The Elephant in the Room (Halberd)

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    • Stravanov schrieb:

      You guys are talking about it as if halberd is super OP.

      Halberd is not super OP.
      In fact, it is complete trash outside of small gang/solo PvP.

      It just has high mobility. And deals more damage then bows.

      Halberd is good in one single case: open world pvp vs. players who don't have a counter.

      Halberd can't beat all other weapons. It can run away from them. Which is probably what makes you think that halberd is more OP than it is.

      If they just make CC abilities more punishing (I.E. greatly increase the cooldown of the CC remove on medium head (forgot the name)), and rebalance slows across the board so a full medium with a slow on will always move a lot slower than someone who moves at the standard pace, and all of a sudden you actually have counters to halberd.

      The counter to spear/halberd and bows is then simply: any weapon with strong CC.

      The only reason mobility is king right now is that CC is undertuned compared to all the speed increases and CC removal in game.

      Maybe they need to redesign slows altogether so that slows are way more effective at removing speed buffs. So if someone moves at 120% speed and you put a 20% slow on him, the slow is doubled for the first 20%. This would make slows stronger vs. mobility-specced players. But not completely overpowered against players that move at 100% speed.
      the slows in the game are quite weak and are more punishing to already slow targets than mobility builds, though for a weapon with with high ranged and melee aoe, very high single target damage, very high high mobility, and good cc the weapon needs to be toned down. even the with mobility indirectly toned down the damage on the halberd too good for it's range and cc. In contrast the spear has the same mobility lower damage all around and does not have the cc. Either the range the cc or the damage have to be lowered in addition to the counters to mobility. My thought is to take spirit spear off of the halberd as changing it would ruin the other weapons in the line and it does not make sense for the halberd.
    • Verdandi schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      You guys are talking about it as if halberd is super OP.

      Halberd is not super OP.
      In fact, it is complete trash outside of small gang/solo PvP.

      It just has high mobility. And deals more damage then bows.

      Halberd is good in one single case: open world pvp vs. players who don't have a counter.

      Halberd can't beat all other weapons. It can run away from them. Which is probably what makes you think that halberd is more OP than it is.

      If they just make CC abilities more punishing (I.E. greatly increase the cooldown of the CC remove on medium head (forgot the name)), and rebalance slows across the board so a full medium with a slow on will always move a lot slower than someone who moves at the standard pace, and all of a sudden you actually have counters to halberd.

      The counter to spear/halberd and bows is then simply: any weapon with strong CC.

      The only reason mobility is king right now is that CC is undertuned compared to all the speed increases and CC removal in game.

      Maybe they need to redesign slows altogether so that slows are way more effective at removing speed buffs. So if someone moves at 120% speed and you put a 20% slow on him, the slow is doubled for the first 20%. This would make slows stronger vs. mobility-specced players. But not completely overpowered against players that move at 100% speed.
      the slows in the game are quite weak and are more punishing to already slow targets than mobility builds, though for a weapon with with high ranged and melee aoe, very high single target damage, very high high mobility, and good cc the weapon needs to be toned down. even the with mobility indirectly toned down the damage on the halberd too good for it's range and cc. In contrast the spear has the same mobility lower damage all around and does not have the cc. Either the range the cc or the damage have to be lowered in addition to the counters to mobility. My thought is to take spirit spear off of the halberd as changing it would ruin the other weapons in the line and it does not make sense for the halberd.
      Spear line without spirit spear is 100% useless.

      Also, I am suggesting that slows have more effect on players with positive speed buffs. Exactly so that it doesn't affect people who just move at 100% speed.
    • Verdandi schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      Are you guys talking about GvG or open world?

      Mobility in open world and in GvG are two completely different things.
      halberd is mainly an open world weapon and should be very good for it, but it is still op for it.
      I am just wondering why the posts above are talking about a setup where the healer wears leather.

      It sounds like you are talking about GvG all of a sudden. In open world small gang roam, there usually isn't a healer around. And you can't apply the "the team needs to wear leather to counter lack of healing"-logic to open world.
    • Stravanov schrieb:

      Spear line without spirit spear is 100% useless.
      Also, I am suggesting that slows have more effect on players with positive speed buffs. Exactly so that it doesn't affect people who just move at 100% speed.
      this is very very true prior to the spearline getting spirit spear very few used it and it was a non factor.

      Before spirit spear:
      Halberd had root and minimal dmg

      After spirit spear:
      Halberd had root \ dmg \ speed \ range

      normally jack of all trades can do everything minimally but will never be the best at anything
      so instead of removing spell that gives everything why not tone everything down to alittle less than the other weapon tiers so that it can still do everything but cannot be considered the best at any of them.

      i.e. speed slower than other mobility weps
      -dmg lower than other spike weapons
      -range lower than other range weapons
      -root lower than other root weapons

      this is what a jack of all trades weapon should be not what halberd currently is.

      p.s. forgot to mention
      aoe lower than every other aoe weapon.
      HCN wrote:
      Hello,
      While I do agree with you (I miss the good old days of UO when we didn't have to deal with the instant-gratification-cry-baby generation)
    • Stravanov schrieb:

      Verdandi schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      You guys are talking about it as if halberd is super OP.

      Halberd is not super OP.
      In fact, it is complete trash outside of small gang/solo PvP.

      It just has high mobility. And deals more damage then bows.

      Halberd is good in one single case: open world pvp vs. players who don't have a counter.

      Halberd can't beat all other weapons. It can run away from them. Which is probably what makes you think that halberd is more OP than it is.

      If they just make CC abilities more punishing (I.E. greatly increase the cooldown of the CC remove on medium head (forgot the name)), and rebalance slows across the board so a full medium with a slow on will always move a lot slower than someone who moves at the standard pace, and all of a sudden you actually have counters to halberd.

      The counter to spear/halberd and bows is then simply: any weapon with strong CC.

      The only reason mobility is king right now is that CC is undertuned compared to all the speed increases and CC removal in game.

      Maybe they need to redesign slows altogether so that slows are way more effective at removing speed buffs. So if someone moves at 120% speed and you put a 20% slow on him, the slow is doubled for the first 20%. This would make slows stronger vs. mobility-specced players. But not completely overpowered against players that move at 100% speed.
      the slows in the game are quite weak and are more punishing to already slow targets than mobility builds, though for a weapon with with high ranged and melee aoe, very high single target damage, very high high mobility, and good cc the weapon needs to be toned down. even the with mobility indirectly toned down the damage on the halberd too good for it's range and cc. In contrast the spear has the same mobility lower damage all around and does not have the cc. Either the range the cc or the damage have to be lowered in addition to the counters to mobility. My thought is to take spirit spear off of the halberd as changing it would ruin the other weapons in the line and it does not make sense for the halberd.
      Spear line without spirit spear is 100% useless.
      Also, I am suggesting that slows have more effect on players with positive speed buffs. Exactly so that it doesn't affect people who just move at 100% speed.
      then play spear as the skill has spear in the name and the function of it is ridiculous on halberd.

      I was agreeing with you on that part, sorry I didn't word it quite right.
    • Stravanov schrieb:

      Verdandi schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      Are you guys talking about GvG or open world?

      Mobility in open world and in GvG are two completely different things.
      halberd is mainly an open world weapon and should be very good for it, but it is still op for it.
      I am just wondering why the posts above are talking about a setup where the healer wears leather.
      It sounds like you are talking about GvG all of a sudden. In open world small gang roam, there usually isn't a healer around. And you can't apply the "the team needs to wear leather to counter lack of healing"-logic to open world.
      and* for zergs you are right.

      P.S. I never said the team needs to wear leather.

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von Verdandi ()

    • qvq schrieb:

      Stravanov schrieb:

      Spear line without spirit spear is 100% useless.Also, I am suggesting that slows have more effect on players with positive speed buffs. Exactly so that it doesn't affect people who just move at 100% speed.
      this is very very true prior to the spearline getting spirit spear very few used it and it was a non factor.
      Before spirit spear:
      Halberd had root and minimal dmg

      After spirit spear:
      Halberd had root \ dmg \ speed \ range

      normally jack of all trades can do everything minimally but will never be the best at anything
      so instead of removing spell that gives everything why not tone everything down to alittle less than the other weapon tiers so that it can still do everything but cannot be considered the best at any of them.

      i.e. speed slower than other mobility weps
      -dmg lower than other spike weapons
      -range lower than other range weapons
      -root lower than other root weapons

      this is what a jack of all trades weapon should be not what halberd currently is.

      p.s. forgot to mention
      aoe lower than every other aoe weapon.
      agreed, but Halberd could still be an open world specialist while being a jack of all trades. as for how to make it balanced, having less damage or even just slightly more than the .1 spear wouldn't make sense so the range and mobility should be toned down so the root and damage don't unbalance it.
    • Yes, they obviously need to rebalance spear a bit, since it has just slightly too much of everything.

      I am just opposing the "remove spirit spear altogether"-argument, since it will make the weapon 100% useless.

      And I am not a fan of nerfing its damage so much that it becomes completely useless in PvE also.

      qvq has the right idea:

      qvq schrieb:

      i.e. speed slower than other mobility weps
      -dmg lower than other spike weapons
      -range lower than other range weapons
      -root lower than other root weapons
      Removing spirit spear altogether is too much.

      Maybe remove the root from Halberd, since the root is what makes it impossible for 2 players to counter Halberd. 1 tank with a charge/root/stun/slow and 1 non-mobility DPS should be able to kill a Halberd. Currently they can't, since the Halberd can just root and run away if the other players are lucky enough to get a root in. Or make it super low duration.
    • just the root isn't enough since the speed is too much to be considered "balanced" in terms of the rest of the mobility weapons in game.

      if they leave the speed they need to increase all the rest of them since axe (with new speed buff) and halberd are outmatching the other mobility weapons.

      then there is the range issue of a melee weapon having further range than ranged and magic weapons.

      also the issue of the aoe dmg being higher than some of the other weapons as well.

      once again jack of all trades should be master of none.



      on a side note think i am done discussing balancing issues honestly a lot of this is common sense and i am not being paid to hand hold SI. better to just let them break it and play the op flavor of the month than to waste my time telling them the same things over and over.
      HCN wrote:
      Hello,
      While I do agree with you (I miss the good old days of UO when we didn't have to deal with the instant-gratification-cry-baby generation)
    • qvq schrieb:

      just the root isn't enough since the speed is too much to be considered "balanced" in terms of the rest of the mobility weapons in game.
      if they leave the speed they need to increase all the rest of them since axe (with new speed buff) and halberd are outmatching the other mobility weapons.

      then there is the range issue of a melee weapon having further range than ranged and magic weapons.

      also the issue of the aoe dmg being higher than some of the other weapons as well.

      once again jack of all trades should be master of none.



      on a side note think i am done discussing balancing issues honestly a lot of this is common sense and i am not being paid to hand hold SI. better to just let them break it and play the op flavor of the month than to waste my time telling them the same things over and over.
      Yeye I never said "just" the root. Its like 25% of my posts are posts explaining that I didnt write what people think I write.
    • Stravanov schrieb:

      Yes, they obviously need to rebalance spear a bit, since it has just slightly too much of everything.

      I am just opposing the "remove spirit spear altogether"-argument, since it will make the weapon 100% useless.

      And I am not a fan of nerfing its damage so much that it becomes completely useless in PvE also.

      qvq has the right idea:

      qvq schrieb:

      i.e. speed slower than other mobility weps
      -dmg lower than other spike weapons
      -range lower than other range weapons
      -root lower than other root weapons
      Removing spirit spear altogether is too much.
      Maybe remove the root from Halberd, since the root is what makes it impossible for 2 players to counter Halberd. 1 tank with a charge/root/stun/slow and 1 non-mobility DPS should be able to kill a Halberd. Currently they can't, since the Halberd can just root and run away if the other players are lucky enough to get a root in. Or make it super low duration.
      I was thinking that and buff low stab, but if you and many/most other halberd users are okay with losing all or most of the root that is another option. It would still look weird but it would be better balanced. My concern was/is changing spirit spear to fit halberd as it currently fits .1 spear. There could be a new skill made for halberd's q similar to/based off of spirit spear if it still needs a change.
    • Verdandi schrieb:

      My concern was/is changing spirit spear to fit halberd as it currently fits .1 spear. There could be a new skill made for halberd's q similar to/based off of spirit spear if it still needs a change.
      Yeah, there's no acceptable reason for weapons to share so many of the same abilities just because they happen to be on the same branch of the destiny board.

      In a game with no character-based abilities, only those available from equipment, this just smacks of laziness or an unwillingness to go against the grain of (let alone redesign) the character progression framework.
    • Radicale schrieb:

      Verdandi schrieb:

      My concern was/is changing spirit spear to fit halberd as it currently fits .1 spear. There could be a new skill made for halberd's q similar to/based off of spirit spear if it still needs a change.
      Yeah, there's no acceptable reason for weapons to share so many of the same abilities just because they happen to be on the same branch of the destiny board.
      In a game with no character-based abilities, only those available from equipment, this just smacks of laziness or an unwillingness to go against the grain of (let alone redesign) the character progression framework.
      I agree with these thoughts. Maybe halberd should be detached from spear line for good. That way the spear line would make more sense and it would be easier to make some balancing rework to halberd with new skill(s). Most likely devs have already a plan or implementation for halberd as part of that major destinyboard and gear rework what is coming at beta2.
      I am just the guy who gives you a ride to the underworld.
      How to start build my character?
    • Radicale schrieb:

      Verdandi schrieb:

      My concern was/is changing spirit spear to fit halberd as it currently fits .1 spear. There could be a new skill made for halberd's q similar to/based off of spirit spear if it still needs a change.
      Yeah, there's no acceptable reason for weapons to share so many of the same abilities just because they happen to be on the same branch of the destiny board.
      In a game with no character-based abilities, only those available from equipment, this just smacks of laziness or an unwillingness to go against the grain of (let alone redesign) the character progression framework.
      agreed, and I believe they are going to take a serious look at this soon/by next beta.
    • Vagabond schrieb:

      Easy, just remove the ranged and the speed from Q and keep the root, and then the halberd will be a melee weapon not a shotgun
      That was my thought, but upon further consideration the removal of the attack damage buff self stacking q as an option altogether would be to harsh/take away a playstyle. This could certainly be done as a separate skill to Spirit Spear removing the original from halberd.
    • Light Claymore seems to be a pretty effective counter to the Medium Halberd when played right, I've played against the Light Claymore build as Halberd and played against Halberd as Light Claymore. The Halberd's mobility doesn't mean as much with the Claymore's constant HS charge uptime and hamstrings, plus the new Charge lets the Claymore get some good unavoidable damage.

      Halberd still needs to be tuned down(though hopefully it won't be nerfed all the way down to hell as per usual) as well as some other weapons needing to be buffed up a bit, I just hope SI starts using a lighter touch when balancing out gear to avoid these constant spikes and drops in power for equipment.
    • Abaddon_Rull schrieb:

      Light Claymore seems to be a pretty effective counter to the Medium Halberd when played right, I've played against the Light Claymore build as Halberd and played against Halberd as Light Claymore. The Halberd's mobility doesn't mean as much with the Claymore's constant HS charge uptime and hamstrings, plus the new Charge lets the Claymore get some good unavoidable damage.

      Halberd still needs to be tuned down(though hopefully it won't be nerfed all the way down to hell as per usual) as well as some other weapons needing to be buffed up a bit, I just hope SI starts using a lighter touch when balancing out gear to avoid these constant spikes and drops in power for equipment.
      Good example of the rock/paper/scissor-system.

      The problem is that the game doesn't promote levelling up several weapons. Players generally have to specialise. So everybody picks flavor of the month, just to make sure they don't lose out. This leaves very few players on the "non meta"-weapons. The community doesn't realize this. So they won't even discover counters to the current flavor of the month.