A quick test on the new combat fame #'s.

  • Jiav wrote:

    Razial wrote:

    Hazmy wrote:

    Cursis wrote:

    Hazmy wrote:

    So for people who don't care about hardcore players : If we are able to grind T8 too fast, you are going to fill the forums with your tears, for us ganking you all in our boredom.
    There is a problem with your idea here... if you can grind to t8 quickly, then the casual player will not be that far behind.. if it is too much a grind fest then people won't even bother trying to catch up to hardcore grinders they will instead quit the game.
    And the problem with your idea is : Hardcore people sometimes play 40h straight, can you say the same about casuals? ^^ So I can safely say, casual people will be way behind.
    People playing 40h straight aren't hardcore. They are way out of scale and unimportant in terms of grind balancing for hardcore / casual players.Funny though that these players really think they are the core of the game and rules and settings should be mostly applying to them.
    Welcome to mmos, the "hardcores" don't pay for the server, the mass of "casuals" does. 3% of wow pop raids mythic, blizzard has already stated the game is not designed for them. Same goes for every other mmo or even the general market. Mobile games> computer games, guess why, yes beccause casuals are paying. Without a good amount of casual players your game cannot grow, you can't work with a hardcore basis alone, since no one even knows what the hardcore base is, also these players tend to quick rather quit as soon as something new and shiny is their sights, crowfall, black desert, shards online, etc.pp.

    No offense, but i don't get your post and why you're quoting me.

    And "mobile games > computer games" is not a good comparison, because mobile games can never have the depth of a computer game in a long run. You can't play this game seriously on a tablet for example, if you don't want to stick to the green zones gathering and crafting stuff. Actually i think, trying to make the game mobile friendly, kills it in the end anyway.
  • People get so passionate about this casual vs hardcore thing and yet fail to see the big picture.

    It's absolutely irrelevant if you'll hit max lvl in 4 months or 35 years. Adding 1 or 50 extra tiers of gear is very easy. They just paint the models a different colour, add 15% more dmg and suddenly you have another 6 months of "progress"
    What actually matters for the game's longevity is that the game is making money - and whether you like it or not the first 1-2 months will be crucial for that. Adding a progress obstacle in the form of a fame wall is not hardcore, it's called lack of content.

    Don't get me wrong; I am a hardcore player and I love grindy games but honestly my biggest worry for this title is an empty server after one month or developers being fired at SI.
    I would rather have more "newbies" running around in t6 rather than don't have them at all.

    At the end of the day IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SYSTEM THEY IMPLEMENT. I will be ahead of the pack and will be using my uber skills to decimate people that are X tiers below me.
  • There is no wall, because there's no need to get on the other side. You can play at tier 5-6 and be extremely relevant. If you make it easy to progress and just keep increasing the top tier, you have a themepark model on your hands. In the end that does nothing to further the purpose of exclusivity, which is critical in a sandbox game.

    The idea is to mimic real life, in a fantasy setting. People need to be able to distinguish themselves.
    The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe.

    - Nietzsche
  • Harming wrote:

    Korn wrote:

    Hi Harming,

    thanks for the feedback.

    To bring an entire set of gear (boots, chest, helmet, 2h weapon or 1h+oh) from 3.1 to 8.6, you would need

    Without LP:
    • 106.376.215 fame
    • This corresponds to around 1.900 hours played w/o premium and 1266 with premium
    • Assuming that you power grind (no break!) for 4 hours per day, including weekends, it will take you 322 days
    With LP
    • You need 3400 LP to get one full set from 3.1 to 8.6
    • As you get 20 LP per day, the LP would take 170 days to generate
    • LP would reduce your grind requirements from 1266 hours to 313 hours.
    • So, if you do pure grind for 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, it would take you 31 weeks, i.e. 217 days, to get one gear set to 8.6
    Is that too easy? Judge for yourself
    • Currently, there are 45 different weapons in the game. With our enchanting rework, all of them will go to tier 8.6
    • Maxing out all of them, assuming no LP, will take 39 years of grind if you grind for 4 hours per day
    • With LP, to max out all of them, you would need 76,500 LP. It would take you more than 10 years to get that amount of LP. On top of that, you would have to grind for around 4 hours per day, each day, during those 10 years on top of that
    • For armors, as there are 9 different ones (which will become truly different after the rework), it would be "just" 8 years of grind without LP and 2 years with LP, provided that you grind for 4 hours per day, each day, during those 2 years
    • The above assumes that you use 0 LP for gathering, refining and crafting.
    All the best,
    Korn
    Wow. Our numbers are off by alot. I actually calculated it to take a lot longer off of my 1 hour test, assuming im aiming to max one set of gear.I also calculated in using LP for each unlock + premium status. Are you basing your calculations off of T10 mobs fame by chance?I cannot see reaching that 26Million exp goal in just 313 hours, that would average out to 83k fame per hour.
    What am i missing here?

    Hi Harming,

    the missing assumption is that there will be mobs up to power level 13. Fame increases by 50% per power level.

    All the best,
    Korn
  • All I care about is that people will still need to specialize, rather than have everyone running around with two or three weapon max or close to max and 2 or 3 different kind of armor to swap with ease. Right now, people have two or three different weapon at a very high level. And this leads to the flavor of the months scenario most people don't like. During release weapons and armor will need to be tuned very lightly, no one wants to lose all of their progress but also I don't think we want people to be able to just switch to any weapon without much effort. Whatever the fame requirement is just make sure you still force people to specialize and focus on one weapon to max, or a few weapons to have high enough but not max if they want to be able to swap between weapons at any time.
  • Harming wrote:

    EyceAether wrote:

    8.6 down a specific line in a few months. What happens if you want to switch to something else?

    And get the fuck out of here with that lame ass IQ jab, any idiot that needs to point to IQ scores in order to justify their " intelligence" obviously has no idea what an IQ is even indicative of. You didn't even include the math to show how you got to your 2-3+ month estimate. Nor did you take any other factors into account, such as resource scarcity and people making higher tier gear for you to use so you can level up to higher tiers.

    While it's OK to make assumptions, if you consider yourself so smart you should make damn well sure that you let your reader know about your assumptions before you continue with them.
    Math :
    You can find overall fame values needed by taking the board values and multiplying by 1/4th or .25

    For this example lets start with 4.3-5.3 since it now requires t5+ mobs.

    If you take all of the values from 4.3 to 8.6 adding them after multiplying each value by .25 (Not adding then multiplying the entire total which would give a negative value) you come up with a grand total of :

    26,501,558 fame needed to bridge this gap using Learning points at the exact 1/4th mark on each tier.

    Also you will need a total of :408 LP for a weapon in this example to cover those tiers. *which becomes a non-factor looking at data below*

    Now Lets take that number and make some meaning out of it.

    With my previous test on a 1 hour grind of T6 mobs solo in a yellow zone with multiple people farming i achieved a rate of around 15k fame in an hour.

    Now dividing The total fame needed for 4.3 - 8.3 by the fame per hour gain off of the t6 mob grind gives us a total of 1817 hours needed of in-game grind to achieve this fame requirement.

    *notice this is only on t6 mobs, the devs plan to implement t10+ mobs in green/yellow zones in future patches so this will significantly speed up this number*

    Now on average i will log between 12-14 hours a day playtime. If i dedicate all of this time to grinding, which i most likely will untill the 6.3 mark. We can find the number of days it will require to achieve this fame.

    *lets go with 12 hours for the best result.

    1817 hours / 12 hours = 151 days of grind time.

    Or assuming the average 30 day month / 5 months of game play.

    * Now for all of these calculations i took the low-ball estimates of the variables, the 12 hour day as well as t6 fame base.
    Realistically with all things considered i would assume it will take me closer to 4 months total to reach the absolute top tier gear in a required field at the current rates.


    So to Recap: 4.3-8.6 gear
    Total Fame needed: 26,510,558
    LP Needed: 408
    Fame / Hour off of T6 test sample: ~15k
    Total Hours: 1817
    Assuming 12 hour days: 151 days
    Assuming 30 day months: 5 months.



    Findings: This 151 day figure is comparable to the Runescape (oldschool) all 99's achievement, most of the top end players require between 190-210 days played to achieve a full set of 99 skills, so you can take a look at their leader-boards here 2277 totals = all 99's to see that many players will achieve this.


    * ah an edit i almost forgot. Waiting on gear gates is meaningless if played correctly. I run 3 accounts and 9 characters atm to play self-sufficiently. I plan to do a similar strategy, slightly tweaked for launch.

    *a second edit to explain a posted point of LP becoming a non-factor. Within those 5 months of time you will accumulate a total of 3000 LP, which will allow you to max your armors along with your weapon of choice as well as any gathering / refining / crafting you need to sustain due to each character having his own separate 3k LP to draw from.
    Much appreciated, and see what happens when you do stuff like that?

    You get an admin response :D!
  • Oh great.. here we go again..

    Everyone take warning that @UnknownXV is crazy. I mean damn near clinical and will lawyer the idea that no one should progress to the top tier but the most absolutely die hard dedicated 90+ hour a week player pumping years into this game.

    Stop quoting him, stop arguing with him, it isn't constructive and he'll just keep regurgitating the same putrid shit all over this thread if you do.

    @Korn - What you described above looks good. It puts quite a lot of players, averaging around 20-25 hours a week at a little over a year out before hitting top potential. That works. Thank you.
  • Slaw wrote:

    Oh great.. here we go again..

    Everyone take warning that @UnknownXV is crazy. I mean damn near clinical and will lawyer the idea that no one should progress to the top tier but the most absolutely die hard dedicated 90+ hour a week player pumping years into this game.

    Stop quoting him, stop arguing with him, it isn't constructive and he'll just keep regurgitating the same putrid shit all over this thread if you do.

    @Korn - What you described above looks good. It puts quite a lot of players, averaging around 20-25 hours a week at a little over a year out before hitting top potential. That works. Thank you.
    @Slaw And you want all players to get to endgame gear and resources in week or month ? Welp there would be nobody after that month to play this game. Boooo
    Member & Officier of pYco guild - Join us! Here
    I'm not forum Moderator and im not working for SI. I'm forum user as U. If I can help you then I will.
  • a game should be able to keep its players by fun and excitung content. not a year long grind that will turn off casual players. why would anyone want to play a game that would take a year to reach equal playing field as others? i assure you if this is the case you will slowly see a decrease in playerbase until servers are dead. anyone remeber darkfall?
  • Korn wrote:

    Hi Harming,

    thanks for the feedback.

    To bring an entire set of gear (boots, chest, helmet, 2h weapon or 1h+oh) from 3.1 to 8.6, you would need

    Without LP:
    • 106.376.215 fame
    • This corresponds to around 1.900 hours played w/o premium and 1266 with premium
    • Assuming that you power grind (no break!) for 4 hours per day, including weekends, it will take you 322 days
    With LP
    • You need 3400 LP to get one full set from 3.1 to 8.6
    • As you get 20 LP per day, the LP would take 170 days to generate
    • LP would reduce your grind requirements from 1266 hours to 313 hours.
    • So, if you do pure grind for 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, it would take you 31 weeks, i.e. 217 days, to get one gear set to 8.6
    Is that too easy? Judge for yourself
    • Currently, there are 45 different weapons in the game. With our enchanting rework, all of them will go to tier 8.6
    • Maxing out all of them, assuming no LP, will take 39 years of grind if you grind for 4 hours per day
    • With LP, to max out all of them, you would need 76,500 LP. It would take you more than 10 years to get that amount of LP. On top of that, you would have to grind for around 4 hours per day, each day, during those 10 years on top of that
    • For armors, as there are 9 different ones (which will become truly different after the rework), it would be "just" 8 years of grind without LP and 2 years with LP, provided that you grind for 4 hours per day, each day, during those 2 years
    • The above assumes that you use 0 LP for gathering, refining and crafting.
    All the best,
    Korn
    This sounds more than reasonable to me. First, we don't want things to be so specialized that there is no variation in your gameplay over the course of years. In every other kind of MMO, there are different builds, specs, weapons/types. If we force people to only have the ability to keep 1 weapon and set of armor on the curve, with the same few spells available to them, they will burn out and I don't think many/any will restart the grind from scratch, they will just fade out. No, people shouldn't be able to master everything but giving them the ability to keep a few weapons viable is smart and will keep people interested and playing.

    Additionally, everyone is acting like grinding is the point of this game. While it is an aspect, the overall point is pvp, gvg, roaming, skirmishing, trading, territory control, resource control, scouting, controlling hellgates, etc. Grinding is a means to an end, and as soon as it becomes the end in itself people will leave.

    Also, gear should not be your replacement for skill. If you are counting on out grinding everyone with your ungodly amount of work-free time and counting on that to be your only leg up, you've got the point of the game all wrong. There should be incentives to grind, and there are, but don't fall into the trap that you should be able to out no-life people instead of building up skills and learning the game and how to pvp in it.