Thank you for dual swords, RETROMAN

    • how do you make 50 mil when you (and I know its not you directly, you are just pulling data base for Stalker+Slayer) have:

      1) a 41% win rate vs Deathgivers
      2) a 47% win rate vs Great Hammer
      3) a whopping(!) 38% win rate vs Cursed Skull
      4) a 47% win rate vs Shadowcaller
      5) a whopping(!) 37% win rate vs Lifecurse
      6) 48% vs fire and ice (pun intended?) :P

      EDIT: honorable mention goes to Chillhowl, as nothing can really win against it in 1v1... 52% win rate lol

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Captainrussia ().

    • Captainrussia wrote:

      1) a 41% win rate vs Deathgivers
      2) a 47% win rate vs Great Hammer
      3) a whopping(!) 38% win rate vs Cursed Skull
      4) a 47% win rate vs Shadowcaller
      5) a whopping(!) 37% win rate vs Lifecurse
      6) 48% vs fire and ice (pun intended?)
      - DG and GHammer winrates are affected by mists as far as I know
      - Cursed line is pretty good vs melees, in my little experience it's hard to fight curseds with stuff like swords, spears, gloves, etc... the wr could be even lower but crystal skip exists
      - Chillhowl is a good trade vs dual but now it has chance to lose cuz dual now can jump over their E field and stun
      Spear supremacy
    • I am a little worried about dual swords. It is exceptionally easy to play right now with a ton of control, mobility and outs. The new Stalker jacket pairs with it just too well. The stalker electricity+ E stun + splitting slash + the E bonus to attack speed and damage + any boots that aid in damage (cultist is LOL vs cloth with this combo) is near certain death under 1600 IP to cloth if executed correctly. The new splitting slash is amazing for 1vs1 kiters and we haven’t even got to the new W, which will favor more a sword that does not consume/need stacks for an E. It’s the new Battle Bracers.

      It’s E really needs to be a 20 second CD. Not 15 considering it can use its E to catch up to targets without the need of Heroic Charge stacks.

      Honestly the buff to Dual Swords and now the new W is so questionable is makes me wonder if the balance devs are just going about balancing the game arbitrarily with the perspective melees have to be able to take down healers one on one.

      Fabrizziou wrote:

      Captainrussia wrote:

      1) a 41% win rate vs Deathgivers
      2) a 47% win rate vs Great Hammer
      3) a whopping(!) 38% win rate vs Cursed Skull
      4) a 47% win rate vs Shadowcaller
      5) a whopping(!) 37% win rate vs Lifecurse
      6) 48% vs fire and ice (pun intended?)
      - DG and GHammer winrates are affected by mists as far as I know- Cursed line is pretty good vs melees, in my little experience it's hard to fight curseds with stuff like swords, spears, gloves, etc... the wr could be even lower but crystal skip exists
      - Chillhowl is a good trade vs dual but now it has chance to lose cuz dual now can jump over their E field and stun

      Those are exceptionally good numbers considering a) a lot of nubs are currently playing dual swords due to buff and b) everything but deathgivers in that group literally has no mobility to escape or chase. Difference with dual swords is you can hunt pretty much anyone down AND be that effective.
      Why do melees have more mobility in their kits than caster dps? It makes no sense. As a dual swords user I can keep another melee off my back exceptionally easily WHILE dpsing a healer. I can’t do that as any dps caster at the moment…. I just don’t get it.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by BurnsidePDX ().

    • so it's obv dual swords is to strong lets compare to a popular weapon that's almost identical.

      Bear paw: both dual wield, both good atk speeds, both mobile Es.

      Me and a friend compared and the damage on the E is almost identical for landing it. Bear paw then has true damage bleed and dual swords has knock up and 100% atk damage buff.

      Dual Swords 15 seconds cooldown no matter what.

      Bear paw 30 if u miss or use to try and escape and like 40% refunded if you land so 16.

      In both situations bear paw is worse for cooldown. Bearpaw can also be prevented with knockbacks and CC. Dual Swords cant.

      Its kinda obv
    • BurnsidePDX wrote:

      Why do melees have more mobility in their kits than caster dps? It makes no sense.
      Because if melee has less mobility (in 1v1 at least), melee can just donate gear without a fight. I proved it in another thread, try taking a non-ultra mobile melee (I used to be Infernal Scythe main) to CD and you have like 30% winrate as you mostly donate. Everyone and their grandma will kite you and Trinity will just AFK reflect and collect loot.

      BurnsidePDX wrote:

      As a dual swords user I can keep another melee off my back exceptionally easily WHILE dpsing a healer. I can’t do that as any dps caster at the moment…. I just don’t get it.
      I don't get this part. You can only attack in melee range (as Dual Swords), so if you're in melee range attacking a healer (assuming 2v2 or larger fight), the other melee just has to hug their healer and be able to DMG you or "peel" as needed. I get it that the W has a bit of range and E is a leap... but you can't just kill the healer by being able to cast 2 abilities every 15 sec... you have to attack in melee range too.

      iRawn wrote:

      n both situations bear paw is worse for cooldown. Bearpaw can also be prevented with knockbacks and CC. Dual Swords cant.

      Its kinda obv
      Bear Paw CC immunity during E is a long long overdue buff that I (and many others) proposed back in 2019 (2020?) when the weapon first came out. Its was meant for ZvZ but that never came to fruition as the weapon was interruptible and therefore useless... so now its kind of neither herre nor there (and they were forced to buff the cooldown on E with the "on hit CRD reduction" to make it viable in solo and small scale). But all of those artifact weapons had like 40+ sec cooldowns when they first came out - as they were meant for ZvZ engages, not so much for smaller scale and definitely not for 1v1... (not meant for 1v1 and not usable for 1v1 are 2 different things)
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      BurnsidePDX wrote:

      Why do melees have more mobility in their kits than caster dps? It makes no sense.
      Because if melee has less mobility (in 1v1 at least), melee can just donate gear without a fight. I proved it in another thread, try taking a non-ultra mobile melee (I used to be Infernal Scythe main) to CD and you have like 30% winrate as you mostly donate. Everyone and their grandma will kite you and Trinity will just AFK reflect and collect loot.

      BurnsidePDX wrote:

      As a dual swords user I can keep another melee off my back exceptionally easily WHILE dpsing a healer. I can’t do that as any dps caster at the moment…. I just don’t get it.
      I don't get this part. You can only attack in melee range (as Dual Swords), so if you're in melee range attacking a healer (assuming 2v2 or larger fight), the other melee just has to hug their healer and be able to DMG you or "peel" as needed. I get it that the W has a bit of range and E is a leap... but you can't just kill the healer by being able to cast 2 abilities every 15 sec... you have to attack in melee range too.

      iRawn wrote:

      n both situations bear paw is worse for cooldown. Bearpaw can also be prevented with knockbacks and CC. Dual Swords cant.

      Its kinda obv
      Bear Paw CC immunity during E is a long long overdue buff that I (and many others) proposed back in 2019 (2020?) when the weapon first came out. Its was meant for ZvZ but that never came to fruition as the weapon was interruptible and therefore useless... so now its kind of neither herre nor there (and they were forced to buff the cooldown on E with the "on hit CRD reduction" to make it viable in solo and small scale). But all of those artifact weapons had like 40+ sec cooldowns when they first came out - as they were meant for ZvZ engages, not so much for smaller scale and definitely not for 1v1... (not meant for 1v1 and not usable for 1v1 are 2 different things)
      Yes, and that makes logical sense. Realistically, Casters / ranged -should- dominate 1vs1 via a toolset that allows for kiting and skill shots over melees instant casts. Because if they don’t they serve no purpose, as they just become target #1 for a melee train (as they are now) as they are most likely in -cloth- and dps’ing them negates too their dps (usually cast times / skill shots).

      Any other alternative is ‘clothie, you are expected to face tank as melees must be able to get to you 1vs1’… and turns into a massacre / liability for any healer if one team just trains an immobile cloth dps damage sponge for easy win (which they currently do).

      A melee that is to beat a caster dps 1vs1 should need the right gear and abilities all selected to over come.

      This brings me to my second point.

      Dual swords is ALWAYS on target unless he plays dumb and uses a gap closer for dps before his target uses a defensive. E is 15 seconds. W is 15 seconds. He runs at up to 27% faster. Boots can be a fail safe if you DO mess up your counter to a casters defensive as for example, swift cut on assassin boots are a 12 second cd. Yes that means every 6 seconds dual swords has a gap closer (with damage added!) + a run speed boost + a root… insult to injury is splitting slash does an absurd amount of damage for an instant cast aoe root. Any gap opener that caster dps selects currently is effectively a dps LOSS (fire wall, frost nova, desecration and even the arcane enigma blade too if the blink is used)


      In any small group combat, if I use my splitting slash on any melee dps on me while I have assassin boots on and dual swords vs a healer it’s almost comical. Especially if I throw in a stalker jacket. There’s no way to peel me unless they literally have near multiple team mates blowing all their defensive CD’s to help their healer…. And then mine will be up in 6~ seconds average again which in the mean time I can dps any target around me to keep my stacks running.

      Does anyone know of a sword user that actually uses hamstring? Hah!

      The post was edited 3 times, last by BurnsidePDX ().

    • I'm a fire main, as I think is commonly known...

      Duel swords seems balanced to me. For years it was massively under performing, and I always thought it odd given the nature of a duel wielding weapon, it should be a melee beast, and it just wasn't. The refit to swords has been well thought out, now that broadswords mobility has been dealt with, and I find the tree balanced and actively used.

      As a fire user, unless excessive use of reflect is utilized, and this can just be baited out as the CD are long with parry strike and hunterhood, then the fight is fair... if i make a mistake I die, if he makes a mistake, he dies, otherwise it's a fair fight.

      I don't see the issue tbh, gloves are the same, One handed Curse and Bloodletter seem to be the issue to me, but thats another question.
      50%-1sec SLOW to 'BURNING FIELD' on hit.
    • Asheraxia wrote:

      I'm a fire main, as I think is commonly known...

      Duel swords seems balanced to me. For years it was massively under performing, and I always thought it odd given the nature of a duel wielding weapon, it should be a melee beast, and it just wasn't. The refit to swords has been well thought out, now that broadswords mobility has been dealt with, and I find the tree balanced and actively used.

      As a fire user, unless excessive use of reflect is utilized, and this can just be baited out as the CD are long with parry strike and hunterhood, then the fight is fair... if i make a mistake I die, if he makes a mistake, he dies, otherwise it's a fair fight.

      I don't see the issue tbh, gloves are the same, One handed Curse and Bloodletter seem to be the issue to me, but thats another question.
      Saying its balanced is just ignorant. If it was balanced the usage wouldnt look like this.

      murderledger.com/builds/1v1_stalker_7_day

      20,000! usages where the next closest weapon is 3,000.
    • Asheraxia wrote:

      I'm a fire main, as I think is commonly known...

      Duel swords seems balanced to me. For years it was massively under performing, and I always thought it odd given the nature of a duel wielding weapon, it should be a melee beast, and it just wasn't. The refit to swords has been well thought out, now that broadswords mobility has been dealt with, and I find the tree balanced and actively used.

      As a fire user, unless excessive use of reflect is utilized, and this can just be baited out as the CD are long with parry strike and hunterhood, then the fight is fair... if i make a mistake I die, if he makes a mistake, he dies, otherwise it's a fair fight.

      I don't see the issue tbh, gloves are the same, One handed Curse and Bloodletter seem to be the issue to me, but thats another question.
      I run a fully 700/700 fire mage with 700/700 cloth. I MH 1H fire with tome in arenas or facebreaker/musiak/Mist open world. A competent Dual Swords with Stalker vest will absolutely melt me if I don’t have fire wall. If I do have firewall, it’s very, very close.

      He can engage with his assassin boots & activate his jacket, and save the E stun in case I boot and juke his splitting strike. He can keep me at bay with Hunter hood reflect off the bat into a resistance potion (10 seconds) the second he sees aggressive caster proc winding up. This is more than enough time for him to get me to use my chest to mitigate the stalker chest damage.

      If he has cultist sandals and activates them
      In an E in and I don’t have immunity / chest available he can very well melt me in 100-0 in 4 seconds.

      Cultist sandal reduction will effectively increase damage against me by 20%. E in, then immediately splitting slash and auto attack followed up by heroic strikes. It’s nearly a gaurenteed 1900 damage at 1100 IP soft cap. And I haven’t even got to the stalker chest aura yet…

      Dual swords has far better burst on demand using an aoe instant cast stun and then an aoe root has comparable sustained vs cloth targets. Has better mobility on every ability he has and let’s not forget the amazing defenses Stalker vest brings to the table. Look at the dual swords E compared to Pyroblast.

      I know apples to oranges comparison here… however It’s laughably comical how well the dual swords E compliments their kit and then ours effectively just self CC of the fire mage while it serves as reflect bait and has a cast time, with a skill shot of all things to top it off.

      The only hope I’d have is if I ran mage robe to counter his sustain via dispelling the vest and that actually has no impact on his opening salvo as the boots debuff is already on me the second I activate the robe.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by BurnsidePDX ().

    • BurnsidePDX wrote:

      I run a fully 700/700 fire mage with 700/700 cloth. I MH 1H fire with tome in arenas or facebreaker/musiak/Mist open world. A competent Dual Swords with Stalker vest will absolutely melt me if I don’t have fire wall. If I do have firewall, it’s very, very close.
      Firewall is so OP vs melees though :( or at least vs me when I play Axe(s). Its impossible to beat at 10 sec CD (assuming no CDR reductions). My engages are on 20 sec and 30 sec CD (Adrenaline Boost and Plate boots Rejuv sprint, respectively). Even Swift Cut on Assassin shoes can be interrupted (there is no immunity), but I don't run that as that is a death sentence (I tried running it and still got out-kited, only works vs newbs)

      But I understand why mages/clothies need it. So while its super OP (I even tried to carry Giga pot, but that lets me walk thru 1st fire wall, but 2nd one Im pushed away and die), its needed. If Dual Swords have a way to bypass that, Im happy. And sounds like its a close fight anyway, as you mentioned.

      Also... I wonder if the new Feyscale Hat makes all spells (Bear Paws E) uninterruptible... that would be a clever counter item (you'd give up a hat slot for it).
    • Asheraxia wrote:

      I'm a fire main, as I think is commonly known...

      Duel swords seems balanced to me. For years it was massively under performing, and I always thought it odd given the nature of a duel wielding weapon, it should be a melee beast, and it just wasn't. The refit to swords has been well thought out, now that broadswords mobility has been dealt with, and I find the tree balanced and actively used.

      As a fire user, unless excessive use of reflect is utilized, and this can just be baited out as the CD are long with parry strike and hunterhood, then the fight is fair... if i make a mistake I die, if he makes a mistake, he dies, otherwise it's a fair fight.

      I don't see the issue tbh, gloves are the same, One handed Curse and Bloodletter seem to be the issue to me, but thats another question.
      I thought u will be mad at it cuz it's another weapon more that can go trough your fire wall... 8|
      Spear supremacy
    • Captainrussia wrote:

      Also... I wonder if the new Feyscale Hat makes all spells (Bear Paws E) uninterruptible... that would be a clever counter item (you'd give up a hat slot for it).
      the item description is kinda weird... it says that only makes channelings and casts uninterruptible

      it also says that grants immunity to ALL debuffs except DoT's

      so idk if stuns, knockbacks, etc counts as debuff... I think that nope but still need to test
      Spear supremacy
    • A good dual sword that has dodge armed will most likely beat a good fire mage too. It’s a ton of dps sacrifice to get firewall over artillery too. Makes almost more sense to rock fire circle on feyscale robe and add in the artillery dps…..Plus I’m pretty sure the E on dual swords goes through firewall now as long as they don’t land on it.

      Feyscale Hat makes you immune to all debuffs and crowd control effects for 5 seconds. I havent tested literally every CC, but the usual offenders will not interrupt casts. It’s very effective against battle bracers, not so great vs brawler gloves as there is a dispell.
    • my point wasn't to day Bearpaw needs a buff ot to compare artifact vs non.

      Just when u look at those weapons they are similar and currently Dual Swords is better in almost every situation due to better cooldowns and uninteruable e.

      I guess bear paw is better on small clumps but in the end one weapon makes other look bad.
    • BurnsidePDX wrote:

      Asheraxia wrote:

      I'm a fire main, as I think is commonly known...

      Duel swords seems balanced to me. For years it was massively under performing, and I always thought it odd given the nature of a duel wielding weapon, it should be a melee beast, and it just wasn't. The refit to swords has been well thought out, now that broadswords mobility has been dealt with, and I find the tree balanced and actively used.

      As a fire user, unless excessive use of reflect is utilized, and this can just be baited out as the CD are long with parry strike and hunterhood, then the fight is fair... if i make a mistake I die, if he makes a mistake, he dies, otherwise it's a fair fight.

      I don't see the issue tbh, gloves are the same, One handed Curse and Bloodletter seem to be the issue to me, but thats another question.
      I run a fully 700/700 fire mage with 700/700 cloth. I MH 1H fire with tome in arenas or facebreaker/musiak/Mist open world. A competent Dual Swords with Stalker vest will absolutely melt me if I don’t have fire wall. If I do have firewall, it’s very, very close.
      He can engage with his assassin boots & activate his jacket, and save the E stun in case I boot and juke his splitting strike. He can keep me at bay with Hunter hood reflect off the bat into a resistance potion (10 seconds) the second he sees aggressive caster proc winding up. This is more than enough time for him to get me to use my chest to mitigate the stalker chest damage.

      If he has cultist sandals and activates them
      In an E in and I don’t have immunity / chest available he can very well melt me in 100-0 in 4 seconds.

      Cultist sandal reduction will effectively increase damage against me by 20%. E in, then immediately splitting slash and auto attack followed up by heroic strikes. It’s nearly a gaurenteed 1900 damage at 1100 IP soft cap. And I haven’t even got to the stalker chest aura yet…

      Dual swords has far better burst on demand using an aoe instant cast stun and then an aoe root has comparable sustained vs cloth targets. Has better mobility on every ability he has and let’s not forget the amazing defenses Stalker vest brings to the table. Look at the dual swords E compared to Pyroblast.

      I know apples to oranges comparison here… however It’s laughably comical how well the dual swords E compliments their kit and then ours effectively just self CC of the fire mage while it serves as reflect bait and has a cast time, with a skill shot of all things to top it off.

      The only hope I’d have is if I ran mage robe to counter his sustain via dispelling the vest and that actually has no impact on his opening salvo as the boots debuff is already on me the second I activate the robe.
      And here I was thinking firewall and fey scale sandles pretty much rendered them impotent... Oh wait, it does :D

      That said, you are right in many respects, get the fight wrong, even slightly, and you are toast! I don't disagree with that, but both one handed fire and Great fire have excellent counters to Duel swords and if you are running feyscale as well, then fire wall just does the trick!

      I don't know, perhaps its a bit of a bias, I like to see the weapon being used again as its been virtually obsolete for ages... KingMaker too is making a slight comeback, albeit for a short period with the new sword skill looking to eat into it's mandatory heroic strike accumulation... perhaps Kingmaker should get the duel sword treatment and allow it to have an E that is exclusive of heroic strikes.

      I guess the real bug bear here isn't that duel swords are getting a run it's that FIRE doesn't have any mobility in it's kit. A Blazing speed buff attached to the first W spell for instance might give us an alternative to fire-walling everything to create distance for our self CC E's. but Retroman doesn't seem to understand the issue with fire... something a Blazing speed buff to the first W, or replace the 4th W with a Blazing Speed mechanic like Adrenalin Boost does for axes, and a slow to Burning Field would rectify in quick order.
      50%-1sec SLOW to 'BURNING FIELD' on hit.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Asheraxia ().