Heavy Mace counters 50% of the healers in the game

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    • Heavy Mace counters 50% of the healers in the game

      Hi Albion Devs,

      I'm not sure how long this has been ongoing, I just came back to the came from a 4 years break (launch basically).

      I've been playing a nature healer since day one, beta days, when everyone said it was gimped, I still managed to make it work.

      Now the story repeats itself, most of the healers you see is holy, because of most the metas revolving around that healer class. BUT, nature still has it's strenghts.

      Until you run into a Heavy mace, 13s cooldown aoe silence for 3 seconds and dispels all the buffs of your ennemies, nature healer hard counter basically. This came to make me think, is nature even worth playing? What is the hard counter of the different holy staves, if any? Why would 1 single weapon counter 50% of the healers in the game (if we theorize it's split half and half between holy and nature which it probably isn't).

      Please help me understand what is the thinking behind this as currently, in any 5v5 situation against a heavy mace, I'm getting literally steam rolled. Do I just totally suck and I'm supposed to find an alternative healing spell on one of the staff options in the nature tree that does not have the 3 HoT mechanic? What is it that I'm doing wrong that makes me highly despise heavy mace players as I think it requires little to no skill at all to completely anhilate any comp that has a nature healer?

      Thank you for reading.

      zoopreme, the salty healer
    • My dear nature friend i can give you some recommendations..

      -6 hours to serverreboot till serverreboot you can play everything, on a workday, it is completely irrelevant what you will probably win most solo duo or such..

      A few hours after serverreboot just play meta - holy for heal, sword spear gloves or hallowfall/ Badon longbow warbow builds ..

      I have no clue why this skill differs so much but in the 6 to 0 Timezone to serverreboot i sometimes feel i can win with a demolition hammer.

      Also the chest loot is dramatic better. I get around 5 x the loot compared to 20:00 EU times..
    • pretty sure SBI literally specified that heavy mace is the counter to nature

      nature is more resilient to hammer line CC and holy is more resilient to mace line CC
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • Any CC is good against any healer. Almost everyone uses mace, but it also has the added benefit of AoE purging of HoTs. Considering nature is currently already inferior to holy, this is just makes nature trash tier.

      Rejuvenation HoTs running on a teammate for heals while nature healer is silenced/stunned is overrated. If someone is being focused, your 3 stacks of rejuvenation that takes 8 seconds to fully utilize isn't going to save them. So what you're saying is that the best case scenario for a nature healer is also their worst case scenario that you want to avoid?

      Even so, if nature healer is silenced/stunned, you can no longer stack up your party, no W, and no E, so there is still a gap of time where your party is lacking heals (at least in 5v5+). This also requires you to predict the future on who is going to be focused down and killed before you are silenced/stunned. Whereas, as holy, you can heal immediately after a silence/stun (which makes up for lack of heals during silence/stun), and you can also escape with CC from great holy or i-frame jump with hallowfall.

      I have around 400 5v5 arena games played as holy and nature healer, so I am talking mostly from 5v5 experience.

      Also, mace doesn't counter 50% of healers, because I bet most healers are holy staff healers. Nature staff healing design needs another look. Requiring high APM and predicting the future for equal or, often times, inferior healing output compared to holy is just lame.

      IMO, one change to make nature Q1 better is to turn it into a "seed", where it is a buff attached to an ally, lasting for like 10 seconds, that activates when they take damage or falls below 80% HP. There is a small window of time where it won't activate after each seed is applied, say 1.5 second (so you can stack it while the target is being attacked). You can stack up to 3 seeds, and when it is activated, it applies a number of rejuvenations charges based on number of seeds. You can also manually activate a seed by Q-ing again on an ally with 3 seeds already, which will grant you mana like it used to and apply 3 rejuvenation charges. Also buff total output heal of rejuvenation, since seeds don't heal by themselves until activated. This removes some of the guess-work on predicting the future and high APM requirement, while boosting preventive healing, as I see nature healers as being designed for preventive healing, but often times you end up using rejuvenation for reactive healing, as in reacting to damaged allies (this is because humans cannot predict the future), but often times this is too slow since you need to press Q 3 times and wait 8 seconds for full utilization. If you're healing in reaction to damaged allies, just play holy staff, it's better for reactive healing, which is in most cases. Then, change other nature skills to be around seeds instead of rejuvenation charges (e.g., breeze would spread rejuvenation charges and not seeds, but it would be based on number of seeds on the selected target). Obviously this is a rough suggestion, but the idea should be to add better preventive healing mechanics.

      The post was edited 40 times, last by DookieCookie ().

    • Heavy Mace is annoying to face but in 5v5 nature is still better than holy. In crystal league you won't see any holys, even when they knowingly face a heavy mace since holy is currently unplayable at a high level.

      Why?
      Nature doesn't really get any beneficial scaling by being <6m from your team mates since all abilities get full value at 9-11m away. However, enemy damage and specifically the heavy mace purge gets way more value when you are standing too close together.

      So heavy mace vs nature only becomes an overwhelming counter when your team is consistently clumping at 6m or less and allowing for 2-4 man purges over and over.
      Your best chance when clumping is a problem is playing the blight staff for the extra healing output or swapping holy since holy flash has a 6m radius.

      Holy flash scales well with bad positioning, since you'll hit more teammates, while nature doesn't really get any extra value to counter-act this but performs better when people are nicely spaced out.

      Nature is also harder. So to the average player nature will seem weaker since holy can be played to full potential much easier.
    • JoeyTabonio wrote:

      Heavy Mace is annoying to face but in 5v5 nature is still better than holy. In crystal league you won't see any holys, even when they knowingly face a heavy mace since holy is currently unplayable at a high level.
      That's just flat out wrong, plenty of people play holy staffs at high levels. Even in hellgates 5v5, you will almost never see a nature staff healer. Blight staff and rejuvenation mechanics suck against instant burst.
    • DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      Heavy Mace is annoying to face but in 5v5 nature is still better than holy. In crystal league you won't see any holys, even when they knowingly face a heavy mace since holy is currently unplayable at a high level.
      That's just flat out wrong, plenty of people play holy staffs at high levels. Even in hellgates 5v5, you will almost never see a nature staff healer. Blight staff and rejuvenation mechanics suck against instant burst.
      Nature has incredibly strong burst protection because of cleanse/PoN and graveguard helmet. Holy cannot cleanse and so you can click your Q all you want but your teammate will be combo'd out.

      They stream the albion crystal league high levels all the time, you can check for yourself but you'll be searching very very far back to find any holy's being played and it will be multiple meta's ago.
    • JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      Heavy Mace is annoying to face but in 5v5 nature is still better than holy. In crystal league you won't see any holys, even when they knowingly face a heavy mace since holy is currently unplayable at a high level.
      That's just flat out wrong, plenty of people play holy staffs at high levels. Even in hellgates 5v5, you will almost never see a nature staff healer. Blight staff and rejuvenation mechanics suck against instant burst.
      Nature has incredibly strong burst protection because of cleanse/PoN and graveguard helmet. Holy cannot cleanse and so you can click your Q all you want but your teammate will be combo'd out.
      They stream the albion crystal league high levels all the time, you can check for yourself but you'll be searching very very far back to find any holy's being played and it will be multiple meta's ago.
      Do you even play holy and nature healers? PoN is trash at higher tier arenas because everyone should be bringing a purge. Graveguard helmet is not a nature staff. Nature staff cleanse heal is good for cleanse, but the trade-off is lower healing output even with 3 rejuvenation stacks.
    • DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      Heavy Mace is annoying to face but in 5v5 nature is still better than holy. In crystal league you won't see any holys, even when they knowingly face a heavy mace since holy is currently unplayable at a high level.
      That's just flat out wrong, plenty of people play holy staffs at high levels. Even in hellgates 5v5, you will almost never see a nature staff healer. Blight staff and rejuvenation mechanics suck against instant burst.
      Nature has incredibly strong burst protection because of cleanse/PoN and graveguard helmet. Holy cannot cleanse and so you can click your Q all you want but your teammate will be combo'd out.They stream the albion crystal league high levels all the time, you can check for yourself but you'll be searching very very far back to find any holy's being played and it will be multiple meta's ago.
      Do you even play holy and nature healers? PoN is trash at higher tier arenas because everyone should be bringing a purge. Graveguard helmet is not a nature staff. Nature staff cleanse heal is good for cleanse, but the trade-off is lower healing output even with 3 rejuvenation stacks.
      Yes and i'm Crystal. Graveguard helmet is a core aspect of the nature build and nature is not played without it so it's fair to take it into account.
      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
    • JoeyTabonio wrote:


      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
      If you're smart, you save the purge for the PoN on a low HP target if the nature staff healer doesn't switch, or once nature staff healer uses PoN on someone, the enemy team can just attack the healer or someone else. If more than one person gets clapped on your team, one of them is probably dead.
    • DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
      If you're smart, you save the purge for the PoN on a low HP target if the nature staff healer doesn't switch, or once nature staff healer uses PoN on someone, the enemy team can just attack the healer or someone else. If more than one person gets clapped on your team, one of them is probably dead.
      So you won't purge druid robe, cleric robe, soldier armor, hellion(in arena monkey comps), or anything like that and just save it for the PoN? Or you'll switch target when someone gets PoN'd, relieving pressure off the person I think is in trouble?

      Both of these "solutions" are things i'd love the enemy team to do.
    • JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
      If you're smart, you save the purge for the PoN on a low HP target if the nature staff healer doesn't switch, or once nature staff healer uses PoN on someone, the enemy team can just attack the healer or someone else. If more than one person gets clapped on your team, one of them is probably dead.
      So you won't purge druid robe, cleric robe, soldier armor, hellion(in arena monkey comps), or anything like that and just save it for the PoN? Or you'll switch target when someone gets PoN'd, relieving pressure off the person I think is in trouble?
      Both of these "solutions" are things i'd love the enemy team to do.
      It depends on the situation. You just threw me a bunch of armors and asked me to purge all of them at the same time, but obviously that's not how it works. You can purge using other items such as mage robe or mace. If a person has 10% HP left and has PoN and their nature healer has cleanse heal, his HP isn't going to go up much after PoN if enemy disengages (unless graveguard is off-cooldown). You save a single target purge for person with low HP. He's not always going to have his armor off cooldown every time. And not everyone will have skills off cooldown at the same time.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by DookieCookie ().

    • DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
      If you're smart, you save the purge for the PoN on a low HP target if the nature staff healer doesn't switch, or once nature staff healer uses PoN on someone, the enemy team can just attack the healer or someone else. If more than one person gets clapped on your team, one of them is probably dead.
      So you won't purge druid robe, cleric robe, soldier armor, hellion(in arena monkey comps), or anything like that and just save it for the PoN? Or you'll switch target when someone gets PoN'd, relieving pressure off the person I think is in trouble?Both of these "solutions" are things i'd love the enemy team to do.
      It depends on the situation. You just threw me a bunch of armors and asked me to purge all of them at the same time, but obviously that's not how it works. You can purge using other items such as mage robe or mace. If a person has 10% HP left and has PoN and their nature healer has cleanse heal, his HP isn't going to go up much after PoN if enemy disengages (unless graveguard is off-cooldown). You save a single target purge for person with low HP. He's not always going to have his armor off cooldown every time. And not everyone will have skills off cooldown at the same time.
      So your counter to PoN involves getting them to 10% first, and bringing a single target purge(fiend cowl) for an already low target?
      Why don't you just stalker hood them (15second cooldown) and turn them into glass instead of bring a 40s cooldown fiend cowl to remove a soft defensive on a 15s cooldown?
    • JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      DookieCookie wrote:

      JoeyTabonio wrote:

      PoN can be purged but "a purge" doesn't cover a 15second cooldown buff which can get instant value by healing immediately after the PoN. Soldier armor, royal armor, cleric robe, druid robe and lymhurst cape can all be purged, are they all trash and should not be used just incase they bring 'a purge'?
      If you're smart, you save the purge for the PoN on a low HP target if the nature staff healer doesn't switch, or once nature staff healer uses PoN on someone, the enemy team can just attack the healer or someone else. If more than one person gets clapped on your team, one of them is probably dead.
      So you won't purge druid robe, cleric robe, soldier armor, hellion(in arena monkey comps), or anything like that and just save it for the PoN? Or you'll switch target when someone gets PoN'd, relieving pressure off the person I think is in trouble?Both of these "solutions" are things i'd love the enemy team to do.
      It depends on the situation. You just threw me a bunch of armors and asked me to purge all of them at the same time, but obviously that's not how it works. You can purge using other items such as mage robe or mace. If a person has 10% HP left and has PoN and their nature healer has cleanse heal, his HP isn't going to go up much after PoN if enemy disengages (unless graveguard is off-cooldown). You save a single target purge for person with low HP. He's not always going to have his armor off cooldown every time. And not everyone will have skills off cooldown at the same time.
      So your counter to PoN involves getting them to 10% first, and bringing a single target purge(fiend cowl) for an already low target?Why don't you just stalker hood them (15second cooldown) and turn them into glass instead of bring a 40s cooldown fiend cowl to remove a soft defensive on a 15s cooldown?
      Nope, never said my counter is to get them to 10% first. If you read my post, it says "depends on the situation". I just gave you one scenario where a person is at 10% HP but has PoN on, if you have 0 purges, then you should disengage or attack someone else. If you have holy healer, then you can sustain better than their PoN healer due to better healing output, so in drawn out fights, you win. You are free to use single target purge on anything else to get a kill.

      The post was edited 9 times, last by DookieCookie ().

    • Fusionbomb wrote:

      I agree with Joey. Nature is better than holy when played well in 5v5.
      the key here is highly coordinated team play

      i agree that nature has its strengths but holy is more new player friendly thats about it
      its much more forgiving to play as holy
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build