Generous Heal "Buff" Feedback - Holy Weapon

    • Combat Balance
    • Generous Heal "Buff" Feedback - Holy Weapon

      As a Holy Main PVP Healer, I wanted to provide some feedback about this "buff" that is being given to our Generous Heal Q1 spell:

      "Holy Staffs
      Generous Heal was outshone by Holy Flash in most PvP situations. To make it a more competitive option, its cast time has been reduced and it is now more energy efficient."
      • Generous Heal (all Holy Staffs):
        • Cast Time: 0.7s → 0.6s
        • Energy Cost: 7 → 6.2


          Okay so if you guys really want people to choose Generous Heal over Holy Flash in any form of Competitive PVP then you'll need to make some other or different changes than this. Even after these changes are made, there is absolutely no reason I would ever choose to pick Generous Heal over Holy Flash because it doesn't really change anything that would actually make it better.

          Even with a Cast Time of 0.6s, Holy Flash still remains the Faster Cast Time, if you want to bring Generous Heal more in-line with it then you need give it a Cast Time = to Holy Flash or still close the gap more, 0.1s isn't going to make the difference and I would still rather use Holy Flash if I was ever worried about Cast Time to begin with, although Cast Time is really not what needs to be buffed to make it better anyways.

          Similarly, Energy Cost is not a problem that needs attention to make people choose Generous Heal over Holy Flash.. any Holy Healer should be running other items to help manage their energy already anyways and will be, so changing the amount of energy consumed by Generous Heal (slightly) isn't going to actually affect anything or make any differences in the long run. Both of these above changes will realistically have absolutely 0 effect on people choosing Generous Heal more than Holy Flash for any reason.

          If you TRULY want to make Generous Heal a viable option to use instead of Holy Flash in some situations, then you would need to make more dynamic changes, for example:

          - Increasing Healing Output of Generous Heal (since it is Single Target healing)
          - Increasing Healing RANGE by an additional 1m (for a longer ranged healing option than Holy Flash)
          - Lowering the Cooldown of Generous Heal (for an even larger gap between Holy Flash)

          Maybe it doesn't need ALL of these buffs, but ANY of them would actually make me at least possibly consider playing Generous Heal again.. as of right now I have not touched Generous Heal even once since the changes to Holy Flash, and the "buffs" suggested in the patch notes are not going to do anything to change my mind about that. Holy Flash will remain better in every single way especially with all the AOE damage in the game right now. I don't mind this, I personally really enjoy playing Holy Flash and don't want to have to swap to Generous Heal so this is fine with me, but I am making this post just to help out because it seems like YOU guys WANT people to consider using Generous Heal again and I'm afraid that the way you are going about it is not going to accomplish this.

          Thanks for reading.. hope this helps! Cheers, GLHF ^^








      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---
    • So yeah, I tested the new "Generous Heal" just out of curiousity.

      It is still 100% useless lol

      I appreciate the attempt, but I really do not understand the point of these Feedback sections on the Forums if there is NEVER any Dev responses and 100% of our suggestions actually just get completely ignored. Oh well, can't say I didn't try at least..
      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---
      • Added a new Q-slot ability: Holy Flash
        • Heals 40 to 5 allies in a 4m radius. The healing gets stronger the more allies are healed. Each additional ally increases the healing by 10%
        • Cast Time: 0.8s
        • Cooldown: 0s

      The first version of holy flash was the best, it required positioning.

      imo holy flsah should heal >2 = 3 and <4 relative to single target.





      Healheart wrote:

      I appreciate the attempt, but I really do not understand the point of these Feedback sections on the Forums if there is NEVER any Dev responses and 100% of our suggestions actually just get completely ignored. Oh well, can't say I didn't try at least..
      the only feedback that comes through is the one from on reddit, all you had to do was make one post about morning star and you had 100 downvotes in one day and you were off the board, such is the feedback on reddit, it is sad that the forum is irrelevant.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Quagga ().

    • Guirssane wrote:

      Idk I still prefer Generous heal for crystal arena with random. As people can't stop moving around its sometimes impossible to heal them. With generous heal spell being single target and W and E being aoe, it's not a problem at all to hold teamfights.
      I face the top ranked teams consistently in crystal arenas and I can assure you that Generous Heal cannot compete with Holy Flash whatsoever.

      I actually remain to have around a 98% win rate out of all of my hundreds of matches in the new Season, using Holy Flash.

      My win rate drops down to about 30% or so if I try testing Generous Heal because I was curious if it would be viable at all.

      It is Not.

      But I would like for it to be, except SBI doesn't buff the spell correctly and therefore it remains useless.
      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---
    • Healheart wrote:

      - Increasing Healing Output of Generous Heal (since it is Single Target healing)

      - Increasing Healing RANGE by an additional 1m (for a longer ranged healing option than Holy Flash)
      - Lowering the Cooldown of Generous Heal (for an even larger gap between Holy Flash)
      Hell no. Holy Flash for healing groups, Generous Heal for 1-2-3 men content.

      It's already nigh impossible to kill 2-4 group having holy if you don't have one with the current Generous Heal.


      Healheart wrote:

      Okay so if you guys really want people to choose Generous Heal over Holy Flash in any form of Competitive PVP then you'll need to make some other or different changes than this.
      They don't have to "want" any people to use Generous Heal. It's already being used. Not everyone run zerg content, 20v20, Crystals, . . . Generous Heal out-heal flash when there's only 2-3 target to heal.

      It's the same for other weapon too. E.g: swords also have a Heroic Strike and a Heroic Cleave, and people don't bring Heroic Strike into group fights.
      Solo/duo player. Potions & food crafter. Transporters.
    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      Healheart wrote:

      - Increasing Healing Output of Generous Heal (since it is Single Target healing)

      - Increasing Healing RANGE by an additional 1m (for a longer ranged healing option than Holy Flash)
      - Lowering the Cooldown of Generous Heal (for an even larger gap between Holy Flash)
      Hell no. Holy Flash for healing groups, Generous Heal for 1-2-3 men content.
      It's already nigh impossible to kill 2-4 group having holy if you don't have one with the current Generous Heal.


      Healheart wrote:

      Okay so if you guys really want people to choose Generous Heal over Holy Flash in any form of Competitive PVP then you'll need to make some other or different changes than this.
      They don't have to "want" any people to use Generous Heal. It's already being used. Not everyone run zerg content, 20v20, Crystals, . . . Generous Heal out-heal flash when there's only 2-3 target to heal.
      It's the same for other weapon too. E.g: swords also have a Heroic Strike and a Heroic Cleave, and people don't bring Heroic Strike into group fights.
      He is talking about crystal arena, which is right when he says holy flash is better for 5v5 content tbh even if generous heal isnt terrible atm
    • Guirssane wrote:

      He is talking about crystal arena, which is right when he says holy flash is better for 5v5 content tbh even if generous heal isnt terrible atm
      I know what's he's talking about. It's his suggestion that's i'm against. It falls into the same track like what happened with Corrupted Dungeons where they tried to balance stuffs around just that content and ruined things else where.
      Solo/duo player. Potions & food crafter. Transporters.
    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      Healheart wrote:

      - Increasing Healing Output of Generous Heal (since it is Single Target healing)

      - Increasing Healing RANGE by an additional 1m (for a longer ranged healing option than Holy Flash)
      - Lowering the Cooldown of Generous Heal (for an even larger gap between Holy Flash)
      Hell no. Holy Flash for healing groups, Generous Heal for 1-2-3 men content.
      It's already nigh impossible to kill 2-4 group having holy if you don't have one with the current Generous Heal.


      Healheart wrote:

      Okay so if you guys really want people to choose Generous Heal over Holy Flash in any form of Competitive PVP then you'll need to make some other or different changes than this.
      They don't have to "want" any people to use Generous Heal. It's already being used. Not everyone run zerg content, 20v20, Crystals, . . . Generous Heal out-heal flash when there's only 2-3 target to heal.
      It's the same for other weapon too. E.g: swords also have a Heroic Strike and a Heroic Cleave, and people don't bring Heroic Strike into group fights.
      If you actually believe that "Generous Heal" can outheal Holy Flash in matches with only 3 targets to heal, you are still wrong.

      The ONLY situation where Generous Heal is truly better than Holy Flash in any regard at the moment is when you CANNOT get at least 2 people to recieve the heal from Holy Flash per every single Q that you throw.

      Under ANY circumstance where 2 people recieve the heal, it has already provided more value and healing over time based on cooldown than Generous Heal can provide. That's the issue.

      Arguably, EVEN when healing ONLY 2 Targets, as long as both targets remain stacked close enough to each other to recieve the heal, Holy Flash is STILL better than Generous Heal could be lol. That's the problem I have with how weak Generous Heal is in its current state.

      And I would like to add, that if you know how to play together with your teammates to abuse the power of Holy Flash, it is not that difficult to make sure that at the minimum 2 players always recieve the heal.
      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---
    • SpicyPepper wrote:

      I know what's he's talking about. It's his suggestion that's i'm against. It falls into the same track like what happened with Corrupted Dungeons where they tried to balance stuffs around just that content and ruined things else where.

      Hattenhair wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      In most situations, holy flash is still better because as long as you can guarantee at least two people are being healed, it always heals for more
      (...)
      What they should really pay attention to are the trash tier Q heal spells for nature staffs.
      There, you said it.Nature's strength is split HoT's and healing alot of targets at once, but why bother learning a high skill floor technique when Holy flash does the same thing, faster, in a burst manner and is just about as uninterruptible (excluding accidents) as nature Q variants.

      Using a 1504 IP GH staff paired with a 60% healing bonus set (cleric + agressive passives) and a regular t7 omelette, we get:
      Generous heal:
      • 573 Health healed
      • 0.61s cast time, 1.73s cooldown, 2.34s total.
      • 31 energy cost, 794 EPM (energy per minute)
      • 14692 HPM (health per minute), 18.5 EE (energy efficiency, healing per point of energy)
      Holy Flash:
      • 564 Health healed
      • 0.35s cast time (+0.35 hitdelay), 3.03s cooldown, 3.38s total.
      • 36 energy cost, 639 EPM.
      TargetsHPMEE
      11001215.7
      22002431.3
      33003647
      44004862.7
      55006078.3

      As a short conclusion, my gripes with holy flash are:
      1. You just can't fucking interrupt it with intent. 0.35s - "green" ping is on the edge of average reaction time, and that's not considering the usually hectic battlefield and hitdelays on interrupt spells.
        Getting interrupted by enemies completely by accident kills your HPM, and is generally frustrating that chance determines your success.
      2. It becomes stupidly energy efficient at 2+ targets. The druid which has less healing output but better energy management becomes less viable as the latter becomes a non-issue for holy.
      3. With hypermobility, dashes and such all around, it's quite easy to miss it.
      4. Can't cast-cancel the spell even with minor ping because of the 60% limiter and the short cast-time.
      The suggestions:
      1. Move the hitdelay into cast-time to fix issues (1) and (3), with the latter fixing issue (4) in a cascade.
      2. Reduce the power level of the spell (less healing per cast), and make it more spammable (less cooldown), to counteract the spell being interruptible by enemies.
      3. Reduce the received healing amount slightly, the more targets you heal at once (~5%, or less), contributing to fixing issue (2).
      P.S:
      It's fucking bullshit, I am tired of faceslapping my keyboard with holy flash, while generous heal is hardly able to compete while also requiring more skill to use.
      Yeah no, Pepper, Generous heal is straight-up garbage for anything outside 2-man parties.
      You either heal one target for 140% of the Holy flash output, or you heal everyone for 320% of the Generous heal output.

      Don't even get me started on the """interruptible""" part of holy flash and the straight-up broken energy efficiency.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      SpicyPepper wrote:

      I know what's he's talking about. It's his suggestion that's i'm against. It falls into the same track like what happened with Corrupted Dungeons where they tried to balance stuffs around just that content and ruined things else where.

      Hattenhair wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      In most situations, holy flash is still better because as long as you can guarantee at least two people are being healed, it always heals for more
      (...)
      What they should really pay attention to are the trash tier Q heal spells for nature staffs.
      There, you said it.Nature's strength is split HoT's and healing alot of targets at once, but why bother learning a high skill floor technique when Holy flash does the same thing, faster, in a burst manner and is just about as uninterruptible (excluding accidents) as nature Q variants.
      Using a 1504 IP GH staff paired with a 60% healing bonus set (cleric + agressive passives) and a regular t7 omelette, we get:
      Generous heal:
      • 573 Health healed
      • 0.61s cast time, 1.73s cooldown, 2.34s total.
      • 31 energy cost, 794 EPM (energy per minute)
      • 14692 HPM (health per minute), 18.5 EE (energy efficiency, healing per point of energy)
      Holy Flash:
      • 564 Health healed
      • 0.35s cast time (+0.35 hitdelay), 3.03s cooldown, 3.38s total.
      • 36 energy cost, 639 EPM.
      TargetsHPMEE
      11001215.7
      22002431.3
      33003647
      44004862.7
      55006078.3

      As a short conclusion, my gripes with holy flash are:
      1. You just can't fucking interrupt it with intent. 0.35s - "green" ping is on the edge of average reaction time, and that's not considering the usually hectic battlefield and hitdelays on interrupt spells.
        Getting interrupted by enemies completely by accident kills your HPM, and is generally frustrating that chance determines your success.
      2. It becomes stupidly energy efficient at 2+ targets. The druid which has less healing output but better energy management becomes less viable as the latter becomes a non-issue for holy.
      3. With hypermobility, dashes and such all around, it's quite easy to miss it.
      4. Can't cast-cancel the spell even with minor ping because of the 60% limiter and the short cast-time.
      The suggestions:
      1. Move the hitdelay into cast-time to fix issues (1) and (3), with the latter fixing issue (4) in a cascade.
      2. Reduce the power level of the spell (less healing per cast), and make it more spammable (less cooldown), to counteract the spell being interruptible by enemies.
      3. Reduce the received healing amount slightly, the more targets you heal at once (~5%, or less), contributing to fixing issue (2).
      P.S:
      It's fucking bullshit, I am tired of faceslapping my keyboard with holy flash, while generous heal is hardly able to compete while also requiring more skill to use.
      Yeah no, Pepper, Generous heal is straight-up garbage for anything outside 2-man parties.You either heal one target for 140% of the Holy flash output, or you heal everyone for 320% of the Generous heal output.

      Don't even get me started on the """interruptible""" part of holy flash and the straight-up broken energy efficiency.
      I agree with a lot of what you stated here, especially the stats about how Holy Flash > Generous Heal = Facts.

      However, there are absolutely things that I completely disagree with as well.

      1. BUFF Generous Heal correctly, as I stated in the beginning of my post in this Thread, to make it an actually competitive viable option. DO NOT NERF Holy Flash.. there is no reason to when the general Consensus of players still ALL agree that Druidic Staff is the stronger Meta and Nature > Holy in any High level of Competitive 5v5 gameplay. Generous Heal should be buffed to compete with Holy Flash, but nerfing Holy Flash in any way would only create an even larger gap between Holy & Nature healers in high ranked play where you already never see any Holy players because Nature has the clear advantage.

      2. I'm okay with Nature being advantageous considering that it does require an even HIGHER skill ceiling to play than Holy does.

      3. I'm actually also okay with Holy Flash being stronger than Generous Heal because Holy Flash has a significantly higher Skill Ceiling than Generous Heal does and the majority of Holy players are not quite good enough to even land their Holy Flash on moving targets which is probably the main reason that ANYONE thinks Generous Heal is any good at all because otherwise it is complete garbage as you pointed out yourself. Holy Flash should remain the "better" option because it requires MORE skill to use efficiently, however, Generous Heal does deserve Buffs to make it at least a viable alternative for anything besides *only* 2 person content.

      4. Generous Heal is Target healing that literally cannot miss it's Target, so there is no possible way that it can be considered "requiring more skill to use" than Holy Flash, which can 100% miss and heal NO BODY if you are not good at using it lol.

      5. Holy Flash can ABSOLUTELY be interrupted btw... Good Tanks do it ALL the time to me. There are some Tanks that I have faced that are SO good at interrupting Holy Flash heals that I legit can't cast a single heal for very long periods of time.. one person who was best at it is a friend of mine that I faced in skirmishes before, and he was able to swap out my heal target out of my actual Holy Flash AOE so that my spell wouldn't land, consistently, which was SO annoying especially if my target was swapped at the perfect time where they were low health, and THEN he would interrupt me on the next heal every time, basically every time the enemy team got one of my teammates down to around 30% health that target would die no matter what because they would swap them out of my heal first, then interrupt me, all while still focusing the target. It was nearly impossible to heal against them, but the point is that there are plenty of Tanks that I face that know how to interrupt Holy Flash heals very consistently, it is not nearly as difficult as you think it is or make it seem to be, it happens to me all the time which is exactly one of the reasons that people consider Nature > Holy in higher level competitive PVP... Holy is much easier to interrupt than Nature ever will be!

      (ALL that being said I still remain a Holy Main because it is what I prefer and enjoy playing the most, but everything that I said above is true and you won't find many top players using Holy over Nature like myself)
      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Healheart ().

    • Healheart wrote:

      Holy Flash can ABSOLUTELY be interrupted btw...
      It's physically challenging to do so on reaction. It is definitely possible in games with extreme smoothness of animation while you're in a rush or extremely concentrated and within a 40ms ping range (Battlerite comes to mind). I would certainly NOT say the same thing about Albion where animations are jagged and unrefined and average ping is 150-200 for most players in Europe. The circumstances are far from feasible to execute the interrupts consistently.
      You can attempt to guess the cast timings of the enemy healer and go from there, which is a valid strategy, and the one experienced tanks utilize the most, but it's nowhere near comparable to the Generous Heals' ease of interruptability.

      Healheart wrote:

      I'm actually also okay with Holy Flash being stronger than Generous Heal
      I'm fine with it too, but under specific circumstances. HF should remain stronger when healing multiple targets, while the opposite goes for GH. The main issue is that HF heavily competes with GH even when healing only 2 targets - slightly less HPM, less interruptable, more energy efficient, but at the same time prone to misses and non-cancellable due to the 60% cast buffer limit.
      The latter 2 issues can be easily fixed with just "getting good at it", so the only sizeable advantage GH has in 2-man parties is the single target healing output, the lone thing that keeps it afloat.

      IMO the main separation in effectiveness should happen at 3 targets, NOT 2. The main difficulty factor in healing efficiency should be team coordination and positioning, not the finnicky nature of the 0.35s hitdelay.

      Healheart wrote:

      BUFF Generous Heal correctly,
      My quoted post is a little old, I mainly referred to it for the hard data. But I still hold similar suggestions regarding ways to change HF.
      • The power level hierarchy is utterly broken with HF. It heals as much as Holy Sphere, and is honestly too much of a burst in healing output per cast for a Q slot to make any sense.
      • The hitdelay is honestly straight-up horrendous:
        1. It forces the spell to have lower cast-times, as a result it becomes un-cancellable, voiding your ability to bait interrupts from enemy tanks and melees.
        2. It makes the spell almost impossible to interrupt, as I have expanded above.
        3. The long spell cooldown in combination with hard interruptability makes interrupts infuriating and very impactful to overall spell efficiency.
        4. It makes the spell vulnerable to knockbacks, as allies could be knocked away from healing.
      Quite honestly, the hitdelay is the main issue with HF - removing it by backloading it into cast-time and compensating for it with decreased cast-times and healing output per cast seems like the best solution for me.
      Just backloading hitdelay alone allows you to access 2 major flexibility options when healing: cast-cancel baiting and cancels for when you have to make split-second decisions on your current placement of HF regarding team positioning and target amount.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Yeah we are on the same page, I would totally love for Generous Heal to be considerably better option for 2-3 person content.

      In fact, I would even enjoy it to be compareable to use in 5v5 Content so that I could run Generous Heal instead of Holy Flash when trying to focus more on a single-target healing build rather than just AOE...

      But as of its current state that is impossible, I HAVE to run Holy Flash unless I want to lose the match lol.

      I don't know about your suggestion with the hit-delay stuff, while I do agree with you that it is difficult to interrupt the cast and it is also frustrating when an enemy tank swaps or knocks my target out of the heal or the teammate runs out of it and doesn't get the heal, and there are many little annoying variables that can make it a difficult spell for both sides to deal with... at the same time I do believe that it is part of what makes the spell unique and creates a balance because it is a very powerful healing spell when able to be used correctly, but it has a rather high skill ceiling, requires teammates to understand how to get healed by it, and actually has a decent amount of unique counter play options between "difficult interrupts", knocking out players from the aoe heal on the ground, swapping out players from the aoe heal on the ground, etc.

      So I kind of like that it has its own unique strengths and weaknesses that are different than other healing spells.

      I'm actually a huge fan of the current Holy Flash the more I think about it, that's why I don't really think it needs to be changed, I just really do believe that Generous Heal is way too weak in comparison and provides almost no value unless you are literally only healing like 1-2 people maximum.

      Blows my mind that all they did was buff the cast time SLIGHTLY of Generous Heal and expect it to be able to compete with Holy Flash now, and also that there are genuinely players who believe that it is a "better" option and use it and come defend it on the Forums lol. No Offense, just hard for me to understand, considering I've tried both and it is so much clearly weaker. I think perhaps it goes back to what I said that many players are not using Holy Flash correctly or just don't have the latency, or skill for it.

      I can't even tell you how many people have told me before when I'm trying to teach them how to heal that they don't like using Holy Flash because their heals never land or they miss too often. In comparison, I myself almost never have a single Holy Flash that doesn't hit at least 2 people at once on my team in 5v5, so I'm getting more value out of my Holy Flash than I could out of Generous Heal with every single heal basically. Well, probably at least 90% of the time realistically.
      --- Arena Healer Main! Owner of the Albion Arenas Community Discord Server: https://discord.gg/hFsmwCcEvv ---