Dagger Branch is Underpowered

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    • Dagger Branch is Underpowered

      SUBJECT/HEADER: Dagger, Dagger Pair, and Claws are Underpowered

      SHORT DESCRIPTION: The problems with the Dagger Branch is not one of numbers, as in increase damage of Q by X%, but of mechanics. Staying in a fight long enough for Poison Coating to do damage is not possible, Stacking Q's for Slit Throat is not possible, and Claws are useless after their 30 CD E, and it is very easily interrupted.
      URGENCY: This is urgent to fix as many people use these items that seem to be fun, but once you PvP with them, realize they are horrible and not fun to use.

      ARGUMANTATION:

      The root problem of the dagger branch is that Melee is broken. The fact that melee have to stop to auto-attack and cast instant abilities, means that against any moving target they have to stop to cast, then catch up to their target again, this is further compounded by abundance of slows and CC on ranged weapons to the point that the only viable melee weapons are those who can get the job done without "sticking" to their targets or have the ability to "stick" to their targets. Lets breakdown these conditions by weapons:

      Sword: The new Heroic Strike gives a movement speed buff that allows for the a increased movement speed thereby decreasing the time it takes to catch up to a target. This would be a weapon that is able to "stick" to their target.

      Axe: Scythe is able to deal all of it's burst with 2 abilities, this means that so long as they get that two ability combo off, they can be kited while that combo is on cooldown and not lose any effective power. This is an example of the former. Getting everything done before the problems of melee come into effect.

      Mace: This weapon get both sticking power and instant usefulness. Two charges on W allow you to stick, and main power of E can be used without a ramp up.

      Hammer: They get a spammable slow, a charge, and CC.

      Spear: Spammable Slow, Pull In, Root, Sprint.

      QS: Sprint + Stun, Dash, Stun on Q and passive.

      Daggers: No CC (I am not counting infiltration will explain below.) No mobility (Am not counting dash, will explain below). No AoE. Can't stick to a target, damage is contingent on sticking to target.


      So this is the punchline: Every melee weapon, other than daggers, either can be effective as soon as they enter melee range, or they possess some ability to aid them in staying within melee range.

      Lets talk E's.

      Poison Coating;
      [*]Similar in damage, cooldown, and energy cost of Heavy Smash, Heavy Smash is instant and provides a very valuable debuff.
      [*]Poison Coating requires 5 auto-attacks to deal full damage, but does not have the tools to actually auto-attack a target 5 times.
      • Between kiting and the inherent chunkiness of melee, you are lucky to get 3 auto-attacks off.

      • Does too little damage considering how hard it is to use.
      [/list]Slit Throat;
      • Similar in function, damage, energy cost, and CD as Death Mark.
      • Death Mark is viable because of 3 things:
        • Curse Q is ranged.
        • Death Mark is delayed, meaning you can cast it when it is convenient, not just after stack 3 Qs.
      • Cleanse does not drop Qs.
      • In summary Death Mark is viable because it is not melee. It is not subject to that disadvantage.
      • Slit Throat requires 3 Qs to deal max effect. Now obvious it is balanced around there being a ramp up time when those Qs are stacked.
        • What doesn't see balanced around is how hard it is to stack Qs. Now normally you would say 3 second Q CD, means 6 seconds after first Q you have 3 stacks and can E.
        • Enter peels, cleanse, and kite.
          • While it can take as little as 6 seconds it is on average 10-12 given the stacks are cleansed. Between slows and minor CC you have to make up distance kited. Given the stacks don't fall off, you will get 3 stacks in 10 seconds.
          • This never happens. The stacks will be Ice Blocked, Stone Skinned, Cleansed. You will be kited until they fall off. To the point where against any group pvp against any decent team, you will never get a 3 stack E. It just won't happen given the time required, and the telegraphic nature of the ability.

      Claws;
      These are bad for a simple reason, you get interrupted as soon as you use E, all your damage and utility is on E, and E is on a long CD.[*]Once E is interrupted you are useless for 30 seconds.
      [*]E is always interrupted
      [*]Therefore, Claws are always useless.
      [/list]Universal Traits:

      Q: Damage and debuff isn't really the problem, even though they both are bad.
      [*]Q's problem comes from cooldown and cleansability.
      [*]Similar to Rending Strike in that the E of one of the weapons requires the Q to be stacked up. Rending Strike is on a 2 second CD which means the ease to get to 3 stacks is easier.
      [*]The fact the debuff can be cleansed off means that you will have to do between 4-6 Q's before E. The damage of Slit Throat is balanced around 3 Q's not 6 so unless you double E damage this needs to be reworked.
      [/list]W: Dash and Infiltration
      [*]Dash is bad because of it's distance, energy cost, and speed.
      • When a standard sprint can outrun the dash, that is bad. When you dash to chase a target, you should not be further away from them than if you just sprinted.
      [*]Infiltration is bad because of its delay (ease of dodging) and because its a sleep.
      • 3 second delay (maybe 2) is just horrible given that you can't cancel it and in most cases will end up putting you in a worse position than you started.
      • Add on top of that the fact that sleep is 100% uselss as it will instantly break in group content and in solo content it is useless.
      [/list]Passives:
      • Energy on Hit: Good, but way to random. I have gone 20 hits without a proc, and then got 5 in a row.
      • Auto Attack Damage: Some what pointless as you don't really get many opportunities to auto attack as you will be spamming abilities.
      Base Stats:

      • Only melee without health and health regen.



      Suggestions:

      Q:
      • Self-Buff that stacks 3 times, Like Heroic Strike. Maybe one that increases Attack Speed or Movement Speed. Put it on a 2 Second CD with 5 second Duration.


      W:

      [*]Remove Both. They are both so bad and frustrating to use.
      • Copy and paste Forceful Charge or Stun Run for the first W.

      • Second W is Dash + Invisibility for 5 seconds.
      [/list]E: Poison Coating

      • Next 5 auto attacks deal bonus damage, and stack a slow on the target.
      • Give them the stickiness required to actually be useful.
      E: Slit Throat

      • Q changes with better W's would fix this ability.
      E: Disembowel

      • Either make it a stun
      • Or make it an instant cast root + bleed on a lower CD like 20 seconds.
      Passives:

      • Give it a health passive.
      • Energy on Hit: Change to Energy ever X Autos. 2 Energy Per Auto, or just Reduced Energy for Abilities.
      • Slow on Hit, Bleed on Hit, either of the Torch Passives, Chance on Hit for Increased ability damage, Stun on Hit. Movement speed.
      TLDR: Daggers need mobility and limited CC. They need a Q rework that is similar to Heroic Strike on Swords.
    • Xaceo schrieb:

      Totaly agree with that..
      Also i could suggest as an alternative about sleep - to make it instant and stack 1 stack of q, but make the duration shorter.. this would give some more of cc that dagger are lacking.
      Honestly, I don't think it would.

      Sleep is a very bad CC now that every ability deals damage.

      You used to be able to Infiltrate into a Root Prison, but now that it does 1 damage a tick you can't.

      I'd rather have a slow than a sleep.
    • Wynta schrieb:

      Xaceo schrieb:

      Totaly agree with that..
      Also i could suggest as an alternative about sleep - to make it instant and stack 1 stack of q, but make the duration shorter.. this would give some more of cc that dagger are lacking.
      Honestly, I don't think it would.
      Sleep is a very bad CC now that every ability deals damage.

      You used to be able to Infiltrate into a Root Prison, but now that it does 1 damage a tick you can't.

      I'd rather have a slow than a sleep.
      Yes, but sleep insta sleep would make it usable in teamfights, when u chasing enemies , then sleep them so yours team could catch up.. also in solo play so u can escape big ganks. Now sleep is not usable because it is easy to avoid it.
    • I tested it, i can one shot my self with my Slit Throat ability if the other guy uses Retaliate, even if i had full hp. I tested it in a duel i killed him then me second because the Retaliate has a 2nd priority and theres a bug when people die near the same time in where the 2nd person who dies actually lose durability and drop coins.
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    • Counter point: Slit throat is the most op solo pvp- E skill in the game if you can pull it off. Death Curse is actually hard/ not viable to pull off against good players, simply because it has a relatively long cast time and maximum range of 1 screen (if you blink out of the player's range while he's casting it, the spell will be broken; you can also aa the player for a good 2-3 seconds to delay the casting).
      The only way your changes would be balanced is if they nerfed slit throat damage by 40-50%. Dual dagger lacks the ability to stick to players because it can 3 shot players even with a 2 tier gear difference. I do agree that they need to be reworked, but giving them the ability to stick to players for long periods of time while mantaining the same E skills is not the way to go.
    • Ferevus schrieb:

      Counter point: Slit throat is the most op solo pvp- E skill in the game if you can pull it off. Death Curse is actually hard/ not viable to pull off against good players, simply because it has a relatively long cast time and maximum range of 1 screen (if you blink out of the player's range while he's casting it, the spell will be broken; you can also aa the player for a good 2-3 seconds to delay the casting).
      The only way your changes would be balanced is if they nerfed slit throat damage by 40-50%. Dual dagger lacks the ability to stick to players because it can 3 shot players even with a 2 tier gear difference. I do agree that they need to be reworked, but giving them the ability to stick to players for long periods of time while mantaining the same E skills is not the way to go.
      It's no point to test in a duel, you never gonna get all 3 stack to get the max damage from slit throat, because it's very easy to counter dagger.. (with such skills like - stealth, cleanse, blink, reflect, ice block..)
    • Xaceo schrieb:

      Ferevus schrieb:

      Counter point: Slit throat is the most op solo pvp- E skill in the game if you can pull it off. Death Curse is actually hard/ not viable to pull off against good players, simply because it has a relatively long cast time and maximum range of 1 screen (if you blink out of the player's range while he's casting it, the spell will be broken; you can also aa the player for a good 2-3 seconds to delay the casting).
      The only way your changes would be balanced is if they nerfed slit throat damage by 40-50%. Dual dagger lacks the ability to stick to players because it can 3 shot players even with a 2 tier gear difference. I do agree that they need to be reworked, but giving them the ability to stick to players for long periods of time while mantaining the same E skills is not the way to go.
      It's no point to test in a duel, you never gonna get all 3 stack to get the max damage from slit throat, because it's very easy to counter dagger.. (with such skills like - stealth, cleanse, blink, reflect, ice block..)
      Never said to test it in a duel. I'm talking about open world PvP.
    • Best sum-up of the dagger issues ever.

      Concerning Infitration :

      Wynta schrieb:

      ...
      [*]Infiltration is bad because of its delay (ease of dodging) and because its a sleep.
      • 3 second delay (maybe 2) is just horrible given that you can't cancel it and in most cases will end up putting you in a worse position than you started.
      • Add on top of that the fact that sleep is 100% uselss as it will instantly break in group content and in solo content it is useless.


      Problem is also, everybody sees where you will throw your Smoke Bomb at - it would be kind of a suprise Blink with Stun if not everybody would see it comming to evade. True that sleeps brake easily in roam PVP with lots of AOE but it would have it's place in Solo or GvG fights where targets are callable.

      Like your post - Daggers should be the melee pongdon of Cursed staffs I think
    • I think a major problem with the dagger tree w is how buggy it can be; namely the dash. It is suppose to be another gap closer or way to stay on a target. I would recommend taking that away in favour of a low power sprint. Say for example 50% move speed for 4 seconds. Not something you can run people down with but something where if they are not sprinting you can stick to them. That gives the same draw back of solid cc being a counter while removing the inherent problem of not being able to stick to someone. As for the q+e interaction; I don't feel that this should be messed with too much. The current trade off of dagger q compared to cursed q is that the dagger shreds resistances while the cursed has a dot. Personally I think it is silly that you cannot cleanse dots so I won't get into that. Perhaps give dagger e less distance of low stack damage (0 stacks and 1 stack being not so pitifully bad). Though honestly I feel that if you give daggers a built in run they would be much more sticky without the need to become a cc bot. Dagger tree should be played as an fringe fighting class that once an opening appears can quickly drop a dps. As for the sleep, if it was not visible to enemies it would be in a good place. Lets humour these changes and say that the tree is still an awful choice; I think the next place to look at would be adjusting q to stack maybe 1 second faster so you can set up your nuke quickly to punish poor positioning.
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    • seems to me after playing for awhile that melee dps in general is just a bad liability currently, as in the innate disadvantage of constantly risking your positioning in order to do damage when ranged dps can do equal or greater damage without taking the same risks

      either melee dps needs a significant boost, ranged dps needs a significant nerf, or melee dps altogether as a concept needs to be scrapped and they are relegated to just CC roles with abilities complimenting them as such

      most pvp games melee dps have a significant advantage over ranged dps due to the constant positioning risks

      everything im referencing is in the context of medium to large scale pvp of course

      Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von basia ()

    • I couldn't agree more with the mentioned above in this post. I've been playing Dagger Pair for a week and during all the pvp with 5 or more people, the Dagger Pair just can't do anything useful.

      If you try to get into their lines to do damage, you get toasted.
      If you are not toasted, you need to stack up 2-3 'Q' to get to ultimate with an 'E'. Let's say you are successful, by the time you do it, you're gonna be toasted when leaving. Even thou you are not likely to kill your target, but surely you will be very vulnerable to get into and to get out.

      What Wynta suggested seems a very very good starting point to me.

      Bottom line what am I asking is to make Dagger Pair available for larger PvPs or just tell the player that since the beginning of the game that you don't want to make it worth to PvP.