Yellow and Red GvG in the new Beta2 Map!

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  • Yellow and Red GvG in the new Beta2 Map!

    After the recent announcement of the new Map and GvG mechanics for the upcoming Beta2, a considerable number of people expressed their concern about the inexistent opportunities to have organized group PvP (GvG) outside the Outlands. Without yellow and red zone GvG, there is no way to mentor new players into this important and specific aspect of the game, no opportunities to earn gradual experience prior to hardcore black zone GvG fights.

    It seems quite obvious that the creation of yellow and red zone GvG objectives in the Islands is a simple way to dramatically improve this situation (from absolute zero to something fine, that has been tested and liked), opening space to a meaningful existence for small and new guilds, and allowing new players to experience the specifics of GvG with gear equality and progressively develop skill and confidence to dispute the Outlands. It seems quite obvious that, once the big Guilds and their experienced players install themselves in the black zones, it becomes increasingly harder for any new guilds and players to find any space there, because their absolute inexperience would be easily pulverized by players with hundreds of GvG battles fought.

    Although several players have consistently expressed their concern and directly asked the Developers for their view on this matter, they did not grace us with any specific answer so far.

    During the upcoming Beta, the existing players will once again be gathering experience, an asset way more important than gear, way more decisive than any time zone restrictions and whatnot. Those who have more experience at this moment, will be learning more about the game than those who have recently entered, because they will have more and better opportunities for doing so. The gap keeps getting wider because: (1) the opportunities for new players and guilds to earn GvG experience at the current Beta are already infinitly smaller than the ones who are dominating the map (most PvP has currently been relegated to yellow zones, the only place where anything meaningful/fun can happen), (2) it gets worse in the new Map, with no option except getting creamed in the Outlands. So, we are already looking at a game release point which is dominated by the ones who currently have the experience, and will further increase it during the next Beta. If action does not take place now, the barrier for entering the game will keep getting higher and higher, killing any change of freshness and adventure for any upcoming player or guild.

    This has already been happening, throughout Alpha and Beta, and the Castle event shows some of its consequences (aberrations might be a better word here).

    Experience is, and should be, important. I for one have great respect for those who earn it. However, if those who are joining do not have the same opportunities to earn experience at any point in time than the ones who are already in, then something is wrong with the game and needs to be fixed!

    So, in my sincere investment to help in the improvement of Albion Online, a game in which I see great potential and where am hoping to have loads of fun:
    » I invite all players who share this concern to post here in a constructive way, share their views, and help to fix this situation
    » I invite the Developers to also post here, acknowledge our concern, and present their view on the situation

    Am adding my previous post below, as I believe it remains fully relevant and unanswered.

    Best wishes for a good and fruitful discussion! :)



    SevenLights wrote:

    Considering the new map and GvG system being announced:

    1. How easy will it be for the current zerGuilds to install themselves in the Outlands, ahead of any other Guilds?
    Seems pretty easy, as the Outlands seem to have been created explicitly for them.

    2. Is there anything meaningful to fight for outside the Outlands?
    No.

    3. Are there any opportunities to earn GvG battle experience (as per 5v5 or 20v20) outside the Outlands?
    No.

    4. How important are GvG fights in Albion?
    They are decisive, and the game will only exist when they are happening and they are good.

    5. How hard will it be for new players and Guilds to learn group PvP, and reach a level of basic proficiency in GvG fights?
    Extremely hard, if not impossible. The only way is to fight it out in the Outlands, mostly against zerGuilds who have the experience and the gear.

    6. Should there not be explicit ways of providing progressive GvG learning experiences to new players and Guilds?
    By all means, yes. No game can survive without fresh blood and diversity, and no new player or Guild can survive the impact of being absolutely defeated by the combined weight of experience and gear. If there are no intermediate reasonable steps for earning experience, then there is no learning, there is no fun, and there is no game for anyone.

    7. Can those opportunities for progressive learning be included in the game while preserving the hardcore nature of the Outlands and the protected nature of the Islands?
    Yes, very easily so. One approach would be to include yellow and red zone objectives to fight for in the Islands, preferably hard capped in terms of gear. Another idea would be to allow Guilds to organize practice matches in virtual battlegrounds, allowing new players to develop basic teamwork skills, learn from the more experienced players, and be able to consistently grow as PvP'ers in proportion to their dedication.

    Would like to underline that what I am sharing here comes from my direct experience. I have been playing Albion for 30 days (very commited), I am finding it extremely hard to earn any experience in group battles (to the point of considering quiting the game), and I see it getting much worse (for any new player) with the new map. Please consider this, include explicit intermediate levels of PvP/GvG previous to full hardcore, and improve this situation.

    Hoping for the best!
  • Yellow zone PvP is now being presented to the Community as a fun event (Fight for Glory in Whistling Ravine!); with a reminder for gear debuffs to encourage participation.

    Why then is the next Beta (and game release?) not including this option for PvP (inhibited by the criminal system) or any Yellow and Red zone GvG? Again, where else will the new players and guilds earn their PvP and GvG experience?
  • SevenLights wrote:

    Why then is the next Beta (and game release?) not including this option for PvP (inhibited by the criminal system) or any Yellow and Red zone GvG? Again, where else will the new players and guilds earn their PvP and GvG experience?
    Nothing stopping you from organizing event exactly like this with beta 2 systems in place. Yellow zone pvp(with yellow zone rules) will be possible in beta 2. I would guess, if all participants are flagged, criminal system will not hinder fights in any way. So, if anything, devs are being consistent with promoting it.

    Basically they are saying, yeah, we removed GVGs from yellow zones, but you still can go pvp - look ppl are doing it right now.
  • I have to say, that i personally feel @SevenLights concern. Now everybody should try to think this matter through, from the new players point of view. Many people have said, that yellow zone GvG's are very good way to introduce new players and new guilds to GvG. You can get valueable experience of the PvP/GvG side of the game without the full risk. It is a bridge to the big boys and girls playground to the black zones GvG. Now without that bridge many potential players might not get to the true action part of the game ever and they quit. Now thats the biggest issue here.

    Solutions to replace the lost GvG experience?
    • Nobody should mention duels around chests. Those are just a joke. In so many games the duelling is just way to kill some time.
    • Adding arena to royal islands. There should be 5v5 battles so it even little bit gives GvG feel. Ok, nice, but still not enough. Not even close. Arena just shows the small group PvP side, but GvG is so much more and you cant learn all of its mechanics and everything related to it, just fighting in arena.
    • So i am also interested what are the plans to introduce new players and new guilds to GvG part of the game? Is the outland going to be so large, that there is room for all possible guilds? Is there space somewhere in periphery to starting guilds. So far away from civilization, that it is hard to even find other guilds to fight with.
  • I will miss Yellow zones GVG, it was always fun and good practice. We spent 90% of this beta doing yellow gvg and it formed strong band between guild members, our skill improved exponentially and now we feel comfortable in any fight , that makes our battles not just good but always always fun.
  • HungryGhost wrote:

    SevenLights wrote:

    Why then is the next Beta (and game release?) not including this option for PvP (inhibited by the criminal system) or any Yellow and Red zone GvG? Again, where else will the new players and guilds earn their PvP and GvG experience?
    Nothing stopping you from organizing event exactly like this with beta 2 systems in place. Yellow zone pvp(with yellow zone rules) will be possible in beta 2. I would guess, if all participants are flagged, criminal system will not hinder fights in any way. So, if anything, devs are being consistent with promoting it.
    Basically they are saying, yeah, we removed GVGs from yellow zones, but you still can go pvp - look ppl are doing it right now.
    So you think that player base should arrange the introduce's of GvG side to newcomers? C'mon, you got to be kidding. Open world PvP aint even close the same thing than GvG. Open world PvP and arena teaches players to fight. It does not give anything else to manage from GvG and that is the main concern here.
  • I think what everyone thinks of as yellow zone GvG's will likely take place in the outter sections of the Outlands at the out posts since they provide little reason for the bigger guilds to hold onto them. Most of the focus will be on protecting the building territories whcih are what gives the guild a real advantage.

    Meanwhile outposts offer no building plots or even barriers to protect the player much for gathering. They simply act as a stepping stone to bring the guild closer to a Territory plot.

    In the current world things are different since the resource territories offer a fair bit of a benefit to the work of owning them via their barrier and exclusive resources. This gives zerg guilds more reason to conquer them other then for providing buffer zones or just for bragging rights.

    One thing I know for sure though is that it will be harder for guilds who want to own building territories but do not own any territories or outposts at all since they will have to fight massive battles against multiple guilds all trying to score that siege camp that unlocks one time per day. With only a handful of siege camps this does not leave much opportunities for landless guilds to hop in to the GvG scene. I will wait and see how this all plays out though in Beta 2.
  • Thomas9 wrote:

    So you think that player base should arrange the introduce's of GvG side to newcomers? C'mon, you got to be kidding. Open world PvP aint even close the same thing than GvG. Open world PvP and arena teaches players to fight. It does not give anything else to manage from GvG and that is the main concern here.
    If you wanted to know what i think about removal of yellow zone GVGs it would have been easy enough to find out. Instead you build nice strawman argument and decisively won against it. Congrats, i guess. Fact remains - developers promoting absolutely meaningless type of yellow zone pvp and simultaneously removing from yellow zones all pvp activity that actually have consequences is not contradictory.
  • Thomas9 wrote:

    Grimfest wrote:

    They are not adding in GvG's to the royal lands and there is a specific reason for that, however, they are planning a GvG like arena system for said Royal lands so people can still get GvG like experience(s) even if they don't own a territory.
    What is that specific reason?
    Because this game was designed and advertised as a hardcore PvP game and over time its drifted to more causal to accommodate causal/solo types of people, the ones that lack time to compete, skill to compete and courage to compete. Now when I say compete that doesn't mean dominate, that means "try." Sandboxes core design is to encourage new players and those that fear PvP, to try it, and hopefully eventually learn to enjoy it. This is why they have always designed their world and maps to encourage people to venture out by limiting there green and yellow zones and now red. When you take a look at the black zones, that is how they intended the game, the rest of the stuff you see in the green/yellow/red zones is the after math of a huge influx of causal paying customers that they don't want to lose. In short, the real game is in the Black zones and that is where they want you to end up..
  • Grimfest wrote:

    Because this game was designed and advertised as a hardcore PvP game and over time its drifted to more causal to accommodate causal/solo types of people, the ones that lack time to compete, skill to compete and courage to compete.
    Yeah, all these solo type of people who were playing yellow zone GVGs, solo apparently, they hurt hardcore PVP core gameplay of the game a lot. Not to mention the outcome of yellow zone fight was actually determined by skill - gear disparity didnt enter into evaluation here. Completely against the spirit.

    Grimfest wrote:

    In short, the real game is in the Black zones and that is where they want you to end up.
    Yeah, and to help you understand that they made transition all but impossible. That one is really impressive achievement.
  • Grimfest wrote:

    They are not adding in GvG's to the royal lands and there is a specific reason for that, however, they are planning a GvG like arena system for said Royal lands so people can still get GvG like experience(s) even if they don't own a territory.
    There are many ways of addressing that "specific reason", other than creating two extremes with nothing in between: 1) fully casual with nothing to fight for, and 2) fully hardcore with everything included. It looks like a very bad decision, and one that I am yet to see the Devs addressing with any consistent comment (despite being asked to do so by several people ever since the announcement of the new stuff). Considering how relevant this matter is, considering how important it is to make a bridge between incoming players/guilds and those already in, considering how essencial it is to be able to earn experience in the specific core fights that decide who owns territory, why are the Developers not present to comment this subject?

    @Grimfest

    Thank you for your reply.

    If a suitable arena system is added to the game, and if guilds can effectively use it to form their players and Teams, that is much better than nothing. How do you know that the Developers are indeed planning it, and when will it be available? Did the developers give you specific answers concerning that, and the general matter of being able to earn intermediate levels of PvP/GvG experience prior to hardcore fights?


    Timbatao wrote:

    I will miss Yellow zones GVG, it was always fun and good practice. We spent 90% of this beta doing yellow gvg and it formed strong band between guild members, our skill improved exponentially and now we feel comfortable in any fight , that makes our battles not just good but always always fun.
    Yup... A game with progressive levels of PvP/GvG presents more and better opportunities for players and Guilds to grow, in experience and confidence, and have fun while doing so. It does not bother casual players in any way (they don't need to participate if they do not want to), it can easily be made completely uninteresting for big Guilds (low reward, and/or high price), but it brings something of proven value to a vast slice of the Community. So, I believe we should make it clear that we want that in the game!
  • Removing yellow zone GvG was a bad idea plain and simple, i'm still fairly new I found yellow zone to be a great learning experience with my limited arsenal of gear. Allowed me to learn how GvGs work without being punished by being under-prepared and under geared. Later on I started doing red/black GvGs which in all honesty is definitely more hardcore, for a newbie to jump straight into a black zone GvG will just kill off any interest newer players will have in the game or at least in end game GvGs. I can understand placing more emphasis on black zone PvP but at the same time maybe have only a handful of territories in the royal islands. Use them as a training ground and when they're ready for the real stuff they can at least be prepared and have a fighting chance. Nothing is fun about skilled guild groups well experienced in black zone GvGs utterly smashing new players and guilds.

    Use the yellow zone GvGs as an intro of what's to come and they will move up when they're ready. This is the equivalent of downloading starcraft, or LoL and instantly being placed in the highest ladder before playing your first match.
  • The real problem here is that they didn't specify what the punishments will be for killing unflagged people on the Royal Islands. And that, understandably, makes people worry that the Royal Islands are going to like some sort of a cross between Candyland and Farmville.

    The punishment for killing people in red zones shouldn't be very steep at all but the best resources and mobs should be there. Yellow should give a moderate punishment for killing farmers and green zones should give a steep penalty. But none of the penalties should be permanent and you should be able to work them off without having to grind at it forever.

    Again though... very little was actually clarified and some of the wording has made people justifiably fear the worst.
  • ThatWhichHasNoLife wrote:

    The real problem here is that they didn't specify what the punishments will be for killing unflagged people on the Royal Islands. And that, understandably, makes people worry that the Royal Islands are going to like some sort of a cross between Candyland and Farmville.

    The punishment for killing people in red zones shouldn't be very steep at all but the best resources and mobs should be there. Yellow should give a moderate punishment for killing farmers and green zones should give a steep penalty. But none of the penalties should be permanent and you should be able to work them off without having to grind at it forever.

    Again though... very little was actually clarified and some of the wording has made people justifiably fear the worst.
    They announced this much and i think we have to wait that "coming soon" part and then we will get more information.



    "On the Royal Islands, the Royal Expeditionary Forces make sure everyone abides the law through the new reputation system.

    Everyone has their own reputation value, either positive or negative. Killing or assisting in the kill of another player in yellow and red zones lead to a decrease of your reputation, while killing mobs and gathering resources increases it.

    Your reputation value determines your reputation level (high to low): Glorious, Noble, Virtuous, Reputable, Neutral, Infamous, Villainous, Nefarious or Dreaded.


    Anyone with a reputation level below Neutral is considered a criminal. The lower the level, the less access the player will have to cities, with Nefarious and Dreaded only having access to Black zone cities.

    The new reputation system does not mean there will not be any meaningful PvP left on the Royal Islands. Clusters will have PvP specific areas, allowing for open world PvP without consequences.

    You can read more about the Crime and Reputation system here (coming soon)."
  • I understand the reason why they took territories and GvG matches out from Royal islands. Criminal system, new players and seasoned GvG. Criminal system wont fit in the same continent with GvG or there will be only murderers. Royal islands now introduces new players better in to the game and now when there aint guilds with territories it makes the exploring much easier. Also did the devs mention earlier that they are seasoning the GvG part someway? Was it like the outland or atleast part of it will sink at some point, rewards are given and everything starts over again?


    Devious wrote:

    I think what everyone thinks of as yellow zone GvG's will likely take place in the outter sections of the Outlands at the out posts since they provide little reason for the bigger guilds to hold onto them. Most of the focus will be on protecting the building territories whcih are what gives the guild a real advantage.

    Meanwhile outposts offer no building plots or even barriers to protect the player much for gathering. They simply act as a stepping stone to bring the guild closer to a Territory plot.

    In the current world things are different since the resource territories offer a fair bit of a benefit to the work of owning them via their barrier and exclusive resources. This gives zerg guilds more reason to conquer them other then for providing buffer zones or just for bragging rights.

    One thing I know for sure though is that it will be harder for guilds who want to own building territories but do not own any territories or outposts at all since they will have to fight massive battles against multiple guilds all trying to score that siege camp that unlocks one time per day. With only a handful of siege camps this does not leave much opportunities for landless guilds to hop in to the GvG scene. I will wait and see how this all plays out though in Beta 2.
    You have good point here, but still i am concerned is this enough. Sending new guilds to phepifery to learn GvG management.. still one part is missing, low risk. I would say thats the biggest problem here between yellow and black zone GvG. Yellow zones offers safety way to practise, you dont have to stress so much about losing all gear all the time for example. I agree with you, that lets first see how beta2 will manage in this matter. Althought in beta2 most of the players are oldies, but at release most of the players are new ones, so in that way this beta2 test wont tell the whole truth.
  • Grimfest wrote:

    ... they are planning a GvG like arena system for said Royal lands so people can still get GvG like experience(s) even if they don't own a territory.

    SevenLights wrote:

    If a suitable arena system is added to the game, and if guilds can effectively use it to form their players and Teams, that is much better than nothing. How do you know that the Developers are indeed planning it, and when will it be available? Did the developers give you specific answers concerning that, and the general matter of being able to earn intermediate levels of PvP/GvG experience prior to hardcore fights?

    Since we could not get a confirmation on this by Grimfest, does anyone else have any info on the Arena system?

    Furthermore, I again ask the Developers to join this discussion, and answer the important questions that have been asked in this thread.