Feedback regarding the planned changes towards the game's economy, labourers & crafting

    • Feedback regarding the planned changes towards the game's economy, labourers & crafting

      Dear employees of Sandbox Interactive,
      I would like to utter some feedback concerning the following planned changes towards the game:

      • Journal changes: After an economic analysis of resource returns and crafting efficiencies across the game, it was found that the large amounts of resource generation produced by laborers was negatively impacting the profitability of both gathering and crafting. As a result, a reduction in the overall output of laborers was necessary. The amount of Fame required to fill crafting journals has consequently been tripled, though this change has been somewhat counterbalanced by an increase to the amount of Fame received when crafting enchanted items.
        • Tripled the Fame required to fill Crafting Laborer Journals

      • Increased gathering/refining/crafting Fame for enchanted raw resources:
        • Enchantment level 2 raw resources: +33.33% Fame
        • Enchantment level 3 raw resources: +100% Fame

      • Hideout Changes:
      • Rebalanced progression of specialization crafting bonus in Hideouts based on zone quality:
      • Quality 1: 0.18 → 0.15
      • Quality 2: 0.21 → 0.20
      • Quality 3: 0.24 → 0.25
      • Quality 4: 0.27 → 0.30
      • Quality 5: 0.30 → 0.35
      • Quality 6: 0.33 → 0.40



      Here is a small introduction of myself. I started the game about two years a go. Throughout my journey I did enjoy various aspects of the game. This includes small-scale PvP & PvE content as well as economic parts such as crafting and labourers. Since I started the game I noticed that the economy has changed a lot. In the past a lot of lower tier items were a lot more valueable. Throughout the time the value of a lot of items did go down because there was a constant oversupply. One of the most important changes regarding the past was the change towards F2P. As following the number of Crafting Alts & Island Alts for building guild halls did increase massively. There was no regulation for this part of the game apart from one person's time. I think you did overlook this issue back then.

      Due to the fact that it is possible to "outsource" a part of the work of labourers towards other players it was possible to create massive labourer networks. I did build 40 T8 Guild Halls and 20 T6 Guild Halls around 1,5 months a go myself. Today we are looking at the bad shape of the economy and I do support your decision to change something. Nevertheless I do not like your current approach at all.

      A lot of players did create a balance between their crafting & their labourers, which is determined by their available time & number of crafters. Currently the journal production is always extremely close to the possible limit. One of my main issues with your policy here is that you are making a sudden change without offering alternatives for blocks. By increasing the required Fame Value by three times you are forcing the following changes:
      • Player's will need to craft three times more items with less or more expensive resources while selling those crafted items for a lot higher prices to players or the BM for beeing able to maintain our current island setups. Sadly the BM does not buy a lot of enchanted items at all. Especially .2 or .3 items which we would need to craft for filling journals more efficiently.
      • Player's will most likely be forced to create a TON more of crafting alts in order to be able to fill their books. Just for my T8 Halls I ll already need 40-60 alt characters. When a lot of players do take this approach you are most likely just relocateing the issues of the economy towards an other place.
      • Player's will be forced to tear down their islands or to let them moulder away without any use. T7 and T8 Stone Blocks do not have ANY use i the game when this change happens. I do not count plots, hammers and labourers. The number of blocks that gets used by these is far too small. Further nobody will be interested in building guild halls / houses when there are only enough journals for one third of the current owners.
      • Stone Refiners, Stone Gatherers and Stone itself completely use their right to exist.
      • Player's will quit the game because they will feel backstabbed by SBI again. The transmutation update was already extremely painful for most bulk crafters because they lost billions.
      • Player's will be forced to to large guilds for getting access to the new high quality zones


      I would like to ask whether it would be possible to improve the situation of labourer owners by:
      • giving stone blocks a new use (new building types, new craftable items) - so we don't loose billions which we worked for during the last years
      • buffing gathering & mercenary labourers (making it easier to fill gathering journals, giving mercenary journals a further use - apart from silver they could drop artefact items at rates)
      • thinking about other possible changes. I am not sure whether this are valid ideas but I do think that there are most likely better ideas than your current ones, which can be discoverd by you or the community.
        • There have been a few things other players mentioned. There were more ideas under the deleted feedback post:
        • Keeping the fame values of the current journals and lowering the number of resources we do receive. (Like this we are not forced to create massive amounts of alts / craft three times more items while the overall number of resources gets reduced as well!) So we can make sure that our halls are having work daily. The profit margins of journals would adjust.
        • Removing the outsourcing part of labourers, so that only the owner of the halls can use them. This would make sure that you don't harm a lot of small investors. This will also limit the number of halls somebody can manage.
        • Changing the work times of labourers while keeping the old journal fame values. For example by changing the time to 44 hours instead of 22 hours. This will make sure that less resources are getting produced as well.
        • Offering a free island move with the next update so that we can at least move our islands to other cities.
      I am really sure that somebody here does have more & better ideas, which can be shared here.

      Kind regards
      FirstTimeKarma

      The post was edited 2 times, last by FirstTimeKarma ().

    • I do think SBI refuses to talk about this massive nerf. The community deserve a whole thread from the dev in regards of this issue since it would affect the whole economy. I and many others was talking about it in the previous deleted thread but they refuse to say anything else. Im just here to repost what I posted on the previous thread.


      1) Boosting the fame on crafting enchanted items will NEVER counter balance this massive nerf that will be done on the journal. 3x is just way to much.

      2) Majority of the crafting are done with flat items and NOT enchanted.

      3) Crafting enchanted items will be so much harder to sell on the black market since it does not massively buy 999+ of enchanted items. This will be an issue if you are a person that craft in bulk since you need to sell it under 3 days.
      If you're about to tell me that you can just sell a stack of enchanted items in different city, you must not be one of those people that crafts in bulk.

      4) Item loot from chest will be lowered since there will be a decrease on purchased items on the black market.

      5) Items will now massively increase in price, making it less affordable for people = less people buying higher tiers since the only thing that was making it affordable was laborers. I thought the purpose of the transmute balance was to make everything affordable?

      6) Stone gathering will now be the most useless gathering profession in game and the furniture crafting will also now be useless.

      7) Stone refining will also be the most useless refining in game, why stone refine when you cant sell it? People will stop building houses & halls since there would be no point of doing so.
      There has already been a massive price drop for both rocks and stone, people has been panic selling and demolishing all of their houses & halls before it becomes completely useless. Especially at the higher tiers such as T7 and T8, It was already expensive enough to try and spec up stone refining and now what?

      If you're about to say that hideouts and the new plots in the rest area will cover all excess blocks, you need to get your head straight because it will never cover that, 95% of stone goes into houses/ halls.

      Whoever did your analysis must be smoking some good crack since he/she did not consider everything that will be affected by this. This is doing more harm than good
    • It is an interesting assessment by SBI to say - "large amounts of resource generation produced by laborers was negatively impacting the profitability of both gathering and crafting"

      The issue with the game's economy isn't crafting journals but it is probably the easiest for SBI to adjust due to the changes to the game over the last couple of years.

      - The game's population has grown drastically over the past few years
      - Crafting and refining bonuses were added to cities
      - Additional zones were added to the Royals
      - Additional zones were added to the Black Zones
      - Avalonia Roads were added to the game

      With the increase of available resources due to additional zones, an increase in the number of people gathering/refining, and factor in refining bonuses it has all significantly increased the amount of resources in the game and the prices for resources has dropped significantly. It is easier to craft now and more people are doing it. So, what happens? The market is flooded with cheap crafting journals as all the crafters start undercutting each other as they try to dump filled journals they can't use. What is the outcome? Players are opportunists and realized how easy it is to buy those cheap journals, turn them in each day, and make STUPID EASY money off selling refined mats with little effort.

      Let's be honest here. Crafting journals aren't the problem. The real problem was how stupid easy it was for people to buy level 1 guild islands, setup up guilds halls, and how stupid easy and quick it is to collect 15 journals in a guild hall. ~10 minutes, 2-3+m profit, repeat.



      If crafting journals are really the issue, it would be nice if SBI would explain why increasing the fame needed to fill a crafting journal is a better fix than just simply reducing the amount of resources a fill crafting journal returns?
    • Aurin wrote:

      It is an interesting assessment by SBI to say - "large amounts of resource generation produced by laborers was negatively impacting the profitability of both gathering and crafting"

      The issue with the game's economy isn't crafting journals but it is probably the easiest for SBI to adjust due to the changes to the game over the last couple of years.

      - The game's population has grown drastically over the past few years
      - Crafting and refining bonuses were added to cities
      - Additional zones were added to the Royals
      - Additional zones were added to the Black Zones
      - Avalonia Roads were added to the game

      With the increase of available resources due to additional zones, an increase in the number of people gathering/refining, and factor in refining bonuses it has all significantly increased the amount of resources in the game and the prices for resources has dropped significantly. It is easier to craft now and more people are doing it. So, what happens? The market is flooded with cheap crafting journals as all the crafters start undercutting each other as they try to dump filled journals they can't use. What is the outcome? Players are opportunists and realized how easy it is to buy those cheap journals, turn them in each day, and make STUPID EASY money off selling refined mats with little effort.

      Let's be honest here. Crafting journals aren't the problem. The real problem was how stupid easy it was for people to buy level 1 guild islands, setup up guilds halls, and how stupid easy and quick it is to collect 15 journals in a guild hall. ~10 minutes, 2-3+m profit, repeat.



      If crafting journals are really the issue, it would be nice if SBI would explain why increasing the fame needed to fill a crafting journal is a better fix than just simply reducing the amount of resources a fill crafting journal returns?
      Do you not know how much it cost to build a T8 guild hall? As well as how much you get 'profit' per guild hall? Before the blocks prices dropped significantly due to panic, it was cost an average 70m silver to build a T8 guild hall and you only get about 300-350k in profit, after journal refeeding cost on a daily. Want to do the math on how many days/months to get your investment back? It is true that its 'EASY' but the the fact that you have to put 1b silver to even make 3m a day, it is a massive investment. Do you think its 'easy' to put 1-2b silver into guild halls and that takes 6+ months to get it back? You've clearly never done it so please, stop bitching about how 'easy' it is because its not 'easy' to get 1b silver to invest when you can put it somewhere else with better return ratio than laborers.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Super11 ().

    • Journal changes: After an economic analysis of resource returns and crafting efficiencies across the game, it was found that the large amounts of resource generation produced by laborers was negatively impacting the profitability of both gathering and crafting.

      After alot of thought and playing around my spreadsheets my conclusion is simple. Good look SBI. You might solve the problem of massive labor empires but at what cost, is crafting and gathering profits really be going up because of this. I really hope for a massive gear cost increase to make this wheel spin in right direction.

      And tbh this change is massive and will effect so many things in Albion, and I would love to hear a resume of your reasoning to why you choose this solution to the problem you wanna solve. Make a video!
    • Super11 wrote:

      Do you not know how much it cost to build a T8 guild hall? As well as how much you get 'profit' per guild hall? Before the blocks prices dropped significantly due to panic, it was cost an average 70m silver to build a T8 guild hall and you only get about 300-350k in profit, after journal refeeding cost on a daily. Want to do the math on how many days/months to get your investment back? It is true that its 'EASY' but the the fact that you have to put 1b silver to even make 3m a day, it is a massive investment. Do you think its 'easy' to put 1-2b silver into guild halls and that takes 6+ months to get it back? You've clearly never done it so please, stop bitching about how 'easy' it is because its not 'easy' to get 1b silver to invest when you can put it somewhere else with better return ratio than laborers.
      Considering I've probably made at least ~10B off my laborers, yes I know how it works. You know some of us have been doing this for years, right? Back when transports mammoths still cost about 5M so setting up islands was pretty cheap and easy. 70M for a T8 guild hall, geez you must be new to this process.
    • Aurin wrote:

      It is an interesting assessment by SBI to say - "large amounts of resource generation produced by laborers was negatively impacting the profitability of both gathering and crafting"

      The issue with the game's economy isn't crafting journals but it is probably the easiest for SBI to adjust due to the changes to the game over the last couple of years.

      - The game's population has grown drastically over the past few years
      - Crafting and refining bonuses were added to cities
      - Additional zones were added to the Royals
      - Additional zones were added to the Black Zones
      - Avalonia Roads were added to the game

      With the increase of available resources due to additional zones, an increase in the number of people gathering/refining, and factor in refining bonuses it has all significantly increased the amount of resources in the game and the prices for resources has dropped significantly. It is easier to craft now and more people are doing it. So, what happens? The market is flooded with cheap crafting journals as all the crafters start undercutting each other as they try to dump filled journals they can't use. What is the outcome? Players are opportunists and realized how easy it is to buy those cheap journals, turn them in each day, and make STUPID EASY money off selling refined mats with little effort.

      Let's be honest here. Crafting journals aren't the problem. The real problem was how stupid easy it was for people to buy level 1 guild islands, setup up guilds halls, and how stupid easy and quick it is to collect 15 journals in a guild hall. ~10 minutes, 2-3+m profit, repeat.



      If crafting journals are really the issue, it would be nice if SBI would explain why increasing the fame needed to fill a crafting journal is a better fix than just simply reducing the amount of resources a fill crafting journal returns?
      15 journals 1x T8 guild hall, 10mins work 2-3 mil. profit. What a fuckload of gibberish that is. You sound like Lewpac explaining laborers. Used to getting everything handed to them. But for 99% of albion players filled journals dont appear out of thin air.



      Aurin wrote:

      Super11 wrote:

      Do you not know how much it cost to build a T8 guild hall? As well as how much you get 'profit' per guild hall? Before the blocks prices dropped significantly due to panic, it was cost an average 70m silver to build a T8 guild hall and you only get about 300-350k in profit, after journal refeeding cost on a daily. Want to do the math on how many days/months to get your investment back? It is true that its 'EASY' but the the fact that you have to put 1b silver to even make 3m a day, it is a massive investment. Do you think its 'easy' to put 1-2b silver into guild halls and that takes 6+ months to get it back? You've clearly never done it so please, stop bitching about how 'easy' it is because its not 'easy' to get 1b silver to invest when you can put it somewhere else with better return ratio than laborers.
      Considering I've probably made at least ~10B off my laborers, yes I know how it works. You know some of us have been doing this for years, right? Back when transports mammoths still cost about 5M so setting up islands was pretty cheap and easy. 70M for a T8 guild hall, geez you must be new to this process.

      70M for a T8 guild hall, geez you must be new to this process. - What an idiotic elitist response. Get the fuck down from wherever ur sitting.
    • I mean in a way he is rigth , some old players have been doing this for Years and with massive results in terms of silver returns and mats.I think laborers needead a change this change wont make the system better it is a bandage , the mechanic is the same it just received a heavy nerf .

      The only way out SBI has now is reworking the whole concept of laborers , maybe like BDO has them perhaps , promoting ACTIVE players not laborer empire alts galore.
    • I think the most important thing is the use of silver for what, to where.
      So where do old users spend their silver more efficiently?
      In the future, HCE will also be nerfed and the price of item masterpieces will all go down.
      Just like everyone has a job, the things they want to do are different.
      It's not fun at all if you force it into pvp or open world.
      And where will we spend our money in the future? does it make sense to invest only in making secondary characters
      and making or buying skins? (Does it make sense to pay 900 mils and 2 bills for one skin?)

      The executives are just trying to cut back on how they earn silver.
      And it changes everything so quickly.
      It is important to adapt to a changing society, but I think the management really thinks
      about the effort and time of users. I'm genuinely curious if you're doing an update.

      In my opinion, using a worker with a guild hall or an island
      It's not as big of a profit as you might think.
      We have to build an island with a lot of money, and We have to put journals in it every day.
      We have to craft items, and We have to take a lot of risk and take it to the black market.
      And We have to wait for them to sell again. And people who want to sell quickly have to pay
      high fees over and over again. As a result, a lot of time, money and effort are required.

      Crafters make items for others and get the corresponding silver. And people who like the open world
      such as HCE or PVP use it, and when they run out of silver, they use small contents to make a living such as payment or farming
      and they also start hiring workers when they have money.
      I think it's a very natural social structure.

      Above all, in Albion, which is attractive because it is very similar to reality.
      Ignore all the process and if these updates happen all at once
      I don't think I can trust Albion's worldview anymore.

      I am not writing this to protect my islands and guild halls. If it's updated like that, I'll just stop playing the game.
      I'm not serious at all. As a result, I believe that I will spend more and more valuable time in the real world.

      But I'm annoyed that the management takes users' time and money so lightly.
      I remember paying more than about 6000~8000 dollars with a credit card to build my islands and guild halls.
      (2021, this year my all payments is about 12000 dollars)
      After all, if this update is made, I will end up losing a lot of cash and my times again.
      All my payment details will be known to the management if they check my account.

      they should know I hope that the admins will update like this easily
      and if I knew about that before, I would never have paid those amounts and management shouldn't sell Gold either.

      Hearing this update, I was reminded of the old Relic update incident. And many of the friends I played with left Albion.
      The reason is simple. They bought gold with a credit card from the executives and used it to buy expensive HCE items.
      However, due to the sudden update, everyone's cash and effort returned to zero,
      and some my poor friends who wanted to purchase an item at a low price were automatically bought with a buy order several times
      more expensive than the market price when they logged in after the update.
      At least, admins should have reset the buy order at that time.

      Not everyone is an expert or a fan of the game.
      There are people who come and enjoy a little after a tiring daily life.
      Not everyone check the test server, read the notice carefully.

      Am I the only one who thinks this is the same relic situation?

      In the end, who loses money and who makes money?

      It is said to be an update for users, but it is probably not for users,
      Because we didn't have the opportunity to consult and come up with any countermeasures.


      Finally, let's talk, I don't put journals to my islands or guild halls well these days.
      And I am enjoying PVP with my guild friends when I have times.

      Some just want to make money first, and some want to enjoy PVP first. I don't think it makes sense to deny everything unconditionally.
      You have to give us a chance to choose for us.

      After all, everyone already knows that there is nothing to do except PVP.

      I still don't know. Am I wrong?

      The post was edited 3 times, last by RuiJay ().

    • So, I know people are mad about the 3x fame thing, but I don't think SBI is going to budge even a little. What I think SBI can do though is, since we now need 3x the crafting to fill the same amount of journals. Maybe they can dial back the crafting timers some? Doesn't have to be the same ratio. Just a little lessening of the burden of all those hard working crafters out there!

      (not to be eaten!)
    • FirstTimeKarma wrote:

      Player's will need to craft three times more items with less or more expensive resources while selling those crafted items for a lot higher prices to players or the BM for beeing able to maintain our current island setups. Sadly the BM does not buy a lot of enchanted items at all. Especially .2 or .3 items which we would need to craft for filling journals more efficiently.
      Hi. I personally don't see this as a problem. It's not where the solution needs to be, but it's a start.

      FirstTimeKarma wrote:

      Player's will most likely be forced to create a TON more of crafting alts in order to be able to fill their books. Just for my T8 Halls I ll already need 40-60 alt characters. When a lot of players do take this approach you are most likely just relocateing the issues of the economy towards an other place.
      You don't see this as a problem? This is a HUGE problem!
      I personally think, that only the island OWNER should be able to use the island's plots for growing crops, farming animals, and using the laborers.
      I would like to see them implement a system where the island owner had to do the daily quest, or the island/laborers/farms/etc stopped working the following day.
      This would help eliminate the alt problem we currently have, while still allowing some people to maintain a semblance of an empire, assuming they have
      enough time to dedicate. Un-que able, and not easily gotten around. For guilds, I think use of the laborers should require 5 + (number of guild members / 5), daily quests.

      I'd love to see one island and one guild island limited by not only IP, but credit card number/physical address. I think this would go a long way towards solving some of those
      issues.

      FirstTimeKarma wrote:

      I would like to ask whether it would be possible to improve the situation of labourer owners by:


      giving stone blocks a new use (new building types, new craftable items) - so we don't loose billions which we worked for during the last years

      buffing gathering & mercenary labourers (making it easier to fill gathering journals, giving mercenary journals a further use - apart from silver they could drop artefact items at rates)

      thinking about other possible changes. I am not sure whether this are valid ideas but I do think that there are most likely better ideas than your current ones, which can be discoverd by you or the community.


      There have been a few things other players mentioned. There were more ideas under the deleted feedback post:

      Keeping the fame values of the current journals and lowering the number of resources we do receive. (Like this we are not forced to create massive amounts of alts / craft three times more items while the overall number of resources gets reduced as well!) So we can make sure that our halls are having work daily. The profit margins of journals would adjust.

      Removing the outsourcing part of labourers, so that only the owner of the halls can use them. This would make sure that you don't harm a lot of small investors. This will also limit the number of halls somebody can manage.

      Changing the work times of labourers while keeping the old journal fame values. For example by changing the time to 44 hours instead of 22 hours. This will make sure that less resources are getting produced as well.

      Offering a free island move with the next update so that we can at least move our islands to other cities.
      It seems to me, that you agree with me somewhat on the number of laborers and alts being ridiculous. That's good!

      I both agree and disagree with the stone issue. Stone seems to be overpriced currently, so a nerf to it could be beneficial. Time would
      tell on this one.

      How much would you want to lower the amount of resources received? T8 is already a pita, especially since you can't max the extra gain (with niceties), so you get 0-5 resources. Are you suggesting to
      reduce this to 1-2? per laborer? per day?! UGH! please no!

      I also both like and dislike your suggestion of increasing the time for your laborers to return. On one hand, it does lessen the daily workload. However, now you have to keep track of which islands
      were done on which day(s), which adds a level of complication to it, that I think is un-necessary. Once a day is a nice spot for it it to be at.


      If you want to reduce the supply of goods, just take x% of the black market items and trash them upon their completed sale to the black market. BAM! instant supply reduction. If you want a lore reason
      They got stolen/shipwrecked/eaten/un-raveled/dented/lost on the way to their destination! Man, those acolytes are gonna be unhappy!

      note: by daily quest I am referring to the daily bonus you can get to earn monthly premium rewards.