefit from having 3 characters standing in town.

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von ZaZii ()

  • I just wanna weigh in here that although I love the idea behind this post and fully support it I don't believe alts are the actual problem, they are a result of a flawed LP system.
    If you gained fame/xp the old fashioned way there would be no reason to specialize an alt when u could do the same on your main and I believe that fixing (replacing) the LP system will in turn fix the major specialized alt problems while still allowing players the freedom to have alts for more legit reasons.
  • Komamura schrieb:

    You just sound like a guy that uses alts.Why should players have a free advantage over others? Someone wants an alt? make them pay. Note, this doesn't make the game P2W
    Yes I do use alt characters, even stated it in my post. Anyone not using alts are the only ones complaining about alts...

    Again, I dont disagree that they should be removed, HOWEVER, they cannot be removed at this point in the game. It would have to be after the wipe.

    Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Elsa () aus folgendem Grund: Insults.

  • BRiCK schrieb:

    Komamura schrieb:

    You just sound like a guy that uses alts.Why should players have a free advantage over others? Someone wants an alt? make them pay. Note, this doesn't make the game P2W
    Yes I do use alt characters, even stated it in my post. Anyone not using alts are the only ones complaining about alts...
    Again, I dont disagree that they should be removed, HOWEVER, they cannot be removed at this point in the game. It would have to be after the wipe.
    And? just because I don't use them, doesn't mean I am wrong. Alts are the main big issue that also causes issues with the LP system. Even an idiot knows that.

    Oh they could. I believe this would work as a great punishment for using alts.