[Edited] Albion Online with abundance of resources - Discussion

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    • [Edited] Albion Online with abundance of resources - Discussion

      (This is an idea directly written down, with little to no review beforehand)

      Albion Online does not feel like a living world.

      The reason for that is a game mechanic to prevent abundance of resources. But the system in itself presents a burden to the whole game world, if not perfectly balanced.
      --> Natural resources -if gathered- dissappear and leave behind a static map without interaction. This means, that the more gatherers there are, the less resources the average player will find in the world.

      If you do not wish to pvp or pve mainly, gathering is a thing, that most players will take up. You go out, you find something, you take it with you and profit. Fastest way to please a player. Same thing with mobs and silver.
      So nearly every player will gather at least one resource type.

      Most of the play time is consumed by walking through zones. The actual gathering work is quite short in this build, hence putting almost all interaction to traveling. Skinners may have more fighting to do. In my opinion, the general problem does lie within the forced barrier, which is the algorythm behind spawning rates. In an attempt to change the main problem, an idea emerged, which i want to discuss with you all here:

      What if the world had abundant resources?

      Imagine maps full of resources, which would only slowly disappear. You would have a more realistic world to play in and could always gather, what you want and when you want.
      With this change, we would need to adjust some things in oder to maintain a healthy economy:


      - normal resources would have 10000+ units, less small resource spots, but bigger chunks
      - rare resources would be even more rare and can sometimes be found in normal resources through minigames
      - gathering skill would determine, how many units you will yield per try
      - crafting would demand way more resources
      - gathering time needs to be balanced
      - minigames can be implemented
      - multiple players can gather at the same resource
      - gathering skill would have an exhaustion rate connected to it, so that an inexperienced gatherer may only work for 5-10 min (100-200 resources)
      - exhaustion rate would be the new gating mechanic (part 1)
      - resources, that are depleted, would use the spawning algorythm (gating mechanic part 2), but only to switch the position of the new spawns and not to keep spawns form happening

      What would change?

      --> you would gather at certain spots for a longer time, maybe do some minigames, to increase your yield, reduce your stamina consumption or find more rare loot
      --> maps would overall look more rich in resources and you could always find something to gather
      --> crafters would need more resources to craft, to balance out the new amount of incoming resources. They can also get minigames to reduce the amount of resources needed, to increase quality or fame gained.

      --> exhaustion rate as a new way to regulate overusage:
      Gathering skill, equipment and/or food determine your stamina while gathering. A pure gatherer, specialized in gathering one resource, would have a good amount of stamina, to work hours after hours, if he/she so desires.
      Equipment durability will be more important than before, as you would be able to completely destroy your tool through gathering (because you can actually gather until your tool breaks).
      Minigames can occur, which challenge the player to do his/her best, to gain a bonus. You could even find rare resources through these games.

      The longer a player stays at one resource spot, the lower the chance of the outcome (minigames, loot). That way, it would be desireable to switch locations more often.
      Rare resources would mainly come from players, who are good at minigames. Skilled gatherers would make a profit out of their ability to gather + their knowledge of hidden rare spots in the world (maybe gatherer faction trinket, which reveals some spots only to you?)

      The stamina would refill over time (needs to be balanced well), so that you should always be able to gather, if it is your main way of playing. Gatherer Factions could also offer some sort of special massage/food etc., to help you regain a portion of your stamina, but you would need to pay in resources. That way, you could keep progressing at the cost of your own silver profit, or decide to make money and maybe go monster hunting, while you recharge your gathering stamina (after hours! of gathering).

      Goal:

      Endless possibilities; nearly endless resources, specialized gatheres heavily needed to get rare materials, always interaction for your main play style, traveling is still rewarding, casual players can progress more easily, hardcore pvp players may turn into gatherers and crafters. No more empty lands, no more boring travel time forced uppon you, if you just want to gather.

      Great usage for minigames.

      That's it for now.

      Exception:
      Skinners profit from killing mobs (fame) and getting their loot (gathering). Animals could also get increased resource units, but in line to their proportion (100-500, whereas a big ore rock could hold 10.000)

      @Korn

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 4 mal editiert, zuletzt von Archiemedis ()

    • I like the idea of some kind of "fatigue" being incorporated, and the fact that more specialized gatherers are going to suffer less fatigue.
      This would mean that some chump out on a pvp mission is less likely to stop and farm a node just because he can (because he no longer can, or risks some other drawback)

      I said during last beta, that being a focused gatherer and crafter was no longer viable simply because of the game mechanics.

      This alleviates some of that pressure, however still causes issues but I think this could be interesting.

      I don't really love the idea of resource being much more abundant, I think they need to be rarer, the main problem at kick-off of the beta is that there are so many people concentrated in starting zones. So obviously people are riding in circles getting 3 resource per node if at they can find any untapped nodes at all.

      This does get better later, and also in black zones it is less of an issue simply because there are less people out there gathering.

      I like the idea of someone specialized in gathering having more chance of getting rarer materials. Perhaps rare nodes could be removed all together and this rare material chance would be a percentage based on a few factors such as; how experienced the gatherer is, how long they have been gathering without gaining a rare piece, the zone they are in, their fatigue level (etc etc) meaning it is still possible for an inexperienced gatherer to get rarer materials, just much less likely. This sort of mechanic makes being a gatherer or having a heavy focus in it much more rewarding because 1. you can get that rare stuff that no one else can in abundance and 2. you get paid for having dedicated your life to a certain skill. and a bunch of other reasons.

      Im not sure what you mean by "minigames"

      Another thing I would like to see is much more of the mobs that can be also mined (like the elementals for example) I would love to see dungeons of them, with a boss that has higher chance of being rarer (or is always rarer ore)
    • Thanks for the detailed reply, Snorri. Can you help me understand, what issues would be caused?

      Snorri schrieb:

      This alleviates some of that pressure, however still causes issues
      -----

      Snorri schrieb:

      I don't really love the idea of resource being much more abundant, I think they need to be rarer
      Why don't you like it in particular? A trainee gatherer may get 1 resource every time he tries to gather, so after 5 min, he should have less resources, than the current meta would allow (if standing near full nodes).
      But a fulltime gatherer would get equal or more resources in the same time (again, compared to current meta with full nodes near you).

      The concept is all about showing availabilty of resources, but demands high skill level, to harvest properly. Traveling through empty lands is no fun. Traveling through full lands always enables everyone to participate in any action, but still keeps the economy stable.

      Snorri schrieb:

      Im not sure what you mean by "minigames"
      This would be another key part of the concept: you would get a random chance to participate in a minigame, while gathering. For example a 2d picture of the recource would show up in the middle of your screen and you would have to click certain spots, as fast as possible in a set time frame. The more accurate and fast you do this, the more rewards you will get. Each reward could be ranomized or tied to the minigame (like getting up to 50% more fame for the current yield round, or double resource yield for the current turn, or maybe a piece of rare material of the same tier).
    • Ah ok I see what you mean by minigames.
      OK personally, in my experience, I both like and hate them. I've kind of answered you in reverse order here)
      What I don't like about it, is that often (at least in other games) it puts up another interface that distracts you from the main game interface. In pvp areas...this is always a bad idea (hence what I hate about it)
      I do like it, in that it provides something a bit more interesting than just travelling, clicking on a node 4 times, mounting again and moving on (that gets tedious very quickly).

      Again to drone on about EVE but they implemented something similar in eve for a skill called hacking. It opens up a minigame and you have to try to navigate your way through to get to the mainframe while using bonus items you find in that "map" (not really a map but a graphic maze if you like) also while avoiding the traps of the ICE (intruder counter-measure electronics.) Yes its both bad and good because its on a timer, and so you focus entirely on that ignoring your surroundings so pvp'ers tend to sneak in while you are not paying attention.

      It depends how the abundance is handled. If as you say it is controlled through the miners "level" or skill level, then this does somewhat limit it and makes it not so bad. I can just see people camping little corners and never moving. Keep in mind some of the hrm..."foreigner" guilds seem to have accounts that are shared and basically never go offline (even though this is "illegal" I can assure you it still goes on)

      The issues I was referring to, were not so much caused by your idea mechanics, but by the basic game mechanic of requiring combat skills to do anything in game.
      For example you can not be a purely focused gatherer. You still need to kill for example, a direbear, to get to that node he is lurking near. So you need combat skills of equal level to the zones where materials are found. Also, most of them tend to be in pvp area, so you also need to be able to survive using combat skills and high enough gear to escape or fight back. These issues are somewhat unrelated to your idea. However, assuming materials were more abundant (ie t7 rare could still be found in green zones) then this opens up a world where a focused gatherer does not need to delve out dangerous territory, he can still find rare stuff locally but maybe less frequently (as I mentioned earlier by using percentage alter-ers that might up the percentage chance based on which type of zone you are in).
    • Snorri schrieb:

      I both like and hate them
      I see, so the minigames have to be entertaining, rewarding and should still allow you to react in pvp areas. I think that all these aspects can be covered with the right games and interface set up.
      (btw. i never played EVE)

      Snorri schrieb:

      It depends how the abundance is handled
      Yeah, the key is balance; so although the maps would contain full resource nodes, it is NOT the most effective way to only sit tight on a t3 node until you unlock t4.
      -->

      Archiemedis schrieb:

      The longer a player stays at one resource spot, the lower the chance of the outcome (minigames, loot). That way, it would be desireable to switch locations more often.
      So camping is inefficient and will just yield less and less resources, the longer you gather + your tools will break at some point, so you either have to bring more tools or go back to town for maintainance.

      Snorri schrieb:

      but by the basic game mechanic of requiring combat skills to do anything in game.
      Yeah, i wrote something about that in here
    • I like the idea about more infinite resource-spots, it´s quite similar to Eve were you had mineralfields, which isnt bad. After all Eve have been there for over 10 years, so it works.

      The challange is to incorperate the big bulk of casual care bear players who only do safe farming, ie <T4 farming. High consumption of common materials (<T4) is needed when crafting high end items is needed, so there will be a constant demand on all resources.

      This would also benefit pvp is some way as gatherers would be more stationary in diffrent spots, and would even in some zones need protection while gathering. This would make it hard to farm high end resources as >T5

      When it comes to rare resources, i would like theese to be spawned randomly around the maps. In this way you would have the same type of farming we have to day where you need to be mobile, but you only get rare or very rare resources. Its risky as you will not have a whole party there to protect you, you will probably search on your own.

      This would end up with three categories of farming
      1. <T4 easy farming, not much risk but neither much rewarding. You can probably calculate exactly the amount of silver per hour you would make on this. Belive it or not, alot of players actually enjoy this playstile since you know what you´re gonna get.
      Risk: Bots...

      2. T5-T8 materials in red and black zones. You can gather alone at theese spots but you´ll likely to be ganked if you dont have support. Guilds can gather up for gathering events to protect each other etc.

      3. Rare T4-T8 materials (not sure what to call them, but you probably know what i meen) to be found randomly around the map.
      High risk running around solo, it can be very rewarding with some luck but you might also get nothing with some bad luck.

      This will atract 3 types of players as i see it.
      1. Carebears who just whant to do some casual and easy farming, which i belive is a quite big part of the players. Just look at Eve...
      2. Those who whant to farm in groups and must cooperate with guilds to progress further
      3. Solo farmers who whant risk vs reward
    • I think the illusion of "living world" can be achieved more easily in the restrains of the current system without redesigning everything.

      a- MOBS
      a.1 -get the mobs out of their ghettos, the mobs should roam on the map and not be constrained to their village, some of them should guard the resources ( the quarry, the garden, etc)
      a.2 - spawn veteran bosses on the map, the more resources there are in vicinity, the higher the chance for a veteran boss to spawn.
      a.3 - the localized resource mobs ( ore elementals, driads, cougars, etc) should be harder to kill, currently they are just annoying walking nodes.

      b-resources
      b.1 -when a resource spot depleted, don't show the depleted resource graphic, show nothing, no trace for a resource.
      b.2 - when a resource is depleted it disappears and when its time to reappear it will appear in a different place. if for example the current map host 50 spots for nodes of resources, make map with 100 spots but only 50 of them can be toggled at the same time.

      c- dungeons
      c.1 the current dungeons are awesome, but they could be nicer, underground mine dungeons should have ore nodes, ancient crumbling castles should have stone nodes, underground water wells should have vegetation, the dire rats should be skinned etc, etc. this will also bring weight dilemma to a dungeon; do you get more encumbrance passive or the combat passive
      c.2 the portal closed dungeons will have higher chance to have rare materials (t2, t3) rather than normal.
    • Yeah, that completely propells around the given idea presented here, so i really can't use any of that.

      The Mobs - points were already discussed some months ago, got no reply from SI. Harder to kill resource mobs would be a new demand.

      Resources disappearing would deepen the problem at hand, that the land looks empty and the player experience is generally tuned towards traveling (which is boring).

      Dungeons are completely off the point in this topic.
    • Bogul schrieb:

      fuck mini games,
      I really liked the fishing mini game in black desert and do believe, that any sort of skill involved in life skills will produce a higher interest rate.

      Give more love for challenges in life skills. It would feel great, if you hit a combo correctly and received a rare recource or get 2x fames or double resource outcome. Reward a player for skill, like you do in combat.
    • "The longer a player stays at one resource spot, the lower the chance of the outcome (minigames, loot). That way, it would be desireable to switch locations more often."

      I think this should be the other way around; the longer you work on the same node, the higher change on rare loot/mats. That way the bigger the chance of a gank. Also makes it easier to group up and hit the same node, protection from ganking because gathering in numbers. Creates more opportunities for small scale pvp opposed to moving around constantly.
    • Archiemedis schrieb:

      Bogul schrieb:

      fuck mini games,
      I really liked the fishing mini game in black desert and do believe, that any sort of skill involved in life skills will produce a higher interest rate.
      Give more love for challenges in life skills. It would feel great, if you hit a combo correctly and received a rare recource or get 2x fames or double resource outcome. Reward a player for skill, like you do in combat.
      It all depends on what kind of direction they want the game to go in the foreseeable future. More towards a sandbox set of side activities to enrich the world, more towards alternative pvp modes or pve elements, a mix of all. So called minigames, which imho should be called something along the line of world activities or professions are perfectly in line with sandbox concepts of give freedom to do and be what you want. At the moment the game is an open world pvp focused mmo with side sandbox elements, fight is the focus (which is usually a key element in fantasy mmo), everything else is a side dish. Si had the opportunity to set the concept more towards a sandbox initially, where side activities could give more of a specialisation feel, which is now nearly lost due to design decisions over different iterations. From a business perspective, this decision might not be completely wrong depend on the segments of players they are targeting, fighting focus with side elements is usually a standard in many products, so they are not going to invent the wheel, but from a personal perspective as one that enjoy the more economic and side activities in games that give those sandbox elements, I hope they will over time reconsider to give more emphasis towards side activities, make them more complex and fun, and enlarge the variety of things to do. Not just fight, the real world is the ultimate concept of sandbox, you can be whatever you want. While this game needs to be highly simplified due its nature and direction, it can definitely bring more sandbox into the table in a user friendly modules that are tightly integrated with the main game objectives.

      In other words, this will never and is not supposed to cater people who are interested in top end sandbox games like Second Life or the upcoming Project Sansar, this are as close as you get available commercially to what means sandbox at its purest form. Archeage and Black Desert while having more sandbox elements even if gimped down when looked in detail, they are still far from a true sandbox experience, they are sort of hybrid fantasy game with specific direction masked as a sandbox due to certain game system that make them more realistic with a higher level of freedom than standard themepark experiences.
    • Sunfusion schrieb:

      the longer you work on the same node, the higher change on rare loot/mats. That way the bigger the chance of a gank. Also makes it easier to group up and hit the same node, protection from ganking because gathering in numbers. Creates more opportunities for small scale pvp opposed to moving around constantly.
      While it sounds good on paper, did you think about the possibility of abusing the mechanic? That is the reason i put the concept of "exploring" in my proposal. A bot could mine the whole chunk and would get increased outcome. The incentive would be: stay at one spot for 10 min, camp, win

      While small scale pvp definetly needs some input, i highly advise against making gathering a meaningful part of it. Gankers should search for their pray and earn a good kill. Camping would just draw in zerg groups. No one wants that!

      From another point of view: If you need to switch resources more often, you will spend more time riding around on the map, making sounds, being obvious. That should be enough fuel for any good pvp player, to lock on and search.

      ---------------

      OneTyper schrieb:

      It all depends on what kind of direction they want the game to go in the foreseeable future
      That is absolutely right. I was surprised to see Korn interacting with this topic. After all it had been up for several days and he was tagged. But with his post, maybe they do see the downside of a gathering algorythm and the boredom that players have voiced related to it.

      Do YOU like the proposed concept?

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von Archiemedis ()

    • Archiemedis schrieb:

      OneTyper schrieb:

      It all depends on what kind of direction they want the game to go in the foreseeable future
      That is absolutely right. I was surprised to see Korn interacting with this topic. After all it had been up for several days and he was tagged. But with his post, maybe they do see the downside of a gathering algorythm and the boredom that players have voiced related to it.
      Do YOU like the proposed concept?
      As a player I would absolutely love for it to be expanded in this direction, yet the developers needs to be capable to introduce complexity while keeping the feature really user friendly. While it doesn't look so, it's a challenge 9at least I feel) and require skills that imho not all game designers have, I'm not sure if the team is big enough and has got the time to work on piece of work that require to take on a even bigger view, as expand, plugin and balance additional mini systems properly is not a cake walk (not if we users want this done...well...yesterday). I think there is still a lot of work to get the basics right even after release so let's see where they will get by release and 6 months after.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von OneTyper ()