Pinned Balance Changes - Into The Fray

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      • Cursed Tar (all Cursed Staffs)
        • Added the 10% slow back to the ability
      That is my favorite one - sword has permanent 36% movement, dagger Q jumps over the tar, bow frost over tar

      To see the danger of kiting builds, while every build just laughs about 10% slow or simply jumps over it is really funny and tells a lot about the testers...

      Most physical e.g. bow have this in the AA or Q, so does spear..
    • @YeSer
      Honestly i dont know how to deal with you , its like we are playing a different game

      HONESTLY are you suggesting DPS nature / HOLY in a group fight?
      do you not read inbetween the lines where SBI posted multiple times why they wanted to stop certain play styles?

      SBI perfectly state that they wanted to curb healer hit and run play style

      Here quote by retroman in this post page 2
      We already made the following adjustments, these are mainly aimed at keeping the Self Sustaining Healer and new endless kiting builds with magic staffs in check in Corrupted Dungeons:

      This means if you want to corrupted dungeon with healing staff take damage Q.
      then the damage values should be for Solo PvP and PvE

      and in open world Who the hell plays DPS healing staff
      This may be a sandbox game but there should be limits on usage to keep game balance

      the changes to damage Q is for nature and holy to solo play easier aka Solo PvE and solo PvP
      if its unable to be competitive in solo play then yes we can think about buffing Smite On holy staff
      You just have to make a convincing argument filled with values pull out from server + a video

      but if you think that nature should have as much DPS as a fire staff in the open world in some form of self healing bruiser that deals insane damage with auto attacks
      like before roads of avalon patch then i will have you know that that is not balanced in any why shape or form

      also damage reduction and healing reduction only applies to corrupted dungeons so yes your healing bruiser build can work in open world like you like
      but it would only emphasize that damage and healing values need to be further balanced open world
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      @YeSer
      Honestly i dont know how to deal with you , its like we are playing a different game

      HONESTLY are you suggesting DPS nature / HOLY in a group fight?
      do you not read inbetween the lines where SBI posted multiple times why they wanted to stop certain play styles?

      SBI perfectly state that they wanted to curb healer hit and run play style

      Here quote by retroman in this post page 2
      We already made the following adjustments, these are mainly aimed at keeping the Self Sustaining Healer and new endless kiting builds with magic staffs in check in Corrupted Dungeons:

      This means if you want to corrupted dungeon with healing staff take damage Q.
      then the damage values should be for Solo PvP and PvE

      and in open world Who the hell plays DPS healing staff
      This may be a sandbox game but there should be limits on usage to keep game balance

      the changes to damage Q is for nature and holy to solo play easier aka Solo PvE and solo PvP
      if its unable to be competitive in solo play then yes we can think about buffing Smite On holy staff
      You just have to make a convincing argument filled with values pull out from server + a video

      but if you think that nature should have as much DPS as a fire staff in the open world in some form of self healing bruiser that deals insane damage with auto attacks
      like before roads of avalon patch then i will have you know that that is not balanced in any why shape or form

      also damage reduction and healing reduction only applies to corrupted dungeons so yes your healing bruiser build can work in open world like you like
      but it would only emphasize that damage and healing values need to be further balanced open world
      Okay - i explain to you as you are five:

      the main heal on holy and for most part of nature comes from Q.
      A Q on holy heals for around 450 life in cloth, and you can spam it.
      A E on 1h holy does depending on life and passive buff around 400-600 life. A lifetouch 1000-1200 - but u stand and channel, that's why this is irrelevant without mobility..as you eat the damage while you heal..

      Take as an example pike - the E nullifies any heal you do with W/E on any heal staff. A Pike E does in cloth around 1400-1600 damage all 15 secs. You Cannot heal trade that..except you have heal Q..what a damage healer not has

      If you now put the Q of the healer on less damage than the Q of the DD, the E/W of DD simply fcks the healer if they trade...

      Another story is, if the healer can get away and heal twice while DD cannot damage, then it is healer advantage.

      But healer have zero mobility, except the one holy hallowfall that made a problem in the past..where you could jump with E. Introducing mobility was just plain stupid and brought us to the messed up balance.

      Old balance was - no mobility on heal, the W/E of DD is balancing heal spells.

      Then Q is full damage on both..

      That's btw why the huge forcefield knock is an issue, because it gives a full lifetouch heal without taking damage on successful kick

      To my active times as lifetouch was meta in 2 hg, healers only healed with Q, W/E was utility, lifetouch E was just used to remove CC and never fully channeled..

      That's why crippling Q on Nature and Holy is basically removing these from 1 on 1 pvp

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Trial_hard ().

    • i would not say crippling for holy and nature dps builds
      numbers can be changed

      but the initial numbers for the reworked abilities are way over tuned
      you are having a ability that deals more than DPS staff level of ability damage with less cooldown and CC on top of that?

      just calculate damage from 1 empowered auto and a 0.5 second proc of nature aka 200+140+80 and you would deal about 420 damage with a single cast of Q thorns and 1 auto
      this is compared to 380 damage from a single bow Q or 530 damage from ice shard cast

      and this is just 0.5 sec of thorns and 1 auto. lets not forget all the utility of 25% slow and ability to cast 3 times with no cooldown

      and also you say dps weapons like pike deals insane damage but you did not take into account armor and resistance values
      heals does not take into account armor values but damage does so you would need less casts to heal up compared to what you said
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      i would not say crippling for holy and nature dps builds
      numbers can be changed

      but the initial numbers for the reworked abilities are way over tuned
      you are having a ability that deals more than DPS staff level of ability damage with less cooldown and CC on top of that?

      just calculate damage from 1 empowered auto and a 0.5 second proc of nature aka 200+140+80 and you would deal about 420 damage with a single cast of Q thorns and 1 auto
      this is compared to 380 damage from a single bow Q or 530 damage from ice shard cast

      and this is just 0.5 sec of thorns and 1 auto. lets not forget all the utility of 25% slow and ability to cast 3 times with no cooldown

      and also you say dps weapons like pike deals insane damage but you did not take into account armor and resistance values
      heals does not take into account armor values but damage does so you would need less casts to heal up compared to what you said
      so it need buff u need a auto to deal less dmg than a frost and a auto to deal 40dps more than bow when the bow has knock back utility too?
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      @YeSer
      Honestly i dont know how to deal with you , its like we are playing a different game

      HONESTLY are you suggesting DPS nature / HOLY in a group fight?
      What's WRONG with that in a game that's all about "playing what you want"? LOL god forbid someone play with a group with a weapon they like

      The_Support_God wrote:



      and in open world Who the hell plays DPS healing staff

      This may be a sandbox game but there should be limits on usage to keep game balance

      ?????????????????
      Bruh, "screw dps healing staves, limit them for the sake of game balance" nice, I almost feel terrible that your advice was read by and applied by Retro at this point when your mentality is this

      The_Support_God wrote:




      the changes to damage Q is for nature and holy to solo play easier aka Solo PvE and solo PvP
      if its unable to be competitive in solo play then yes we can think about buffing Smite On holy staff
      You just have to make a convincing argument filled with values pull out from server + a video

      Thorns are going to be unable to be competitive in solo play when there was a 80% reduction in damage vs players on the first patch, thanks to your post that compared power of abilities on paper, yet when I bring those numbers up, aka hitting 70 per dot on 6.1 100 spec vs hitting 90 on 8.3 840/840 tree, in an area or multiple of those which can be easily moved around or through and only get 4 instances of damage lol. Where's YOUR video of a convincing argument?



      The_Support_God wrote:



      just calculate damage from 1 empowered auto and a 0.5 second proc of nature aka 200+140+80 and you would deal about 420 damage with a single cast of Q thorns and 1 auto
      What are you hitting that high on? Definitely not players


      The_Support_God wrote:

      and also you say dps weapons like pike deals insane damage but you did not take into account armor and resistance values
      Ironic, isn't it...
    • Love to see new changes to the game. That being said I would love to see a buff for the wailing bow. Nothing crazy, just enough to make it somewhat viable in ZvZ compared to the numerous amounts of other ZvZ weapons that outclass it, in both damage and utility in some cases
    • @Glasses where is your calculations?
      you say 70 damage per auto and ect where is your comparison and relation to other weapons?

      you say 70 damage against players but did not specify what is the players wearing and there was no reference to what other weapons deal with the same ip

      i can also say that the 140 damage per auto on rework thorns at 840/840 T8 item was base damage and you take only 70 damage after resistance
      by that logic then skills from other weapons would deal way way less damage then what i stated due to resistance

      also Play Dps while you are using a healer staff in a group fight and i can tell you in any reasonable group fight your whole team is going to get wrecked
      because the only thing you are contributing is healing sickness because your Q is 80% of your healing in group fights

      therefore the only reasonable use for dps Q is solo play and yet it has the numbers was so out of balance on initial release
      its like back when great nature was able to 1vX players or flash heal spam which was healing more than reg bow or bolt caster can do damage


      you HAD a Slow, insane aoe, and as much damage as fire all on a single skill
      if you and the rest of the people cant understand this

      then i can say the same why bow has the frost arrow and multi shot arrow i can say that multi shot should have less cooldown and 0 cast time and frost shot have 0 cast time
      frost Q should have less cast time or more damage, or swords should have their sword stacks not removed on E
      spear glaive should not be nerfed , wild fire E should not be nerf, and CC should be able to stack and last longer for 1h mace
      and forcefield should not change and merc jacket procs on DoT

      if you want to let nature have over the top Q then you and the others cannot blame frost shot and multi shot is OP either or for any weapon or mechanic for that matter

      its either you nerf everything to a balance state or you buff everything to match the strongest weapon
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build

      The post was edited 2 times, last by The_Support_God ().

    • The_Support_God wrote:

      also Play Dps while you are using a healer staff in a group fight and i can tell you in any reasonable group fight your whole team is going to get wrecked

      because the only thing you are contributing is healing sickness because your Q is 80% of your healing in group fights

      therefore the only reasonable use for dps Q is solo play and yet it has the numbers was so out of balance on initial release
      its like back when great nature was able to 1vX players or flash heal spam which was healing more than reg bow or bolt caster can do damage
      Alright, i'm done here

      Playing DPS means my team dies because I contribute healing sickness with my Q? What?

      There's more ways to solve healing staves 1vXing than gutting their damage to oblivion, both in CDs and Open World.

      I'll agree to disagree at this point, we cannot see eye to eye and its understandable, i'll just wait for the final patch notes that'll hit live and consider whether nature is going to be something i'll continue using or not
    • Just make healing staffs specialize in healing and make the damage Q only deal damage to PvE

      its much easier for all of us that way

      making them be able to Dps and we have people trying to make the dps version of HEALING STAFFS stronger than Actual Dps builds

      i will not have another hallowfall meta in the game
      where hallow fall E had everything and the price for a single 4.3 hallowfall was 2 Mil
      and was the best weapon in every scenario even corrupted dungeons
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      Just make healing staffs specialize in healing and make the damage Q only deal damage to PvE

      its much easier for all of us that way

      making them be able to Dps and we have people trying to make the dps version of HEALING STAFFS stronger than Actual Dps builds

      i will not have another hallowfall meta in the game
      where hallow fall E had everything and the price for a single 4.3 hallowfall was 2 Mil
      and was the best weapon in every scenario even corrupted dungeons
      Troll - if u finally have tuned the game to your skill level there won't be much people left to play against
    • @The_Support_God
      It's quite easy honestly.

      If we are speaking on an individual level then healing W/E spells always fall slightly behind damaging W/E alternatives, the bulk of it all is usually compensated with the massive healing output provided by Q spell slots, be in Generous heal, Rejuvenation, or whatever else.
      Pretending that damaging Q's on healers and DPS are about the same performance-wise, you only have to balance one factor - healers being able to cast their W and E spell slots without an enemy or allied target nearby (i.e: onto themselves), unlike the DPS. This all follows one theme - reducing the chances that a healer could cast their W/E without getting punished, which in 1v1 combat is reliant on a single condition - the ability to out-kite your opponent.

      Balancing healer bruisers consists of literally one thing - depriving them of advantageous mobility like leaps or movespeed buffs. You don't even need to balance the healing values in most cases, for the reasons mentioned above and the massive dependency on their healing Q spell slots to compensate for the lack of it provided by W's and E's.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Healing W/E options in my opinion are equal to damage options because their values are compensated for group play
      they had to reduce healing by 30% to make it this weaker in corrupted dungeon

      because of how easy it is to disengage and cast W and E 1 or 2 rotations to heal up before reengaging
      even without Q healing they have enough sustain in Hit and run tactics where they can shrug off damage they take

      then why i have problems with thorns and bramble seed? and not smite? simple
      your pre change thorns Q has the power budget equal to most E on weapons in the game. it had everything. CC, high damage, AoE denial,
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      Healing W/E options in my opinion are equal to damage options because their values are compensated for group play
      they had to reduce healing by 30% to make it this weaker in corrupted dungeon
      If we take the 2 most bland examples - 1H holy E under 40% VS 3-stack Broadsword E, the damage/healing should be about the same (~650, give or take 50, after resistances at 1150 IP in full cloth, I'm too lazy to log in for concrete numbers). Same goes for AoE's - Kingmaker VS Fallen, etc. Of course, they're not as bland as pure healing/damage with utility and different downsides added on top (stack requirements, delays, cast-times, cleanses, you name it), but the gist of it stays the same - the power level of individually selected W/E spells is roughly equal.

      The reason why there's a healing reduction debuff in CRDs is because of sustain stacking - old nature staff is a good example which can abuse such a system, doesn't matter how much damage you deal as long as you can outheal the damage you receive. Double merc meta is also a good example.
      The reason why there's a healing reduction debuff in 2v2 HG's is that the Q healing slots truly, as you mentioned, have 5v5 values.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      because of how easy it is to disengage and cast W and E 1 or 2 rotations to heal up before reengaging
      even without Q healing they have enough sustain in Hit and run tactics where they can shrug off damage they take
      Did you read my post? That's exactly why I mentioned that healer bruisers should not have mobility options - to limit their ability to cast W/E sustain on a whim unpunished.

      The_Support_God wrote:

      then why i have problems with thorns and bramble seed? and not smite? simple
      your pre change thorns Q has the power budget equal to most E on weapons in the game. it had everything. CC, high damage, AoE denial,
      That's an issue of a singular spell, not an issue of healer-bruisers as a sub-class. To be quite honest I still don't understand what's up with all of these overloaded Qs lately, they have the mechanics akin to W or even E spells. Qs should be very understandable and easy to execute, and not whatever the new thorns are.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Quagga wrote:

      is 1 stack vile curse on Desecrate necessary ?
      yes?

      while it does not do super damage its part of the kit to help curse keep vile stacks up

      other root spells have higher damage i dont see why desecrate should lose the curse stacks
      not every curse can make get players at 4 stacks super fast like great curse
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      Quagga wrote:

      is 1 stack vile curse on Desecrate necessary ?
      yes?
      while it does not do super damage its part of the kit to help curse keep vile stacks up

      other root spells have higher damage i dont see why desecrate should lose the curse stacks
      not every curse can make get players at 4 stacks super fast like great curse
      The original version didn't have one stack, after adding caerleon cape I don't see any problems with fast stacking....

      Worth considering, the curse itself doesn't require much skill other than spamming Q. Also, now the bomb can't be cleansed... It would be nice to have access to a counter in the form of outrotations/invis/mobility.
      (Q,Q,W,E,Q) full combo in less than 2 seconds, therefore 1 vile curse from Desecrate if it would be gone for that bomb which cannot be cleansed, seems to be a fair exchange)
    • Hummm... while i feel its ok the way it is
      you do have a point

      i still think not removing the damage on decerate completely would be a better choice if what you fear about stacking vile stacks.
      change from adding 1 stack of decerate to a low flat damage value like frost shot or frost blink or ect

      maybe around the 350+- flat damage range at 700/700 T8 IP score

      but i think we see the meta first before think about this change because the skill when view as stand alone its quite balanced
      when talking about combining with whole kit then we can discuss it furthur after it hits live
      Embrace the Risk Vs Reward. Do not deny it
      For it will only bring you pain

      #RiskVSRewardCult

      Currently aiming for 120 on all Armors related to Morningstar Build