Balance Changes - Into The Fray

    • Retroman wrote:

      Here are some more changes:

      • Cursed Tar (all Cursed Staffs)
        • Added the 10% slow back to the ability
      • Grudge (all Cursed Staffs)
        • Max Charges: 7 -> 4
        • Auto Attack 0.0s: 5 -> 10
        • Auto Attack 0.5s: 7 -> 20
        • Auto Attack 1.0s: 10 -> 40
        • Auto Attack 1.5s: 14 -> 70
        • Auto Attack 2.0s: 19 -> 120
      • Searing Flame (all Fire Staffs)
        • Standtime: 0.15s -> 0s
      • Pyroblast (one-handed Fire Staff)
        • Increased the projectile speed
        • (we are looking into increasing the aim-rotation speed, but that requires to handle this ability completely different on the back end to communicate this properly to all other clients in real time)
      • Flame Pillar (Great Fire Staff)
        • Hit Delay: 1s -> 0.8s
      • Living Torch (Infernal Staff)
        • Cooldown: 30s -> 20s
        • Cast Range: 12m -> 14m
        • Energycost: 15 -> 12
      • Threatening Strike (all Hammers)
        • Hit Delay: 0.4s -> 0.1s
        • Standtime: 0.4s -> 0.1s
        • Cooldown: 3s -> 2s
      • Giant Steps (Forge Hammers)
        • Giant Smash Damage: 90 -> 100
      • Desperate Prayer (one handed Holy Staff
        • Buff Duration: 12s -> 15s
      • Fleet Footwork (all War Gloves)
        • Kick - Damage: 50 -> 64
        • Kick - Slightly increased hitbox
        • The step can now be used even without hitting an enemy during the kick
        • Step - Buff Duration: 3s -> 5s

      I appreciate your effort on dual swords Retroman but you guys still did not touch the main problem on the weapon. The E is usually hits wrong place just like demonfang. Also the skill animation is so slow even enough to get interrupt from mobs. I suggestion is make it just like bear paws E. give a bit more range and animation speed but leave it interruptible and delete the att speed-dmg buff which doesnt even make sense to playstyle on this weapon. But I liked the change that we will not lose the stacks on E because we never hits our E but we lost our stacks :D
      quit the game because of lack of content for solo players///11.07.2022

    • Retroman wrote:

      Thanks for the feedback.

      We already made the following adjustments, these are mainly aimed at keeping the Self Sustaining Healer and new endless kiting builds with magic staffs in check in Corrupted Dungeons:

      • Cursed Tar
        • Removed slow
        • Casttime 0s -> 0.3s
      • Curse Passive Hit and Run
        • activates after every 4 -> 6 Casts
      • Thorn Growth
        • Area Damage 40 -> 10 (vs. players)
        • Area Damage 40 -> 30 (vs. mobs)
      • Rejuvenating Flower
        • Grow time 3s -> 2.5s
        • Throwing a level 1 flower now causes a 2s cooldown (This is to prevent spam casting low power flowers without cooldown)
      • Holy & Nature:
        • Self Healing Sickness Duration: 60s -> 120s
      • Corrupted Dungeons:
        • Casting any Holy- or Nature Q-slot Healing spell inside a corrupted dungeons, reduces the caster's damage by 50% for 60s


      We are still going through more of the other feedback and I'll post more updates later.

      Cheers,
      Retro

      Demonic is one of anti healing weapons,now already rework to cc weapons,can you make great curse to be next anti healing weapons ?

    • Giant Steps (Forge Hammers)

      Giant Smash Damage: 90 -> 100
      I think in order for this weapon to become viable it should get its E cooldown affected by cooldown reduction abilities (royal jacket, refreshing sprint etc) even when in the giant form. Because currently it's either or, between getting higher E uptime and getting more burst damage while it's active. Threatening strike CD reduction is also a good idea because it gives a filler ability damage that FH lack after losing its bonus to auto attack damage.

    • Retroman wrote:


      • Corrupted Dungeons:
        • Casting any Holy- or Nature Q-slot Healing spell inside a corrupted dungeons, reduces the caster's damage by 50% for 60s


      Cheers,
      Retro
      so u want healer back to cds or not.. u rework holy q2 to a arcane q withou silence thats mean its uselles in corrupted at all. deleting the not much popular holy build but the last one exist healer build. then the nature new dmg q could back to the field but with the more than 70% dmg nerf to the originl q.. that with original q its lose vs range like bow or same kiting build. then its no healer build inside corrupt with q dmg or not. u know what mean 70% of change.. that the first version or the new version are puted by random.and i hope the old version are the bad and not the news one.

      all those changes is for what intentions? to made player play it or just do time for ur work.. at end of every changes no one using them.. like the demonfang.. 5 patch changes and then return to the first version of doing the direct dmg. but not the original version this version is much power that only self dmg with the last hit.. then u still remember why u change the direct dmg with demonfang? so now its much powefull than the first version that need nerf. wheres is the logic of those changes.

      Why the nerf healing in cds 20% to 30% now, whats the sense of those nerf that is to debuff healer but with this 50% dmg reduccion who will play healer in cds with heal q? then those heal reduccion is to nerf merc jacket? becouse those thing only will afect mercenary jacket, its not reduce weapon pasive ,roasted food regen ..where the trinity spear recovery 50 hp with each autoatack and this recovery isnt afected by heal reduccion , onlty the mercenary jacket.

      In the end of all the changes.only the curse is the most affected... no proc mercenary jacket with dot. keep nerfing heal , nerfed the pasive of curse?? i dont see those change intentions.curse is already desapead in cds with the new q3 u think its will be good in cds? how many fire with q2 u see in cds.. its no uselles at all those area skill ..even in open world..its more uselles .. u has all the map to run and not hit by those area.
      and when the rework to force field..why its knock back 14m?when u will see that the hit and run build is working in base with the helmet knock-back , its fully cloth helmet already in cds.


      so u dont want see any healer in cds but fully healer in open world?
      fully healer in misty of avalon runing alone and be unkilleable..fast farm with new q slot then swap to heal q and become undead in mist solo mode? i dont know how time mist will come live but with the game mecanic its will be more peanfull to be balanced than cds.. if u cant manage the healer in cds.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by YeSer ().

    • The thing is @YeSer

      Damage Q aka smite and throns healer is acceptable in corrupted dungeons (1v1)
      Healer Q with mage cowl and kite/heal is not acceptable in corrupted dungeons because its 1V1

      healer in open world unkillable is acceptable because you are NOT 1v1
      because you have teamates to Help CC and there are no Traps and you are also able to disenage and not stuck breaking crystals
      The Tank Who Bonks

    • The_Support_God wrote:

      The thing is @YeSer

      Damage Q aka smite and throns healer is acceptable in corrupted dungeons (1v1)
      Healer Q with mage cowl and kite/heal is not acceptable in corrupted dungeons because its 1V1

      healer in open world unkillable is acceptable because you are NOT 1v1
      because you have teamates to Help CC and there are no Traps and you are also able to disenage and not stuck breaking crystals
      the smite change its deleted it in cds.. let see what about the thron change the healer in cds.. and see when they will nerf cloth helmet in cds.. now 99% of cds build use cloth helmet.

      and the most important part ..how change the meta with those change..hope it change samething.

    • If a dev team needs to change a weapon in damage scaling between first and second iteration by 75% i know why I left and I know why I shouldn't bothered to come back.

      Thorn in pvp is now 10 damage instead of 40 per AOE. And it needs in REWORK already a split between PVE (30 Damage) and PvP (10) Damage.

      It's already again applying wheel chair mechanic..

      Other topic is smite, with current CD it is pretty useless. The CD needs to drop by at least 50 % to make it somehow viable in PvP.

      The question is a different one. The first rework allowed nature and holy to be viable for Solo Pvp. The second completely removed it again.

      I really call Retro out - In a PvP game, if you completely Rework all weapons, these should be capable to Solo PvP afterwards - if not safe the money and resources for the rework...

    • @Trial_hard

      I think they do not have an internal play tester team like big companies such as league of legends , dota, World of warcraft and ect
      they probaly slap some value which they think was right and then ship it to the beta testgrounds for us

      based on their pervious dev talk i can already guess that they are so busy with the many weapon and castle reworks that game balance are the last thing on their mind

      that means we are the lab rats
      and its our job as play testers to find abusable mechanics and bugs , overtuned and undertuned weapons and give feed back

      Also Smite from holy tree rework feels like playing Arcane magic shock. super high skill cap and much much harder to hit than ice shard
      it deals reasonable damage for a hard to hit skill shot with the reward of 50% reduced cooldown if it hits a target
      aka 3 second cooldown if you miss and 1.5 sec if you hit a target and your next cast against it hits harder

      Also why i am so vocal about hatting nature and holy dps is because actual players who know how to play them in corrupted dungeons and open world know how to use them to the fullest potential are basically immortal. A year ago i talk about heal values for group play, interaction with resistance , self sustain and healing on kite builds
      @Glasses
      there are many posts about fire staff wanting more CC on their Kit aka a slow on buring ground Q2
      then there is this thorn growth that is everything fire staff wanted. CC 25%, high damage and empower your autos after. which on paper sound like a great skill until you test it
      and combine it with healing.
      there are some tests that cannot be done by dueling alone you must go out into the world and corrupted dungeons
      take into account the whole kit and enviromental harzards

      Note values here is 840/840 spec with T8 gear
      and then you would come to the same conclusion as i that 3 cast Q that does 200 damage per 0.5 sec and 140 damage per auto and also a 25% slow
      combine with as much self sustain that a nature has is not good for game balance

      reducing the damage of Q to 50 damage per 0.5 sec is a good enough place to start considering most auto attacks deals around 80 damage every 0.76 sec with 1.3 attacks per second

      If thorns growth Skill was on any other weapon other than healing i would say it is a balanced skill to an extent. but its because its on a healing weapon that adding CC, mobility, high damage skills need to be taken with extra consideration.
      you cannot simply have Healing, high damage, mobility , CC , and defensive buffs all on a single weapon at the same time
      nature has healing With E and W skills. mobility with blight staff, CC with bramble seed and new throns Q, choice of bonus resistance or mobility from passive skill
      and top it off with damage.
      The Tank Who Bonks

      The post was edited 1 time, last by The_Support_God ().

    • The_Support_God wrote:



      Also why i am so vocal about hatting nature and holy dps is because actual players who know how to play them in corrupted dungeons and open world know how to use them to the fullest potential are basically immortal.
      In another post you said open world is 1 vs many in which case I doubt healing dps staves are immortal, you either forgot healing sickness exists or you think every staff has a great nature E slapped on it. Now if you die by a group running nature staves thats just the same as dying from a group with x amounts of the same weapon lol.

      Also CDs lol. We already saw they can further nerf healing reduction and the likes, specifically for that content. Just make it so ANY nature/holy that gets self healed by a weapon skill gets -50% damage and stop ruining an entire tree based on CDs again.

    • The_Support_God wrote:

      @Trial_hard

      I think they do not have an internal play tester team like big companies such as league of legends , dota, World of warcraft and ect
      they probaly slap some value which they think was right and then ship it to the beta testgrounds for us

      based on their pervious dev talk i can already guess that they are so busy with the many weapon and castle reworks that game balance are the last thing on their mind

      that means we are the lab rats
      and its our job as play testers to find abusable mechanics and bugs , overtuned and undertuned weapons and give feed back

      Also Smite from holy tree rework feels like playing Arcane magic shock. super high skill cap and much much harder to hit than ice shard
      it deals reasonable damage for a hard to hit skill shot with the reward of 50% reduced cooldown if it hits a target
      aka 3 second cooldown if you miss and 1.5 sec if you hit a target and your next cast against it hits harder

      Also why i am so vocal about hatting nature and holy dps is because actual players who know how to play them in corrupted dungeons and open world know how to use them to the fullest potential are basically immortal. A year ago i talk about heal values for group play, interaction with resistance , self sustain and healing on kite builds
      @Glasses
      there are many posts about fire staff wanting more CC on their Kit aka a slow on buring ground Q2
      then there is this thorn growth that is everything fire staff wanted. CC 25%, high damage and empower your autos after. which on paper sound like a great skill until you test it
      and combine it with healing.
      there are some tests that cannot be done by dueling alone you must go out into the world and corrupted dungeons
      take into account the whole kit and enviromental harzards

      Note values here is 840/840 spec with T8 gear
      and then you would come to the same conclusion as i that 3 cast Q that does 200 damage per 0.5 sec and 140 damage per auto and also a 25% slow
      combine with as much self sustain that a nature has is not good for game balance

      reducing the damage of Q to 50 damage per 0.5 sec is a good enough place to start considering most auto attacks deals around 80 damage every 0.76 sec with 1.3 attacks per second

      If thorns growth Skill was on any other weapon other than healing i would say it is a balanced skill to an extent. but its because its on a healing weapon that adding CC, mobility, high damage skills need to be taken with extra consideration.
      you cannot simply have Healing, high damage, mobility , CC , and defensive buffs all on a single weapon at the same time
      nature has healing With E and W skills. mobility with blight staff, CC with bramble seed and new throns Q, choice of bonus resistance or mobility from passive skill
      and top it off with damage.
      so wrong that it almost hurts...

      I take any sword, spear, bow, dagger, and completely obliterate you on any current smite build because it is simply hot garbage in CD.

      But that's not representative, as i would even in the bad shape curse is, loose chanceless with any of these weapon to Tabor on his curse

      Your biggest problem is, that you think balance should compensate individual skill handicap to your favor. This is rubbish, some people like me and you should know their limitations. I do, you try to compensate by influence Retro.

      What's better for the game? I have a strong opinion on this matter, that has never matched your's

    • @Trial_hard
      at least when i try to influence people
      i give facts based on gameplay experience and give numbers based on in-game values taken from either live or test server
      i could also have given video proof but hey not every one is so free

      if you want to prove me wrong then do it by putting down numbers and facts like @Hattenhair

      words do not mean much unless you provide proof via listed numbers or video
      Hattenhair has on numerous occasions provided video reference to proof something is broken or need fixing

      If you dont care much for the game and give such replies that deny me without proof then you would only be proving me right.

      at least give reasonable suggestions on what to improve or what factors of the skill is weak in Smite
      tell me is it the damage? the range? the cast time? the AoE? or simply because you think Holy Q1 with mage cowl is the right way to play holy that would upset every other builds out there

      you cannot simply say that any melee weapon can whack a holy senseless because changing it into a skill shot made it weaker.
      the balance team would not understand what is wrong with the skill in the first place
      The Tank Who Bonks

    • Glasses wrote:

      The_Support_God wrote:

      Also why i am so vocal about hatting nature and holy dps is because actual players who know how to play them in corrupted dungeons and open world know how to use them to the fullest potential are basically immortal.
      In another post you said open world is 1 vs many in which case I doubt healing dps staves are immortal, you either forgot healing sickness exists or you think every staff has a great nature E slapped on it. Now if you die by a group running nature staves thats just the same as dying from a group with x amounts of the same weapon lol.
      Also CDs lol. We already saw they can further nerf healing reduction and the likes, specifically for that content. Just make it so ANY nature/holy that gets self healed by a weapon skill gets -50% damage and stop ruining an entire tree based on CDs again.
      At this point I think support god is just a troll and never plays nature/holy, but neither does retroman so that is fine.

    • The_Support_God wrote:

      @Trial_hard




      If thorns growth Skill was on any other weapon other than healing i would say it is a balanced skill to an extent. but its because its on a healing weapon that adding CC, mobility, high damage skills need to be taken with extra consideration.
      you cannot simply have Healing, high damage, mobility , CC , and defensive buffs all on a single weapon at the same time
      nature has healing With E and W skills. mobility with blight staff, CC with bramble seed and new throns Q, choice of bonus resistance or mobility from passive skill
      and top it off with damage.

      healer without heal q its not healer anymore,Almost the 90% heal becomes from the Q. If a healer weapon Q do less dmg than other range weapons then why player will play those dmg Q? Its slower to pve its useless in pvp as dmg dealer, then why the work to rework them? This q is slower than before (the patch before the 50%dmg reductions)in pve ,no one will take a dmg q spell in team works with another healer, no reason to take a slow and a autoatack dmg dealer in group figth before sustain helaer, then its uses in 1 vs x try to kill, how the X lose the figth vs a nature that put slow in a area, any kind of skill that put a area in the groud is garbage to kill if theres no other cc. and where it needed doing autoatack to do dmg. Then where the reason to use them ? Any where. Becouse if the natire want survive in the figth they just live longer with the heal q, any where this dmg Q is worth, Then why the time to rework them?

      Then we take a look to holy new q , wheres it can be used? If we compare it to the arcane q its not used any place. Then why the work to rework them?reducing more the use.at least the old one has a build in cds , the new one it’s completely garbages in pvp , the worst kid skill is a skill with cast time and cds q, u cant burst ur dmg with cast speed either with cd reduction .


      demonic change deleted it from the game , as a dps deler its do low dmg, need stack to produce fear and its has 30s cd, not avaible use in zvz one got a knigh helmet , and need 4stack for a 2sec fear.

      1h fire the new charge skill will not be able to use either 2sec of cast time in pvp vs melee they just go back of the player , vs range they just walk 2 step back.


      In other words, in corrupted dungeon, smite holy deleted, in 2v2 demonic deleted in 5v5 its deleted in high probability,
      1h fire still a garbage in any where. The mecanic of charge of this skill has to take a look. Let player move while charging at least?

      only the infernal staff has same use in small figh, then the rest are nerff in my view. When they are not used but now its less place to use.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by YeSer ().

    • By the way, what are you gonna do with those half-rats in CDs, who knock down 1 or 2 crystals and fight to check whether you are good. They can run away with 10 stacks of bats debuff easily.

      They are usally sword, spear or bow. I have no problem that they can use mobility to dodge my shots or to reset a fight. What I CAN NOT accpet is that they fight with me and reset 20 rounds, and knock the last crystal. As you can see, all those top ranked players are actually abusing the mobtilty of sword, spears and bows, they can choose who they want to fight and when to leave without risk. Say if it is a good spear vs good cursestaff(firestaff, trinity, xbow or any weapon without much mobilty ), the spears can leave whenever he wants.

      If you do not believe, check the websites like murder ledger. In top 10 players, they are all swords, spears and bows. The evidence has clearly showed that mobilty of those weapons have been abused to be half-rats. And they are painfull for those low mobility weapons.

      Some adjustments should be made in CDs. Rats are okay. Those who build 8.3 swords, spears and bows without risks(if you are good, not necessrily execellent) are not healthy for the environment of CD.

      My suggesion is that after certain time(so pure-rats do not get punished, they knock down crystals fastly), leaving the match by destrucing the crystal get punished in the way like they use siphoned energy. Or even like after 5 stacks of bats, leaving the match is forbidden.

    • hgggk wrote:

      By the way, what are you gonna do with those half-rats in CDs, who knock down 1 or 2 crystals and fight to check whether you are good. They can run away with 10 stacks of bats debuff easily.

      They are usally sword, spear or bow. I have no problem that they can use mobility to dodge my shots or to reset a fight. What I CAN NOT accpet is that they fight with me and reset 20 rounds, and knock the last crystal. As you can see, all those top ranked players are actually abusing the mobtilty of sword, spears and bows, they can choose who they want to fight and when to leave without risk. Say if it is a good spear vs good cursestaff(firestaff, trinity, xbow or any weapon without much mobilty ), the spears can leave whenever he wants.

      If you do not believe, check the websites like murder ledger. In top 10 players, they are all swords, spears and bows. The evidence has clearly showed that mobilty of those weapons have been abused to be half-rats. And they are painfull for those low mobility weapons.

      Some adjustments should be made in CDs. Rats are okay. Those who build 8.3 swords, spears and bows without risks(if you are good, not necessrily execellent) are not healthy for the environment of CD.

      My suggesion is that after certain time(so pure-rats do not get punished, they knock down crystals fastly), leaving the match by destrucing the crystal get punished in the way like they use siphoned energy. Or even like after 5 stacks of bats, leaving the match is forbidden.
      potentially the last idea you mentioned is the best.

      Based on bats on both players the crystal health should increase.
      5 bats on both in total - double health of crystal
      10 bats on both in total - 4 times health of crystal

      On top let the crystal health double per 3 minutes after intrusion

    • The main tool they use to reset , the force field. In the moment they swap to it u are never able to kill them any more

      hgggk wrote:

      By the way, what are you gonna do with those half-rats in CDs, who knock down 1 or 2 crystals and fight to check whether you are good. They can run away with 10 stacks of bats debuff easily.

      They are usally sword, spear or bow. I have no problem that they can use mobility to dodge my shots or to reset a fight. What I CAN NOT accpet is that they fight with me and reset 20 rounds, and knock the last crystal. As you can see, all those top ranked players are actually abusing the mobtilty of sword, spears and bows, they can choose who they want to fight and when to leave without risk. Say if it is a good spear vs good cursestaff(firestaff, trinity, xbow or any weapon without much mobilty ), the spears can leave whenever he wants.

      If you do not believe, check the websites like murder ledger. In top 10 players, they are all swords, spears and bows. The evidence has clearly showed that mobilty of those weapons have been abused to be half-rats. And they are painfull for those low mobility weapons.

      Some adjustments should be made in CDs. Rats are okay. Those who build 8.3 swords, spears and bows without risks(if you are good, not necessrily execellent) are not healthy for the environment of CD.

      My suggesion is that after certain time(so pure-rats do not get punished, they knock down crystals fastly), leaving the match by destrucing the crystal get punished in the way like they use siphoned energy. Or even like after 5 stacks of bats, leaving the match is forbidden.

    • why sbi forcing player to play same kind of weapons?
      With the glove sbi is forcing every playe to play them buffing them parch last patch, then the spike glove destroy the game, and nerf las nerf what is good , its time to delete de glaive now. Its that hard to dev to see why the glaive is that op? Its not only the glaive its the combo of quatterstaff +glaive +force field knock back, why stun time has reducction but knock back hasnt? If u hited by 2force field one in the air of other u just flyed 28m , this is the problem,With the glove they can do the same combo wait the patch live and see how the game style keep unchanged only swaped the off-tank.

      After all i never will understand the change number , if they buff it they non stop until its destroy the game and if it nerf they non stop until no one use them, why 50% dmg debuff, why not directly delete the heals q , every nerf is to delete then in game , no chance to play weapons, like thomhammer , mace after nerf in cds, u could be the best player in the game but those weapon whas no chance to be played, then with the bow, reg bow are no one played since the nerf, hammer in general are weak in cristal with the cc retuction .



      where is the idea of i wear what i want and i am what i wear idea. it now you wear what devteam want or you will be weak as fuck.Just tell me what u want see in meta i go play it for you u dont want do all those enforce to do patch balance

      The post was edited 1 time, last by YeSer ().

    • cursed tar should also reduce healing received by 10% since demonic staff e cant reduce healing anymore

      also pyroblast on 1h fire cant be canceled so its impossible to fake cast it which is pretty important on any spell with a long cast time

      and the new ignite spell on fire staves seems really strong it feels like a light cbow e on a 8 sec cd. should be a 10 or maybe 12 sec cd.