Combat balance changes suggestions

    • Combat balance changes suggestions

      Hello,

      I wanna suggest some of the combat balance changes & fixes that in my pov are most urgent right now.
      I'm a small scale player, either playing solo or usually in a party between 2-6 people in mists/roads/open world.

      1. Swords + claymore

      Currently claymore ability (charge) is poorly designed. For example: if person casts charge and the enemy uses invis (assassin jacket for example) it still does damage & stuns. How is it possible?
      Another thing is charge, because it's uninterruptable, can hit people who during the cast time are very far from range of ability just because they were in range at the beginning (only iframes & hard blocks work).
      I think this ability needs some kind of rework, hopefully it will come with whole melee rework, because dual swords after numerous tries still feel clunky & bad to play.

      Another thing about swords, currently iron will cannot be purged, offers a free q stack & move speed bonus (and defensive buff). I don't mind having an ability that grants protection from purges but a move speed bonus with q stack on top of that is too much imo.
      • Iron Will (swords)
        • removed 20% bonus (giving q stack stays)
      2. Maces

      This is interesting one. 1h mace got nerfed after buffing (q) sacred ground. It looks like history likes to repeat itself - new q gets introduced/buffed but is OP. Instead of fixing the problem everything else around it is getting nerfed to match new ability (looking at deadly swipe on daggers that forced dash changes & e nerfs on some daggers, too much mobility on gloves q which forces upcoming triple kick & bracers e nerfs, but I will come back to that).

      Sacred ground is OP. It is a 7s cooldown ability that lasts for 6s. With caerleon cape you have 2 of these. It also for some reason has a slow too.
      Considering it's low cd, it's extremely hard to counter it during longer fights even with cleanses.
      I honestly wish this ability was never in game as it reduces the counterplay against melee comps who simply full dive backline and get rewarded for no effort. Promotes simple & fast claps instead of trading damage & outplaying opponent.
      On top of that, cleanse on nature staff got nerfed heavily which was one of the way to deal with it on relatively low cd.
      The duration of the aoe on the ground is too long imo (to compare, heavy mace ability silences for 3.55s with 20s cd on ability) and should be nerfed.
      • Sacred Ground (maces)
        • duration of aoe 6s -> 3.5s
        • no longer slows down by 20% within the circle (optional)


      Imo this change will promote more interesting combat & will require more skill than simply cc-ing enemies to death.


      3. War gloves & Daggers

      Back to changing things that aren't going to fix the issue. Currently we have only 2 weapon lines that have damage & q mobility: daggers & gloves (quarterstaff is off-tank as it has very little damage).
      As of now in upcoming patch notes we have nerf to triple kick cd (15s->18s) & range on battle bracers (15m ->13m). I found a nerf to daggers dash which has cooldown scale with ip & range at 8m.

      None of those changes would be necessary if q abilities were balanced. A short cooldown mobility spells promotes ratty playstyle and allow to infinitely reset the fight.
      There is one more mobility spell that is well balanced: rending rage. it has an option to leap for mobility and cc opponent, but for a trade of stand time.
      As of now both daggers & gloves have too much mobility on q. I'd like to see it increased on w's and not nerf it on battle bracers e. Instead, if you wanna keep mobility on q's, make them conditional (hitting a player, make it a 2-way combo with increased cd after 2nd, increase stand time, there is already a lot of similar things implemented in the game). Mana costs doesn't cut it, most players are able to go through half of open world zone to exit and still have mana for more.
      As of now majority of war gloves users are on dragon leap as it's far better than any other q. Same goes for daggers, most of players are using deadly swipe except some of gankers that pre-stack on assassin spirit. Daggers q forced nerfs in the past, gloves q is forcing nerfs in the present. Stop making same mistakes over and over.

      About bloodletter, there were threads about incoming change about this weapon, nobody so far thought it's gonna fix the ratting problem, so after all the feedback best solution imo would be:
      • Lunging Stabs (Bloodletter)
        • damage depends on stacks (current damage above 40% hp = 3 assassin spirit/sunder armor stacks, 0.8 current dmg with 2 stacks, 0.6 current dmg with 1 and 0.4 current dmg with 0 stacks)
        • bonus damage against enemies below 40% + cooldown reduction on all abilities for short duration after hitting at least one person below 40% (unchanged)
      Damage example may not be accurate, I think that requires testing by someone more experienced, but general idea stays as it is.


      4. Bows

      This is a weapon line that creates a lot of talk in the forums, from frost shot nerf & buff to ray of light, through speed shot being useless ability, to e's that some need rework (reggy bow, mistpiercer perhaps as longbow is cheaper and better & wailing bow which I honestly didn't know it exists in the game lol).
      I won't mention all of this, because it's already gonna be a long post and I really hope for a full rework just like you did with mage line.

      In the current meta warbow has been overshadowed by bow of badon in solo gameplay. Partially, because some builds are very well thought to keep players inside the Raging Storm (skinner cap ftw). On the other hand, I think ability as of now is too strong, allowing to deal a huge damage without even keeping enemy inside the ability. Since it's aoe, I do not think it should interrupt enemy & deal damage after leaving the area.
      • Raging Storm (Bow of Badon)
        • lightning ability no longer deals damage and interrupts enemy after leaving the area
      This change will make badon bow less viable in solo gameplay without cc, but will still be very good in groups.


      5. Nature staffs

      This weapon line received reworks & buffs/nerfs with ItF update. That being said, some of it feels like got nerfed too heavily.

      Cleanse heal received huge double nerf, first cooldown & healing output, then another healing output. Besides their use for cleansing cc, ability heals for nothing feels like.
      PoN got nerfed too which was mistake imo as holy is easier to play, but nature used to be more rewarding for highly skilled players. Right now those 2 abilities don't feel good enough.
      Also I admit I was wrong about great nature healing on DoTs, getting rid of that killed this weapon.
      Some changes were made, because of Crystal League, but feels like nobody paid attention how it's gonna affect small scale roads & open world pvp.

      • Cleanse Heal (Nature Staffs)
        • cooldown 20s -> 18s
        • 0 stack heal 55 -> 70
        • 1 stack heal 70 -> 85
        • 2 stack heal 90 -> 105
        • 3 stack heal 120 -> 135
      It's a revert of cooldown and increased slightly healing (not to what it used to be, but it's a good beginning).

      • Protection of Nature (Nature Staffs)
        • keep the duration for 6s
        • doesn't give direct healing anymore
        • healing increased 35% -> 45%
      Direct heal on PoN makes it harder for PvE (Holy will always be superior in that content, but PoN allowed to boost resistances without pulling aggro by nature healer). It's a slight boost to healing increased to what it used to be before nerf, lower duration stays the same & no longer heals directly.

      Great nature staff should heal on dots but at the same time to not make it overly broken, during that 4s duration, number of times that you can be healed should be limited (something like bloodlust on mercenary jacket). I'm not sure about number of ticks and how much each of them should heal, but I think starting with 5-7 of them is some beginning. This needs further testing, but at the current state, it's gonna be PvE weapon only as it no longer provides enough value in outnumbered fights, which was main usage before nerf.
      • Living armor (Great Nature Staff)
        • ability heals whenever the target receives damages, up to 5-7 times per cast for x amount of health
      This change will make weapon valuable, but shouldn't make it too OP, it still has a lot of counterplay.


      6. Cleric robe

      This hasn't been mentioned before, but I think it's time for a cleric robe to be put in line with other robes. It is the most common one in the game as it grants invulnerablity for 3s.
      However, just as mage robe got nerfed to no longer work on DoTs and reflect, I think the same should happen for cleric robe.
      Being able to completely ignore a reflect just by pressing one button without any control from the opponent makes it simply too easy to play with, same goes with DoTs, where a passive DoT on weapon can proc it easily.
      Also I'm not sure about bonus damage, I'd rather see it as a defensive skill only, because robes by default offer the highest damage bonuses.
      • Everlasting Spirit (Cleric Robe)
        • ability procs only on direct damage only (DoTs & reflect doesn't work anymore)
      This nerf should be made at the same time as mage robe imo and they are going to be more balanced now.


      7. Mage cowl

      The most used head piece by solo & small scale players right now probably. People argue providing damage comparisions between Poison & Cowl of Purity and all that stuff.
      The problem isn't in damage itself, the problem is scaling with ip which is ridiculous right now and more importantly, cooldown and time to apply is the biggest issue plus how easy it is.
      Therefore:
      • Poison (Mage Cowl)
        • time to apply 15s -> 10s
        • cooldown 30s -> 40s OR cooldown remains unchanged, but ability goes on cooldown after 10s (time to apply) or after applied Poison buff on enemy
        • scaling with ip fix (requires testing as I don't know numbers)


      That's all my head can handle after hours of trying to figure out how to balance things. I'm gonna put another feedback after changes/nda patch notes.
      I understand not everyone is going to agree with me, it's a personal feedback from a solo/small scale player that wants to have better experience during PvP.
      There is a lot more that needs to be worked on, I really hope for full melee, bows & xbows rework next year after the mess with mists & roads update will be fixed.

      Cheers everyone
    • i respect your opinions on your weapons
      but from your responses it seems you were mostly on the receiving side of the abuse and not on the playing side as much
      sure i know it feels bad to be on the side where the skills seem super strong and enough to one shot you
      but looking at both sides before over commit on nerfs you cant take back which can destroy a weapon
      Look at great nature rise and fall

      1)
      got to agree claymore has too much in its skill
      and iron will needs to cut its move speed but it needs to be buffed to compensate

      2)
      mace Q3 is impossible to land without assistance from snare charge W or some other cc due to cast time
      to keep the target there for the silence to take effect long enough
      targets just walk out of the zone most of the time when there is no additional assistance of other cc

      it also serves as a zone control skill for maces in exchange of the other utility it has Q1 armor

      top tier players have learn to use multiple ways to avoid the 15 second snare charge into mace Q3 to avoid being blown up
      along side the new mercenary shoes with the ability break free, royal shoes and dodge roll found in every shoes
      this skill combo is not a problem for most well geared players with good defensives

      so i disagree with your choice to nerf it heavily
      at most i would reduce the silence pool duration to 5 second from 6
      slowly nerf it like hammer Q3 to a good spot

      3)
      got to agree with some stand time for hyper mobile skills

      about blood letter its a whole different story i feel the problem is not in bloodletter E at all
      its a core identity of bloodletter. sure bloodletter has high damage when target is below 40% but outside of it bloodletter sucks on E
      any other weapon can use E or full QWE combo to kill a target below 40%
      yet why is bloodletter so strong even with out using E skill for the half the fight?

      the answer is Health stacking and offhand choices
      bloodletter has health on the weapon and a offhand. this has made it way more tankier then it should have been.
      so tanky in fact that they can auto someone to 40% and use E and still have leeway to loot and be tanky enough to survive other rats

      so my proposal is to keep the current skills of bloodletter but remove all the health stacking and offhand

      4) bows and crossbow

      overtime has lost their identity and are sort of in limbo after mage rework

      they are making a come back but only the type of bow that players hate the most are making a come back
      it has to do with their kit and content they are in which allows them to take full advantage of it similar to how swords and prestacking work

      So while i agree to mobility nerf, other options of bows and crossbows kit needs to be buffed up to be on par with mobility
      you are sacrificing mobility for a damage/ utility skill it should be worth it

      as for badon. ONLY doing damage in the storm? that is abit much due to how small the radius of the storm is
      as without any CC to keep them there badon E does pitiful damage compared to something like gloves or bearpaws E

      so while i would agree with your opinion on change it need a larger AoE to compensate

      5) nature staff
      nature staff has a super high skill floor and even higher skill ceiling
      so while nerfs to it for the average player seems unfair but for the highest of high players
      nature staff is strong due to the amount of healing , resistance, utility and mobility it has compared to holy

      As a nature player you heals feel less impactful then holy all the time but this cannot be helped because you cannot control how other players play
      in pro play players know when to back off and when to enage to best make use of the insane HOT you have

      Cleanse Heal
      this skill has a super strong cleanse that holy can never match
      in the hands of an average player you might some one in CC or give a big heal to 1 target after 3 stack someone

      but in the hands of a pro player its a different story
      it cleanses all negative effects such as anti heal, pierce, evensong and even realmbreaker
      it can be used while CC and silence
      and lastly it consumes a rejuvenation stack allowing you to add one more stack and refresh the 3 stack heal instead of consuming all stacks and healing from 0 stacks again

      under such effects Holy struggle to heal through but cleanse heal does it all so Heal values were decreased over time to match its pre rework state because it was given too much power

      Protection of nature
      The issue with this skill is in the ability when combo with other healing ability
      they reduced the heal increase and add a base heal to decrease its power in some combo choices
      grave guard helm, druidic and iron root is one of the prime offenders which allow nature healers to 0 to 100 heal someone
      and this is ontop of its chunky resistance to both armor and magic

      Great nature.
      this is what happens when people panic nerf a weapon to the ground
      Hope a lesson was learnt and not to suggest insane buffs or nerfs that change a weapon so drasticaly
      that drastic changes were taken that in the end killed the weapon

      6) cleric robe
      Agree

      7) mage cowl
      nothing to say here
      The Tank Who Bonks
    • STACKS IN AO

      I expect SBI to finally make a decent stacking system you should not be able to stack in PVE and use it in PVP, you should not be able to have 3 stacks almost 24/7 and open a fight with 1k+ dmg

      blue & yellow stacks

      Blue stacks - Stacks from PVE that don't work in PVP
      Yellow stacks - Stacks from PVP that work in PVP&PVE

      and should be applied to every stack weapon i.e. spears,daggers,sword.

      BOWS


      remove cast time from frost shots reduce distance by 30% and reduce CD make it a tool for proactive, more dynamic gameplay, use it more often with i-frame.

      add a new spell called Swamp Trap, which creates an area under the player that slows enemy player down by 65% for 8 seconds, and after 2 seconds inside the trap is a 25% chance that an opponent inside can be rooted for 2 seconds.
      bow doesn't have to be a weapon that has to rely on making distance.... just give the bow some CC to play against melle, it will also open up so many possible armor slots....

      In general, I would like to see more trap spells for the HUNTER tree.


      NATURE

      gnature is overnerfed literally killed by panic NERF....

      The core of the problem was in revitalize after they fixed revitalize it costs hella tons of mana but the shield is now useless against dots, you have auto lose, you have no sustain, you have no mobility you have to run to the nearest exit to get away from dot players....
      gnature shield E should function like divine staff E, cap the HP you can get from E equalivent of divine staff E i.e. 3k this will fix a problem vs groups without purge and change nothing in 1v1.

      GLOVES & DAGGERS

      remove Q2 from the game, the game is based on cooldowns as who have a better micro&macro should win, there is no point in keeping a spell that allows you to literally grind attemps, losing 20 trades but it doesn't matter because of Q2 spam you are breaking the rules of the game i.e proper rotating cooldowns to the point that eventually after X attempts you can hit a winning one.


      This is how I see it, the biggest problems and recent changes in the NDA which are sad.
    • Thanks for the full breakdown @The_Support_God

      The_Support_God wrote:

      but from your responses it seems you were mostly on the receiving side of the abuse and not on the playing side as much
      sure i know it feels bad to be on the side where the skills seem super strong and enough to one shot you
      I'm not gonna lie, some of these might be too much & yes part of these changes I mentioned because of being on the receiving end, but I think they are mostly reasonable and not irrational. Trying to stay unbiased as much as I can.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      and iron will needs to cut its move speed but it needs to be buffed to compensate
      Does it really need a compensation? It's free q stack, purge immunity, defensive buff. I think that's more than enough utility iron will provides even with nerf I mentioned.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      mace Q3 is impossible to land without assistance from snare charge W or some other cc due to cast time
      to keep the target there for the silence to take effect long enough
      (...)
      slowly nerf it like hammer Q3 to a good spot
      It requires cc to keep it in the pool yes, but snare charge is only 15s cooldown, no cleanse/blink/roll has such a low cd (closest I think are royal shoes with 18s). Plus tanks aren't the only ones that has cc, you don't require hard cc to keep someone in it, so basically it comes down to that 6s duration every 7s. Plus I wouldn't mind reducing cast time to 0.5 so it's more reliable but not as strong. I do agree it might be too much and I'd much rather see a smaller changes just like you mentioned with hammer, so starting with reducing it to 4.5-5s would be something.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      its a core identity of bloodletter. sure bloodletter has high damage when target is below 40% but outside of it bloodletter sucks on E
      I agree, but I don't really want it to be turned into another brawly weapon. We already have that with demonfang & bridled fury (ZvZ). I want it to have it's own indentity, I'm just unsure what could fix the problem with ratting. Thought stacks would at least improve the situation, but I'm more than willing to hear more different ideas. Also maybe with side nerf of mage cowl & thetford cape the meta with it will change naturally. There is a lot to bloodletter than weapon itself as u mentioned with off hands and such.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      So while i agree to mobility nerf, other options of bows and crossbows kit needs to be buffed up to be on par with mobility
      you are sacrificing mobility for a damage/ utility skill it should be worth it
      I agree with this take 100%, but currently xbows with caltrops receive a buff to mobility/counter mobility, while also keeping their very high damage so it might be too much.
      We will see though.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      as for badon. ONLY doing damage in the storm? that is abit much due to how small the radius of the storm is
      as without any CC to keep them there badon E does pitiful damage compared to something like gloves or bearpaws E
      Well it would require some cc yes, but there are plenty of things which are able to keep opponents inside as solo (i.e. RoL buff, frost shot slow), so I don't think it would be much of a problem. With group you have a tank to keep enemies in place so still viable in group content too. And it's not purely solo bow by design imo.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      it can be used while CC and silence
      That's my problem, cleanse mostly got turned into utility rather than healing & utility. We have arcane cleanse to do that. I think the nerf was just a lil bit too much, but I also don't play crystals so I might be biased on this. I think there is more of a problem with DR in this game & that's why it's difficult for me to accept healing nerfs.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      they reduced the heal increase and add a base heal to decrease its power in some combo choices
      I compared it with holy blessing, I guess it's fine as it is right now, as they are pretty balanced.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foxyy_ ().

    • I agree on every point, except 3 (mace) because I don't play maces enough to argue, and 6 (cleric robe) because I think it should still proc on DOTs. Dots mechanics feels inconsistent in the game, it is one of the reason why Great nature is now useless, and I don't want cleric to be nerfed that much. On the other hand, I agree with cleric shouldn't proc on reflected damage.

      Also, with the incoming mobility nerf, you might add double bladed to the todo list.
      Right now, it's really hard to catch a double bladed. After the patch, nothing will be able to compete with it.
      The damage is quite low on double bladed so right now not a lot of people complain about it. But in the next patch, with all others mobility weapons nerfed, it will be the meta in the mist, solo roam in bz, gathering and core ratting. That's just a prediction

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Laem ().

    • Good to see some more ideas, was hoping for that

      Quagga wrote:

      I expect SBI to finally make a decent stacking system you should not be able to stack in PVE and use it in PVP, you should not be able to have 3 stacks almost 24/7 and open a fight with 1k+ dmg
      I think the problem isn't with stacking itself, it's environment that you are allowing to prestack in. Corrupteds should work like hellgates imo, mobs disappear after invasion. I don't really play corrupteds, but hellgates system is in my pov far far better. In open world environment I think it's okay to prestack, because it's not the only thing you are allowed to do (i.e. enemy goes invis to counter merc jacket -> you heal on mobs, same for hellion, gnature, reggy bow stacks etc.). I think that's fair as it is right now, plus it would be really hard to implement the idea.

      Quagga wrote:

      In general, I would like to see more trap spells for the HUNTER tree.
      Honestly right now with RoL buff it's some sort of cc that works like trap, it's just frost shot was the most used w by everyone.
      I think speed shot would require a change/revert? I'm unsure how ability used to work, but right now it's completely useless. Increase move speed + a long, but minor slow would be something worth considering. 8s 65% is too much lmao, i'm sorry.
      One more thing, capes need to be adressed. heretic cape trap could be very helpful with kiting players, but ability is on such a long cooldown, it's far better to just run thetford cape for damage or undead for survivability.

      Quagga wrote:

      cap the HP you can get from E equalivent of divine staff E i.e. 3k this will fix a problem
      I love this idea, either that or number of stacks you can heal for. Basically would work similar.




      Laem wrote:

      I think it should still proc on DOTs. Dots mechanics feels inconsistent in the game, it is one of the reason why Great nature is now useless, and I don't want cleric to be nerfed that much.
      I was unsure about DoTs too. But if you are axe/curse/fire player, where ur main damage comes from dots, you aren't able to control them to not proc cleric robe. Mage robe works exactly the same right now and it's still a good robe in various of content.
      Nature staff is different story imo, I see where your worries coming from, but this nerf wouldn't make cleric robe useless, just less guaranteed. Bet it would still be the most common robe for the utility it provides.

      About double bladed, yes it would be most likely the most mobile weapon to escape etc., but a whole quarterstaff tree needs some love with reworks. I've never played it so the only thing ik is that double bladed is good for escape, grailseeker is strong with 1h dagger one-shot meta, and some qs are common in ZvZ as off-tanks. Can't help much with it.

      Cheers

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foxyy_ ().

    • Foxyy_ wrote:

      I think the problem isn't with stacking itself, it's environment that you are allowing to prestack in. Corrupteds should work like hellgates imo, mobs disappear after invasion. I don't really play corrupteds, but hellgates system is in my pov far far better. In open world environment I think it's okay to prestack, because it's not the only thing you are allowed to do (i.e. enemy goes invis to counter merc jacket -> you heal on mobs, same for hellion, gnature, reggy bow stacks etc.). I think that's fair as it is right now, plus it would be really hard to implement the idea.
      CD is a different story, but in mist we have the same thing, invis does not work like counter play because of the mobs that are practically everywhere, such a claymore runs all the time with 3 stacks, the same with spear or daggers, the whole system of stacks is one big cheese, just as well sbi could remove them and cut 50% of dmg and there will be no difference fighting will be more balanced.... even if you chase such a prestacker he runs away and stacks all the time so you can expect big dmg in a few seconds... the only thing left vs sword is 1 shot....

      Purge doesn't work because iron will.... to that merc jacket also on mobs but utility is not as toxic and invasive as opening fights with 2k dmg... it is like you always fight with -1 item or no res pots and sword is always able to escape by stacking.
      the current meta in the mist is claymore + merc jacket and running around camps with perma 3 stacks and 1shot everything under 8.3 no one and nothing can kill a claymore who has unlimited access to 3 stacks and healing

      if swords/spear had to stack on players and not on everything around him then gameplay would look quite different.... HEALTHY..

      rumor has it that SBI has a ready plan for prestacking and stacks we will see how much truth in it because prestacking and hit&run E gameplay must be fixed.

      edit. Such an open world that again I have to make a build under prestackers because otherwise I will always be dead when I meet a sword... this is just retarded combat balance.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Quagga ().

    • I get you, I play a lot of 1h spear so I know how annoying swords can be after change on iron will, but I'm biased because cripple used to counter them well.
      I also don't think prestacking on mobs is nearly as obnoxious on spears compared to swords.
      To be fair, we need rework on a lot of weapons just like mage line, but not a quick ones like dual swords, that didn't work at all.
      Hope sbi will introduce some new mechanics and more interesting gameplay & not what we have right now. That will take a lot of time & testing though.