Daggers are useless at this moment

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  • Ok, just to give you another point of view and to leave my 2 cents. Claws are the most frustrating thing ever as light user atleast in open world pvp. My 2. character currently is a full movement orientated Frost Mage with medium helmet (defensiveless rush), light chest (blink), medium boots (rush), which I wouldnt consider an easy target because of max movement especially when already sitting on a hose. None the less if I happen to see a claw user on my screen who didnt already blew up all his cd's I am most certain dead. It also doesnt matter if its a medium or light chest claw user he can keep up with horses or whatever movement abilitys and as soon as he got you with his channel you are dead for sure. Its even worse if your sitting on a horse because then you cant even hope to lose him by hiding in the short amount of time you might manage to get off screen, which really feels wrong. Things definatly might be different with force field or iceblock but those again are too bad in too many open world scenarios and still woudlnt help if your caught on a horse because your getting thrown off too late or have cd's after demounting. That whole Claw thing really made me think about a medium chest frost mage with invis.

    Dont get me wrong I totaly can see claws being useless in other cases but just because you cant use an ability straight away every time doesnt mean its bad. From the point of view of my frost mage claws totaly needs to be nerfed because your dead on sight and cant do anything about it (unless your willing to bring skills that screw you against everything else in open world pvp). If you dont have a stun that channeling ability really feels too strong. your rooted for ever and on top of that lose like 60-70% of your hp by just one skill.

    Sure, Claws should be good against light chests but I also dont think it should mean certain death on sight. The main reason for me going for full mobility was to somehow have a chance to get away while gathering and at the same time having a chance to catch people running away and yeah its already light years better at that than my first char who used heavy armor but I am telling you Claws are frustrating.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by bLub ().

  • bLub wrote:

    Ok, just to give you another point of view and to leave my 2 cents. Claws are the most frustrating thing ever as light user atleast in open world pvp. My 2. character currently is a full movement orientated Frost Mage with medium helmet (defensiveless rush), light chest (blink), medium boots (rush), which I wouldnt consider an easy target because of max movement especially when already sitting on a hose. None the less if I happen to see a claw user on my screen who didnt already blew up all his cd's I am most certain dead. It also doesnt matter if its a medium or light chest claw user he can keep up with horses or whatever movement abilitys and as soon as he got you with his channel you are dead for sure. Its even worse if your sitting on a horse because then you cant even hope to lose him by hiding in the short amount of time you might manage to get off screen, which really feels wrong. Things definatly might be different with force field or iceblock but those again are too bad in too many open world scenarios and still woudlnt help if your caught on a horse because your getting thrown off too late or have cd's after demounting. That whole Claw thing really made me think about a medium chest frost mage with invis.

    Dont get me wrong I totaly can see claws being useless in other cases but just because you cant use an ability straight away every time doesnt mean its bad. From the point of view of my frost mage claws totaly needs to be nerfed because your dead on sight and cant do anything about it (unless your willing to bring skills that screw you against everything else in open world pvp). If you dont have a stun that channeling ability really feels too strong. your rooted for ever and on top of that lose like 60-70% of your hp by just one skill.

    Sure, Claws should be good against light chests but I also dont think it should mean certain death on sight. The main reason for me going for full mobility was to somehow have a chance to get away while gathering and at the same time having a chance to catch people running away and yeah its already light years better at that than my first char who used heavy armor but I am telling you Claws are frustrating.
    Sigh

    You can just blink out of the root, or stoneskin it. It's the easiest skill to counter in the game, every chest piece has a counter to it. Heavy anti-cc doesn't work agaisn't the root but I think that's a bug.

    Claws are good to catch people and zerg them down, that's pretty much it.

  • kekeeke wrote:

    bLub wrote:

    Ok, just to give you another point of view and to leave my 2 cents. Claws are the most frustrating thing ever as light user atleast in open world pvp. My 2. character currently is a full movement orientated Frost Mage with medium helmet (defensiveless rush), light chest (blink), medium boots (rush), which I wouldnt consider an easy target because of max movement especially when already sitting on a hose. None the less if I happen to see a claw user on my screen who didnt already blew up all his cd's I am most certain dead. It also doesnt matter if its a medium or light chest claw user he can keep up with horses or whatever movement abilitys and as soon as he got you with his channel you are dead for sure. Its even worse if your sitting on a horse because then you cant even hope to lose him by hiding in the short amount of time you might manage to get off screen, which really feels wrong. Things definatly might be different with force field or iceblock but those again are too bad in too many open world scenarios and still woudlnt help if your caught on a horse because your getting thrown off too late or have cd's after demounting. That whole Claw thing really made me think about a medium chest frost mage with invis.

    Dont get me wrong I totaly can see claws being useless in other cases but just because you cant use an ability straight away every time doesnt mean its bad. From the point of view of my frost mage claws totaly needs to be nerfed because your dead on sight and cant do anything about it (unless your willing to bring skills that screw you against everything else in open world pvp). If you dont have a stun that channeling ability really feels too strong. your rooted for ever and on top of that lose like 60-70% of your hp by just one skill.

    Sure, Claws should be good against light chests but I also dont think it should mean certain death on sight. The main reason for me going for full mobility was to somehow have a chance to get away while gathering and at the same time having a chance to catch people running away and yeah its already light years better at that than my first char who used heavy armor but I am telling you Claws are frustrating.
    Sigh
    You can just blink out of the root, or stoneskin it. It's the easiest skill to counter in the game, every chest piece has a counter to it. Heavy anti-cc doesn't work agaisn't the root but I think that's a bug.

    Claws are good to catch people and zerg them down, that's pretty much it.
    I will especially quote you on "Sigh". You can use blink while the channeling, yes but your still rooted after the blink and still receive the full damage which is around 60-70% of your max hp which means your dead because no matter how much movement speed you have, the claws will catch up and get you. So, actually blink can be used while the channel but doesnt do anything good, actually its even better to keep it and get off screen with it, so you can maybe if he does a couple of mistakes use that to run into another direction or something. Also if your mounted while he gets you with his channel you cant do anything at all, not even use a stoneskin poton because your getting dismounted when you already lost way too much hp and that is something that absolutly needs to be looked at. It never should be any kind of disadvantage to sit on a mount when your trying to get away, you probably should be able to dismount without cd`s or something as soon as you have received any or a certain amount of pvp damage.

    And as already mentioned Forcefield and Iceblock can both cancel it but are basicly no viable option in most other open world pvp scenarios. Also just being able to cancel the channel doesnt mean that your getting away, no the claws will still hunt you down if your not very cloth to a town or something.

  • You should rarely be mounted in a red zone unless running away from people. This isn't a problem with claws, it's a problem with mounts.

    You can preload blink and insta cancel his E after 1 attack. I used blink before and it's what I did (before realizing how bad light armor is).

    Claws are good at ganking and catching people. In teamfights or even duels they are ok, noway are they OP with this many counters.

  • kekeeke wrote:

    You should rarely be mounted in a red zone unless running away from people. This isn't a problem with claws, it's a problem with mounts.

    You can preload blink and insta cancel his E after 1 attack. I used blink before and it's what I did (before realizing how bad light armor is).

    Claws are good at ganking and catching people. In teamfights or even duels they are ok, noway are they OP with this many counters.
    You can NOT cancel the channeling with Blink. You are still rooted after the blink and still receive the full damage. You can use Blink while the channel but it does NOT cancel the root or prevent the damage.

    I disagree with you should rarely be mounted in red zones. If you are looking for pvp or running around with a bigger group, then yes you should rarely be mounted but if you are trying to avoid pvp, you should be mounted as much as possible actually, especially if your gathering or stuff. Also saying you should rarely be mounted unless you are running away doesnt make sense in our scenario because I am actually trying to run away from claws.

  • bLub wrote:

    kekeeke wrote:

    You should rarely be mounted in a red zone unless running away from people. This isn't a problem with claws, it's a problem with mounts.

    You can preload blink and insta cancel his E after 1 attack. I used blink before and it's what I did (before realizing how bad light armor is).

    Claws are good at ganking and catching people. In teamfights or even duels they are ok, noway are they OP with this many counters.
    You can NOT cancel the channeling with Blink. You are still rooted after the blink and still receive the full damage. You can use Blink while the channel but it does NOT cancel the root or prevent the damage.
    I disagree with you should rarely be mounted in red zones. If you are looking for pvp or running around with a bigger group, then yes you should rarely be mounted but if you are trying to avoid pvp, you should be mounted as much as possible actually, especially if your gathering or stuff. Also saying you should rarely be mounted unless you are running away doesnt make sense in our scenario because I am actually trying to run away from claws.
    So claws users were just panicking and canceling their roots when I would blink away? That'd be interesting. I need to test it.

    This happened multiple times especially since I was a healer in light and they just always went for me.

    That been said the best way (and actually the only way) to get away in this game is using all your mobility skills and then mounting up. Being on a mount and meeting pks is a sure way to die.

  • bLub wrote:

    Ok, just to give you another point of view and to leave my 2 cents. Claws are the most frustrating thing ever as light user atleast in open world pvp. My 2. character currently is a full movement orientated Frost Mage with medium helmet (defensiveless rush), light chest (blink), medium boots (rush), which I wouldnt consider an easy target because of max movement especially when already sitting on a hose. None the less if I happen to see a claw user on my screen who didnt already blew up all his cd's I am most certain dead. It also doesnt matter if its a medium or light chest claw user he can keep up with horses or whatever movement abilitys and as soon as he got you with his channel you are dead for sure. Its even worse if your sitting on a horse because then you cant even hope to lose him by hiding in the short amount of time you might manage to get off screen, which really feels wrong. Things definatly might be different with force field or iceblock but those again are too bad in too many open world scenarios and still woudlnt help if your caught on a horse because your getting thrown off too late or have cd's after demounting. That whole Claw thing really made me think about a medium chest frost mage with invis.

    Dont get me wrong I totaly can see claws being useless in other cases but just because you cant use an ability straight away every time doesnt mean its bad. From the point of view of my frost mage claws totaly needs to be nerfed because your dead on sight and cant do anything about it (unless your willing to bring skills that screw you against everything else in open world pvp). If you dont have a stun that channeling ability really feels too strong. your rooted for ever and on top of that lose like 60-70% of your hp by just one skill.

    Sure, Claws should be good against light chests but I also dont think it should mean certain death on sight. The main reason for me going for full mobility was to somehow have a chance to get away while gathering and at the same time having a chance to catch people running away and yeah its already light years better at that than my first char who used heavy armor but I am telling you Claws are frustrating.
    ice block or knockback on chest and you just neutered all the damage.

  • Ok, Im sorry I didnt mean to spam this thread. Actually just wanted you claw guys to take in consideration the other side because that can feel kinda frustating and on top of that all the guys I know that are using claws seem perfectly fine with them and have a lot of kill fame.

    Wynta wrote:

    ice block or knockback on chest and you just neutered all the damage.

    bLub wrote:

    And as already mentioned Forcefield and Iceblock can both cancel it but are basicly no viable option in most other open world pvp scenarios. Also just being able to cancel the channel doesnt mean that your getting away, no the claws will still hunt you down if your not very cloth to a town or something.
    Yes, I know it can but in my opinion they are not good overall for open world pvp If your running around in a smaller group because they still do not necessarily save you against claws and are both not great to get away from anything else. Iceblock is basicly not useable for open world in most cases which is already stated in a couple of other threads and knockback often needs your enemies to be too close so it only helps you against one melee at a time.
    Anyways maybe the problem are not the claws but the missing possibilities for gatherers to get away because I dont think I have a problem with claws in duels or GvG's for example.

  • bLub wrote:

    Ok, just to give you another point of view and to leave my 2 cents. Claws are the most frustrating thing ever as light user atleast in open world pvp. My 2. character currently is a full movement orientated Frost Mage with medium helmet (defensiveless rush), light chest (blink), medium boots (rush), which I wouldnt consider an easy target because of max movement especially when already sitting on a hose. None the less if I happen to see a claw user on my screen who didnt already blew up all his cd's I am most certain dead. It also doesnt matter if its a medium or light chest claw user he can keep up with horses or whatever movement abilitys and as soon as he got you with his channel you are dead for sure. Its even worse if your sitting on a horse because then you cant even hope to lose him by hiding in the short amount of time you might manage to get off screen, which really feels wrong. Things definatly might be different with force field or iceblock but those again are too bad in too many open world scenarios and still woudlnt help if your caught on a horse because your getting thrown off too late or have cd's after demounting. That whole Claw thing really made me think about a medium chest frost mage with invis.

    Dont get me wrong I totaly can see claws being useless in other cases but just because you cant use an ability straight away every time doesnt mean its bad. From the point of view of my frost mage claws totaly needs to be nerfed because your dead on sight and cant do anything about it (unless your willing to bring skills that screw you against everything else in open world pvp). If you dont have a stun that channeling ability really feels too strong. your rooted for ever and on top of that lose like 60-70% of your hp by just one skill.
    cmon blub is this all necessary, u were overweight when i caught u
    -pond

  • Ohh boy, what have I done. If this goes on I will fill the next 5 pages ; (.

    be4 wrote:

    cmon blub is this all necessary, u were overweight when i caught u

    Pond I like you generally but I really hate that comment

    1. I will definatly not complain about a weapon because you kill me a single time and I really dont know why you would assume such a thing. Exactly the same thing happened kinda often now already and it would have been exactly the same thing if i wasnt overweight because I left my horse with 30% hp or so? Maybe lets call it 35% or even 40%, thats still a little much for mainly a single skill while sitting on a horse.
    All I wanted to do is giving people an oposit point of view on claws and pointing out issues with claws for all weapons that do not have an interrupt and dare wearing light or maybe even medium (not sure about that) armor. I can see the mechanics on claws being unpolished but its definatly wrong to say claws are straight bad or something. Like I already mentioned they can be very frustrating to play against.
    Claws are probably too good against anything that lacks disbale (or that is mounted) and wears light (not sure about medium) and too bad against disables. Someone who puts together both views would probably come to the conclusion that they should have lesser disable duration (because thats the frustrating part and their weakness at the same time) but therefore their dash should deal damage and maybe be even a bit longer or have lesser cd. That way they are lesser frustrating to play against, have lesser issues with disables and are still good for chasing and have a reliable way to reach the backline. The dash could deal small amount of damage to everything it touches but deal bonus damage to the last target, that way we would also get some more skill into this game. That way you can either play claws the nuke way with the dash or the gimmicky way with the infiltration. Infiltration would need a buff as well because the channel gets weakened and is no viable option to dash otherwise. A complete rework of the whole weapon or single abilities are ofcourse also an option.

    2. I made it very clear that I am writing this only out of the perspective of my frostmage.(I could also arguement from the perspective of my claymore char and say I dont have a problem with claws at all but well that wouldnt point out the issue light armor without interrupts has with claws in open world pvp).

    The post was edited 5 times, last by bLub ().

  • bLub wrote:

    Ohh boy, what have I done. If this goes on I will fill the next 5 pages ; (.

    be4 wrote:

    cmon blub is this all necessary, u were overweight when i caught u
    Pond I like you generally but I really hate that comment

    1. I will definatly not complain about a weapon because you kill me a single time and I really dont know why you would assume such a thing. Exactly the same thing happened kinda often now already and it would have been exactly the same thing if i wasnt overweight because I left my horse with 30% hp or so? Maybe lets call it 35% or even 40%, thats still a little much for mainly a single skill while sitting on a horse.
    All I wanted to do is giving people an oposit point of view on claws and pointing out issues with claws for all weapons that do not have an interrupt and dare wearing light or maybe even medium (not sure about that) armor. I can see the mechanics on claws being unpolished but its definatly wrong to say claws are straight bad or something. Like I already mentioned they can be very frustrating to play against.
    Claws are probably too good against anything that lacks disbale (or that is mounted) and wears light (not sure about medium) and too bad against disables. Someone who puts together both views would probably come to the conclusion that they should have lesser disable duration (because thats the frustrating part and their weakness at the same time) but therefore their dash should deal damage and maybe be even a bit longer or have lesser cd. That way they are lesser frustrating to play against, have lesser issues with disables and are still good for chasing and have a reliable way to reach the backline. The dash could deal small amount of damage to everything it touches but deal bonus damage to the last target, that way we would also get some more skill into this game. That way you can either play claws the nuke way with the dash or the gimmicky way with the infiltration. Infiltration would need a buff as well because the channel gets weakened and is no viable option to dash otherwise. A complete rework of the whole weapon or single abilities are ofcourse also an option.

    2. I made it very clear that I am writing this only out of the perspective of my frostmage.(I could also arguement from the perspective of my claymore char and say I dont have a problem with claws at all but well that wouldnt point out the issue light armor without interrupts has with claws in open world pvp).
    The problem is mainly having to do with light armor.
    It's a very very very bad armor right now. No matter what your weapon is, you should go heavy chest at the very least in this game right now for pvp. Doesn't matter if you use claws, frost, fire, cursed, daggers, quarterstaff...

    Unless you literally build yourself to be able to catch mounted target, you should go heavy. Medium can somewhat compete because of vanish but heavy is just much better for every situation beside running away.

  • I was happy the day i got to claws.Then i tried them out. Claws are aweful. They are so easily countered. Also if you double click while trying to get the root the second click will cancel your channel. So double whammy for you basically being useless for 30 seconds while you wait on the cooldown. So i personally switched back to pair daggers which i think are far superior to claws in every way. The damage is basically the same and i decide when i want to get full damage from my burst spell basically regardless of what the other person does. They can't really counter my burst unless i make a mistake with timing when to hit my burst.

    As stated by other people light armor is probably your issue. The light has many warnings on it basically that your are going to be weak on defense for using it. That its meant for pure damage. So Sorry if you killed easily in light armor as intended. I really find the best survival armor is meduim over all.

    Please don't ask for a weapon to be nerf simply because of your poor build choice against it.

  • playing as RNGhime(dagger pair) in game.

    changes i hope
    all .0 wpn = pve focus (reason being that u can use it right at start)
    .2 wpn = pvp/pve balance (u start venturing into yellow/red zone)
    .3 wpn = pvp focus (this game is all about old school grp vs grp right?)

    i want to suggest dagger line changes as it is the only tree, that i played alot.

    .0 wpn skills suggested changes

    Q1 - fix dmg skill 4s cd
    Q2 - stackable, but lower dmg than q1 5s cd. stack 1: apply a dot dmg for X sec.
    stack 2: target's cast time increased great.
    stack 3: target's movement speed decrease greatly.

    W1 - instant blink within a radius 10s cd
    W2 - create 1 copy image(around 210hp) that attack target for 100% of auto atk dmg for 10s. 12s cd

    E1 - aoe smoke with radius for X sec, effect all target in smoke do not take any form of range dmg 25s cd
    E2 - 10s cd, base on Q2's stack, 0: fix 5%hp,
    1: fix 11%hp
    2: fix 20%hp
    3: fix 35%hp (too strong on boss?, but u risk alot of mechanic as melee)

    .2 wpn skills suggested changes

    Q1 - fix dmg skill 4s cd + chance 25% chance to stun
    Q2 - as above

    W1 - as above
    W2 - create 2 copy images(around 120hp each) that attack target for 50% of auto atk dmg for 10s. 12s cd

    E1 - avg size aoe, X dmg TRAP that deal less and lesser dmg depends on number of available target
    E2 - as above


    .3 wpn skills suggested changes

    Q1 - fix dmg skill 4s cd + chance 25% chance to stun +15% chance to dismount
    Q2 - as above

    W1 - as above
    W2 - create 3 copy images (around 90hp each) that attack target for 33% of auto atk dmg for 10s. 12s cd

    E1 - dirty fighting buff for 15s, and dmg deal from u or image have a chance to stun enemies for .05s. 25s cd
    E2- as above

    i didnt really think hard about balances, but only want to introduce an assasin feel. hope there will be fun and niche for every class

  • ElricMelnibone wrote:

    Dagger pairs and claws should give you a invis skill of some kind. Being invis should be the requirement of slit throat not 3 stacks at the closest possible melee range. Nice large cooldown and we are set.
    This would be ok with claws since its burst dps is a channel, you would 100% eat the first tick then be able to react, you cant give a weapon an instant 800+ damage though w/o a setup. Daggers would become so incredibly OP its disgusting. There would be no counter play to it, youd simply eat the hit no matter what every time they have invis / slit up, or they could force your cooldowns by faking a slit with invis. Heavy hits all require a long cast or setup in game, think .1x-bow shot, .1 fire staff's bomb, .2 fire staff's meteor, .1 curse staff's bomb, ect and can be countered.

  • Farming wrote:

    ElricMelnibone wrote:

    Dagger pairs and claws should give you a invis skill of some kind. Being invis should be the requirement of slit throat not 3 stacks at the closest possible melee range. Nice large cooldown and we are set.
    This would be ok with claws since its burst dps is a channel, you would 100% eat the first tick then be able to react, you cant give a weapon an instant 800+ damage though w/o a setup. Daggers would become so incredibly OP its disgusting. There would be no counter play to it, youd simply eat the hit no matter what every time they have invis / slit up, or they could force your cooldowns by faking a slit with invis. Heavy hits all require a long cast or setup in game, think .1x-bow shot, .1 fire staff's bomb, .2 fire staff's meteor, .1 curse staff's bomb, ect and can be countered.
    Yeah I feel ya but how many things will take you out of invis and how many people will stand around when they see someone go invis near them? I would add in that you have to be behind the target but I'm not real sure the game can actually judge if you are behind an opponent. Only guy doing 800 damage is a cloth dagger guy and he is dead once he appears lol. And we got beamed curse staves doing 1500 bombs at range and Scythe users hitting many more time for much more damage just standing there in full plate. I don't really feel like it's all that OP.