[Update] HCE Ninja Changes and Some Thoughts

    • [Update] HCE Ninja Changes and Some Thoughts

      *Before I post this, some of you (my HCE fellows) already logged onto test servers and tested this out, and probably are selling your HCE gear at the moment. I apologize that this post will probably make the selling harder.

      [Update] Official response received (page 4).

      In short summary,
      • HCE mobs have roughly +10% health buff
      • HCE bosses have roughly +50% health buff
      • Various damage buff (not confirmed)
      • HCE silver drops and fame are nerfed by flat 500 or 10% around lvl.14, and then 15% at lvl.18.


      What these changes lead to is that even the best HCE players I know are leaving HCE. In that regard, a job well done.

      What I am asking is that if you plan to actually implement these changes, please just include it in the patch notes with the actual details. There is no point hiding or covering it.

      My thoughts on those changes:
      • I understand the motives but question the means. You will push some players into the outlands. Hopefully, you won't lose more players than that for the whole game.
      • The health buff and damage buff are demanding to the point where the best HCE team I know can't even one wave clear with the speed-run set-up. Tune it down a little bit if you intend to keep HCE at all, please.
      • With the silver nerf in HCE, it kills my motivation to play with random players, if not entirely. Here is what my trustworthy tank said: "If I died twice, I lose silver."
        • Dying twice is not uncommon at all. Even the best player can have a bad day, not to mention that you rely on your teammate to stay alive in HCE.
        • Also, Albion's server connection isn't the greatest I have seen. Just yesterday, I saw one of the top HCE players die to lightning twice because he got disconnected.
      • I felt the general message is that devs want to push people to the outlands. Not encourage, but push. Maybe the word "herd" is more accurate.
      • I thought a "Fantasy Sandbox MMORPG" means players get to "choose" how to play or what to play.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by G0000000: Updating to be more exact and accurate about the changes; ().

    • The team I bring into test server is speedrun team, they do top dps better than 99% HCE players, we are very hardly kill mobs in 2 rotations with 840/840 specs + 8.3mp weapons. Image random team 700/700, how would they do map? We were thinking about what would we lvl up to lvl120 after new patch. And finally we realise the HCE would be totally 'out of Albion'. In another hand, it maybe good for ppl, we are not going out playing pvp is because everytime we going out we have to run about 1h map, and finally can meet some ppl, and after u kill ppl, u wont have good reward, it waste us too much time. Now SBI solved these problems, and we will see many 700/700+8.3 gear ppl out in BZ, XDDD.
    • Albion Online is the first truly cross-platform MMO experience, available for Windows, Mac, Linux and Android, with all players on one master server in one massive, sprawling world. You choose how your adventure evolves; at home or on the go!

      Its funny when the you guys advertised with all the freedom you can get from Albion . On the other hand, developers are trying to " force" pve/hce players go to black zone more often.
      Why don't you guys just remove yellow and blue zone. Because some of the markets men never go out to black zone at all but still they could make lots silver ( its just not showing on the board but those guys are the one who control the economy with all the safety around them are making way more silver than HCE players who actually playing the game.)
    • as much as i hate current state of hce, i do think that adding extra 50% health/damage to bosses/mobs isn't needed. fame seems to be almost on par in bz, reward will be and yes risk is present. silver drop nerf is enough to make people transition from hce to bz OW content without fully depriving people from options.

      Heck you can already argue that HCe players that were recruited in guilds just so they could generate insane amount of keys for guild challenge might not cut it anymore since they won't generate any might & favor (which is a good thing). this will provide extra incentive for people to go to bz.

      do not buff mobs/bosses in hce by more than 10-20% of their current place for what would be lvl 18 since it will make it too hard for a lot of people for no valid reasons.

      Before doing that "buff" to those mobs, might want to revisit bz outposts/castles that can be solo'ed in flat 8 with some specs in some specific cheese gear (do not nerf the cheese gear, make the mobs/bosses zerg like old hellgate 5v5 boss was doing when less than x amount of people was hitting it).

      best thing you could do to help hce players to have a better shot a better rewards might be to introduce hce portals in OW in bz. high risk but higher rewards and that could make them eligible to might/favor system too. few would risk it but those who would could get amazing benefits for taking a risk.



      in recap, don't over buff hce bosses/mobs, 50% more health/dmg is too big, even 20% might be a big stretch. 8.3mp should not be required for blue zone content, 8.3 outstanding with specs yes but not really higher than that for it to make sense.

      Keep the silver nerf, it's needed to give a tiny edge to OW and other "lethal" content and the nerf isn't that big from what i understand so it is enough to not kill the possible income from hce.

      and obviously include those changes in patchnotes. can't skip that, they are important and heavily impact crafters econ and pve players econ even outside of hce.
    • @G0000000 @SuperHard88 @JasonZ Please guys stay constructive. Saying things like "I know people that are gonna quit" is not helping as this will always happen with an update and this is fine. You can't please everyone.


      >With the silver nerf in HCE, it kills my motivation to play with random players, if not entirely. Here is what my trustworthy tank said: "If I died twice, I lose silver."

      For what it's worth, when you are in level <15 this is already the case and I doubt you will get a lot of new tanks that won't die when learning. And since you probably need 50 to 100 maps at least to begin to master tanking, 8.3 gear, MP on weapon & off-hand + swaps + specs, it means the entrance fee for a tank is quite high.

      • Obviously +1 for including those changes in the patch notes
      • I personally think the HCEs have already been nerfed more than enough and the price of the maps has gone so high it is rarely worth it: even just one death can offset the profits of a <lvl15 map and another death any profit (without auto-respec) of the map itself. For >lvl15 the margin is already not super high. You also need to account that the final chest is rarely worth much (definitely not enough to cover a lost token). So in the end you barely have enough to cover any death + the price of the map currently.
      • There is already quite a few maps that are very hard time-wise. Raven's claws, Fungicide and to some degree Stone Wars & 3 sisters. A buff of mob heath, provided this is not offset by the bonus of damage received from the elite level (from the tests it doesn't look to be the case) will simply make them nonviable for 90% of the HCE community: you will need absolutely perfect mega pulls, no death and a god tier dps without a single error. This is quite a lot to ask and frankly if this happens I think the already quite toxic elitist HCE community will just die.
      I think the current changes to the open world are great and will attract a lot of people. In my opinion there is no need to nerf HCEs to try to attract more people or to buff mobs to account for the elite level.

      If there is any changes to do to HCEs I would suggest adding/reworking the maps to make them more interesting and feasible without skips or even in difficulty. For example at the moment Raven's Claw & Fungicide are almost (to the 99% of folks) un-doable without skips and on contrary Fishy Business or Fistful of Silver are quite large time-wise.
    • DeltaFirst wrote:

      @G0000000 @SuperHard88 @JasonZ Please guys stay constructive. Saying things like "I know people that are gonna quit" is not helping as this will always happen with an update and this is fine. You can't please everyone.


      >With the silver nerf in HCE, it kills my motivation to play with random players, if not entirely. Here is what my trustworthy tank said: "If I died twice, I lose silver."

      For what it's worth, when you are in level <15 this is already the case and I doubt you will get a lot of new tanks that won't die when learning. And since you probably need 50 to 100 maps at least to begin to master tanking, 8.3 gear, MP on weapon & off-hand + swaps + specs, it means the entrance fee for a tank is quite high.

      • Obviously +1 for including those changes in the patch notes
      • I personally think the HCEs have already been nerfed more than enough and the price of the maps has gone so high it is rarely worth it: even just one death can offset the profits of a <lvl15 map and another death any profit (without auto-respec) of the map itself. For >lvl15 the margin is already not super high. You also need to account that the final chest is rarely worth much (definitely not enough to cover a lost token). So in the end you barely have enough to cover any death + the price of the map currently.
      • There is already quite a few maps that are very hard time-wise. Raven's claws, Fungicide and to some degree Stone Wars & 3 sisters. A buff of mob heath, provided this is not offset by the bonus of damage received from the elite level (from the tests it doesn't look to be the case) will simply make them nonviable for 90% of the HCE community: you will need absolutely perfect mega pulls, no death and a god tier dps without a single error. This is quite a lot to ask and frankly if this happens I think the already quite toxic elitist HCE community will just die.
      I think the current changes to the open world are great and will attract a lot of people. In my opinion there is no need to nerf HCEs to try to attract more people or to buff mobs to account for the elite level.

      If there is any changes to do to HCEs I would suggest adding/reworking the maps to make them more interesting and feasible without skips or even in difficulty. For example at the moment Raven's Claw & Fungicide are almost (to the 99% of folks) un-doable without skips and on contrary Fishy Business or Fistful of Silver are quite large time-wise.
      While I am trying to look to the bright side, please understand it is very frustrating to deal with the fact that:
      • Robinhoodrs from SBI surveyed HCE sentiment in the arch discord. I didn't see a survey in HCE discord. That is not how one should do polls or collect feedbacks if one wants views from all sides. I consider myself a unicorn paying taxes and arch territory penalties (a total of -12%) while doing HCE. Most HCE players I observed are either in top ZvZ guilds, no guilds, or HCE-oriented guilds.
      • Ninja changes are made to HCE without any mentions in the patch notes, and those changes, especially the health and damage buff, are nothing close to being reasonable.
      • Subsequently, there are no dedicated threads under Land Awakened Feedback section to share feedbacks.
      It seems to me that the devs fail to communicate with the major stakeholders at all. As for quitting, I admit that I want to paint a grim picture. However, if you take a look at public market discords, there are at least 30 posts of people selling their entire HCE gear set. So, it is not entirely a "doomsday" speech.

      I should be clearer though:
      HCE will be niche, if not dead content if those changes are pushed to the live server without changes.

      To devs:
      What I think HCE really needs is reworks, not plain value toggling buffs and nerfs. We have around 8 days left, please reconsider for the time being. If you want to change it still, collect feedback from people who actually do both HCE and black zone content and make changes based on those feedbacks. Keep the changes and the communication transparent.
    • For my opinions, the ninja changes to HCE is huge.
      Imagine with a hard boss like Eternal Battle's boss at level 18, 150k more hp compare to present live server. HCE is a place devs introduce is hardcore pve,ok we understand, but we actually play the game,spending time just to earn silver, fame for buying stuff for other contents. Lower silver,fame, loot % bonus without saying anything, higher hp, higher armor of mobs, boss without saying anything. All of this not included in patch note, not a single word. As a player, i choose albion because of the free choice of open world game, where you can choose how you gonna be, but after all i feel like im being forced to follow what the devs want me to do.
      My team i brought to test server is just a normal team , we tested with 840 spec in light crossbow with druid robe. Isnt it a joke if 840 specs with full 6 stacks of druid robe deal 200dmg in 1 Q compare to 700 specs with full 6 stacks in live server right now? what is the point of upgrading elite levels for specs when u deal less dmg and the cost is huge: 350mils fame credit and roughly 100mils silver. No point investing in things that already cost alot for repairing and entry fee and receive way more less profit.
      Also, no survey taken from HCE community, only in arch alliance discord. Arch has a totally safe redtree, why you guys didnt do anything to make it more dangerous instead of forcing pve player to come for pvp contents ? blackzone redtree or bluezone redtree ? You guys created HCE, all it received is nerfs after nerfs, not a single buff. Now ninja nerfs just to force people to follow your changes, what is the point of advertising " free choice open-world''?

      We have around 8days, please consider it carefully before bringing it to live server. those changes gonna kill the content . Silver nerf around 10% is huge, hp and armor buff not necessary, 150k hp more for a boss with armor buffed,2 god dps without a single error might be able to do it in time for sure. Also please collect the information and feedbacks from people that really play the content, not the player in a bluezone homeland like arch in their redtree

      Proof for those ninja nerfs
      video of EB level 18 , from WhithBlade , recorded 6/9/2021 ->
      Images that show the hp buff compare to hp in the video -> imgur.com/a/rktY5MH
    • G0000000 wrote:

      DeltaFirst wrote:

      @G0000000 @SuperHard88 @JasonZ Please guys stay constructive. Saying things like "I know people that are gonna quit" is not helping as this will always happen with an update and this is fine. You can't please everyone.


      >With the silver nerf in HCE, it kills my motivation to play with random players, if not entirely. Here is what my trustworthy tank said: "If I died twice, I lose silver."

      For what it's worth, when you are in level <15 this is already the case and I doubt you will get a lot of new tanks that won't die when learning. And since you probably need 50 to 100 maps at least to begin to master tanking, 8.3 gear, MP on weapon & off-hand + swaps + specs, it means the entrance fee for a tank is quite high.

      • Obviously +1 for including those changes in the patch notes
      • I personally think the HCEs have already been nerfed more than enough and the price of the maps has gone so high it is rarely worth it: even just one death can offset the profits of a <lvl15 map and another death any profit (without auto-respec) of the map itself. For >lvl15 the margin is already not super high. You also need to account that the final chest is rarely worth much (definitely not enough to cover a lost token). So in the end you barely have enough to cover any death + the price of the map currently.
      • There is already quite a few maps that are very hard time-wise. Raven's claws, Fungicide and to some degree Stone Wars & 3 sisters. A buff of mob heath, provided this is not offset by the bonus of damage received from the elite level (from the tests it doesn't look to be the case) will simply make them nonviable for 90% of the HCE community: you will need absolutely perfect mega pulls, no death and a god tier dps without a single error. This is quite a lot to ask and frankly if this happens I think the already quite toxic elitist HCE community will just die.
      I think the current changes to the open world are great and will attract a lot of people. In my opinion there is no need to nerf HCEs to try to attract more people or to buff mobs to account for the elite level.

      If there is any changes to do to HCEs I would suggest adding/reworking the maps to make them more interesting and feasible without skips or even in difficulty. For example at the moment Raven's Claw & Fungicide are almost (to the 99% of folks) un-doable without skips and on contrary Fishy Business or Fistful of Silver are quite large time-wise.
      While I am trying to look to the bright side, please understand it is very frustrating to deal with the fact that:
      • Robinhoodrs from SBI surveyed HCE sentiment in the arch discord. I didn't see a survey in HCE discord. That is not how one should do polls or collect feedbacks if one wants views from all sides. I consider myself a unicorn paying taxes and arch territory penalties (a total of -12%) while doing HCE. Most HCE players I observed are either in top ZvZ guilds, no guilds, or HCE-oriented guilds.

      Just to address this statement, this was for my personal feedback and getting to understand why players partake in HCE's and what would drive them maybe to switch into Open World activities instead, non of the feedback has been passed onto SBI in anyway on HCE's and this change hasn't even been addressed in the Patch Notes yet.

      I didn't think SBI would be looking to change HCE's with this patch so I didn't pass the feedback on and was planning to use my findings at a later date, if anything, the feedback I got was that players use HCE's mainly because they have little time to play (between 1-2 hours a day) and finding a group and entering into a HCE takes way less time (both finding a group and getting into the map) compared to Outlands fame farming and my suggestion would've been to not nerf the fame or silver reward but to instead limit the rewards daily, much like the Arena, that way players can still enjoy the content daily, but also once they hit the cap and are looking to carry on fame farming they can go out and enjoy the other content in the game and not instanced safe PvE all the time.

      But yes, that's my two cents on the subject, like I said multiple times during our talk on ARCH discord, the feedback was for personal use only.
      Tired of LAGGING in-game? Try ExitLag;
      Use my link & code 'ROBIN' for 20% off any plan!
      exitl.ag/robin
      youtube.com/c/robinhoodrs
    • Robinhoodrs wrote:

      G0000000 wrote:

      DeltaFirst wrote:

      @G0000000 @SuperHard88 @JasonZ Please guys stay constructive. Saying things like "I know people that are gonna quit" is not helping as this will always happen with an update and this is fine. You can't please everyone.


      >With the silver nerf in HCE, it kills my motivation to play with random players, if not entirely. Here is what my trustworthy tank said: "If I died twice, I lose silver."

      For what it's worth, when you are in level <15 this is already the case and I doubt you will get a lot of new tanks that won't die when learning. And since you probably need 50 to 100 maps at least to begin to master tanking, 8.3 gear, MP on weapon & off-hand + swaps + specs, it means the entrance fee for a tank is quite high.

      • Obviously +1 for including those changes in the patch notes
      • I personally think the HCEs have already been nerfed more than enough and the price of the maps has gone so high it is rarely worth it: even just one death can offset the profits of a <lvl15 map and another death any profit (without auto-respec) of the map itself. For >lvl15 the margin is already not super high. You also need to account that the final chest is rarely worth much (definitely not enough to cover a lost token). So in the end you barely have enough to cover any death + the price of the map currently.
      • There is already quite a few maps that are very hard time-wise. Raven's claws, Fungicide and to some degree Stone Wars & 3 sisters. A buff of mob heath, provided this is not offset by the bonus of damage received from the elite level (from the tests it doesn't look to be the case) will simply make them nonviable for 90% of the HCE community: you will need absolutely perfect mega pulls, no death and a god tier dps without a single error. This is quite a lot to ask and frankly if this happens I think the already quite toxic elitist HCE community will just die.
      I think the current changes to the open world are great and will attract a lot of people. In my opinion there is no need to nerf HCEs to try to attract more people or to buff mobs to account for the elite level.

      If there is any changes to do to HCEs I would suggest adding/reworking the maps to make them more interesting and feasible without skips or even in difficulty. For example at the moment Raven's Claw & Fungicide are almost (to the 99% of folks) un-doable without skips and on contrary Fishy Business or Fistful of Silver are quite large time-wise.
      While I am trying to look to the bright side, please understand it is very frustrating to deal with the fact that:
      • Robinhoodrs from SBI surveyed HCE sentiment in the arch discord. I didn't see a survey in HCE discord. That is not how one should do polls or collect feedbacks if one wants views from all sides. I consider myself a unicorn paying taxes and arch territory penalties (a total of -12%) while doing HCE. Most HCE players I observed are either in top ZvZ guilds, no guilds, or HCE-oriented guilds.

      Just to address this statement, this was for my personal feedback and getting to understand why players partake in HCE's and what would drive them maybe to switch into Open World activities instead, non of the feedback has been passed onto SBI in anyway on HCE's and this change hasn't even been addressed in the Patch Notes yet.
      I didn't think SBI would be looking to change HCE's with this patch so I didn't pass the feedback on and was planning to use my findings at a later date, if anything, the feedback I got was that players use HCE's mainly because they have little time to play (between 1-2 hours a day) and finding a group and entering into a HCE takes way less time (both finding a group and getting into the map) compared to Outlands fame farming and my suggestion would've been to not nerf the fame or silver reward but to instead limit the rewards daily, much like the Arena, that way players can still enjoy the content daily, but also once they hit the cap and are looking to carry on fame farming they can go out and enjoy the other content in the game and not instanced safe PvE all the time.

      But yes, that's my two cents on the subject, like I said multiple times during our talk on ARCH discord, the feedback was for personal use only.
      I apologize for dropping your name and not noticing that you have not passed on the feedbacks to SBI since it is of a personal nature. Now I wonder what observations or data those ninja changes are based on in the test server. I certainly hope someone from the SBI side can give some confirmation about whether those changes are intended to go live in 8 days.

      About your suggestion:
      • how limits can impact other things that I care about:
        • I don't think it is a good idea to discourage good HCE players to play with and teach other new players because their "limits" would be used up.
        • The daily limit is also very strict. The weekly cap makes much more sense to accommodate for different timezones and work schedules if one has to place it to discourage people from playing HCE.
        • Does the proposed limit account for failed maps? Is it capping map type-wise or level-wise?
        • Please name one other rewarding activity in Albion that allows you to make friends with other people that are not in your guild/alliance. The social value of HCE should not be taken away.
          • green dungeon: solo content
          • blue dungeon in blue/yellow zone with faction flagged: I honestly don't know who does this if they have better options
          • ava dungeon: controlled by big alliances
          • arena: rewarding???
          • crystal league: maybe, but to be honest that is that single content that I feel gated even a few months into the game
          • ganking & ava roads: you gank with your guildies/mates in the alliance; your victims won't like you
          • ZvZ: I personally cannot make friends when everybody plays with alt+h and hides names to avoid fps freeze under raid comm
        • Albeit unlikely for tanks, alts can be used to circumvent this.


      @Lpvv238 For EB boss, if the changes go to live, I think it will be then mandatory for all DPS to bring arcane to purge buffs in rotations. This is something really hard to pull off without voice comms because sometimes you want to delay purging when skellies spawn. It pretty much means that I won't just find random players from LFG channel to do the map with me if I want to do the map at all.
    • CAP on HCE sounds like a fun thing. Something like a daily or whatever.
      Because the fact that you can just grind HCE is a bit boring.

      I would leave HP and damage +- as it is or increased it a bit due to elite specs, but i would definitely nerf fame and silver.

      This is MMORPG open world game. The fact that there is Safe instanced content that offers much greater rates than open world and lethal content is honestly quite something. Now yes, it got nerfed, and thanks god for that, as it was crazy in past.

      And seeing some people above complained that they don´t get as much as silver such as those who " control market " - it´s like complained about zuckerberg generating more cash than you do. That alone says enough about HCE.

      Considering HCE is a safe and instanced activity that requires rather high endgame gear, the rewards should be decent. However, they should not compare even slightly to open world and lethal content.
      Safe content in a lethal game should absolutely never be compared to lethal content.

      Now i stopped caring about HCE issues quite some time ago, as it´s like the HCE players live in their own bubble, however - their affect on economy is undeniable, as they are like a silver printing machine, and it´s rather unfair towards players who play open world and do lethal content, yet their gains pale in comparison when it comes to HCE.

      HCE players often dont play the game like average players. They just do HCE and do not venture to dangerous zones. Now you could argue that if they do that, why force them to go outside ? And that´s the thing - you don´t force anyone. You just offer much better rates outside than rates inside. If HCE players are playing in a bubble, why should they mind outside having better rates?
      If HCE is like a bubble, just shrunk the rates in a bubble or buff rates outside of the bubble. What is inside of a bubble should never be comparable to what is outside.
      It should be like mastering high rates in yellow and blue zones. But mastering those should never ever be comparable to lethal zones.
      My YT channel - Solo greataxe killing everything https://www.youtube.com/user/DhaosNK/video=7
    • Just for the record @Borbarad, I believe ava dungeons are a lot more rewarding than HCEs already and with the next update it would be very dishonest to say that HCEs would offer great rewards compared to open world.

      Also again, "safe" is horribly misleading: that you die twice and pay 500k of repair or go with a 500k gear and go do lethal content is pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the type of content and, hopefully with the next update, that there is more opportunities in open world.

      >yet their gains pale in comparison when it comes to HCE

      In the current situation this is completely untrue: I get far more with ava dungeons, corrupted or hellgates than HCEs. But again, I agree that open world was not rewarding enough so I highly welcome the next update.

      >You just offer much better rates outside than rates inside


      Yes exaclty. And for this reason I honestly don't think the changes mentioned above are justified/necessary. Even without any fame/silver change I suspect a lot of people will attempt more open world.


      I would also add that, as you mentioned the HCE community is a bubble but I reckon more due to the type of content than anything. And killing HCEs will likely push more people out of the game than pushing them to do other type of content.
    • DeltaFirst wrote:

      Just for the record @Borbarad, I believe ava dungeons are a lot more rewarding than HCEs already and with the next update it would be very dishonest to say that HCEs would offer great rewards compared to open world.

      Also again, "safe" is horribly misleading: that you die twice and pay 500k of repair or go with a 500k gear and go do lethal content is pretty much the same thing. The only difference is the type of content and, hopefully with the next update, that there is more opportunities in open world.

      >yet their gains pale in comparison when it comes to HCE

      In the current situation this is completely untrue: I get far more with ava dungeons, corrupted or hellgates than HCEs. But again, I agree that open world was not rewarding enough so I highly welcome the next update.

      >You just offer much better rates outside than rates inside


      Yes exaclty. And for this reason I honestly don't think the changes mentioned above are justified/necessary. Even without any fame/silver change I suspect a lot of people will attempt more open world.


      I would also add that, as you mentioned the HCE community is a bubble but I reckon more due to the type of content than anything. And killing HCEs will likely push more people out of the game than pushing them to do other type of content.
      Ava dungeons are more rewarding ?How much ? And 8.3, 8.2 ? That´s the question.

      They should be Much More rewarding, not just a bit. You risk a lot there. You move to BZ, and it´s not uncommon that some ava raids are wiped out. You risk being betrayed, ganked, it takes time to prepare, to go there and back.

      For HCE ? There is NO risk like that. No time wasted like that.
      And dying in HCE is no Risk. That´s being knocked due to being incompetent and making mistakes. You can get knocked in ava dungeon too, that´s no risk - that´s failing at PVE.

      You don´t do 8.3 HCE with 500k worth gear. The risk there is Immense.

      The rates in bubble shouldnt be comparable to rates outside of a bubble. And if the rates are already high in a bubble, you can´t just offer even greater rates outside, as everyone would go brr and had 400 in few weeks and economy would get crashed.
      It´s the time to reduce rates in a bubble.
      And yes, corrupted should be nerfed heavily or put under some restrictions , and the 50% change ? Idk, didn´t bother even giving it a thought yet, so no idea about that.
      My YT channel - Solo greataxe killing everything https://www.youtube.com/user/DhaosNK/video=7

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Borbarad ().

    • G0000000 wrote:

      What these changes lead to is that even the best HCE players I know are leaving HCE. In that regard, a job well done.
      they leave at every change and cannot leave.

      it's already become a meme :thumbsup:

      As for Ava, yes, there should be a change, the gates should not be in the middle of the dungeon, but before every boss.


      SuperHard88 wrote:

      Now SBI solved these problems, and we will see many 700/700+8.3 gear ppl out in BZ, XDDD.
      HCE players still think that 8.3 in BZ is something rare... :D 8)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Quagga ().

    • as many can say. it's true that most of the time you cannot compare apples and pears..
      yes both are fruit, but not the same, but at the end both are food.

      same with HCE and DGs (yes, DGs are also instances, the only difference is the gate stay open, compared to HCE that it closes)
      so as another point of view.

      when talking about Silver that is what moves Albion market.

      yes HCE can be compared to other activities.
      yes it most likely produce more silver that normal DGs,
      - specially remembering that all the loot you get.. is not real silver until you transport it to you city market and sell it.
      - there is to much waste loot, to many items that no one will even buy at a good prices, or just never will buy.
      compared to HCE where the silver you make, inmediately is yours.
      yes most likely compared to AVA, you may get some more benefits from AVAs.

      what i read alot from player's comments, varies alot, but you see some patterns.

      as in AVAs and HCE, the top tier have to many requirments to make those efficient and as profitable as those can be, making it almost a requirement (but can be done other way)
      - HCE requires 700/700 on all you set items - same for AVA
      - why, just cause that maximize either, Heal, DPS, Tanking, Support
      - can it be done with other different sets... yes it can be.
      . will it be as efficient as the most required ones? maybe not... thats why those are what moyority require, casue those are the more balanced for a more efficient farming of AVA / HCE.

      - Time vs profit
      - yes you can make alot of money in an AVA, but it varies alot, some players maybe 3 M other maybe 20M (cause of a great drop... remember still not real silver until its sold on market, or crafted and sold in market)
      so if you average an AVA up to 3hrs, and you make 3M.. then 1 M x 1 hour, or good luck 6.7M x 1 hour.
      - HCE for efficient TOP groups, maybe 5M x 1 hour.
      (only using hypotetic values just to explain my point of view)

      and lets be hones.. once you have 700/700... you no longer go to AVA and HCE for fame..
      it becomes irrelevant over time.. since what we all look for is silver. fame after that points is only a plus not a must

      normal average HCE players may play it for fame, but never top players.
      normal average AVA players go for fame a random loot, but top players go for crafting materials (T6-T8 artefacts, to craft and sell)


      but the truth, top HCE players do it Silver.
      and why SETS super Expensive, when you can still do it with lower Tier ?? !!
      just cause it makes it even more efficient.
      but again, is a plus in efficiency on making money.. not a must.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Kransten: grammar and spelling ().

    • @Kransten Top HCE player in a top HCE group cannot make 5M silver per hour. It is literally impossible because even if you do lvl. 18 non-stop, the raw silver collected is at most around 2.5 M/hour. The chest barely covers the map fee at lvl. 18 and you still have to reduce food cost and repair fee from that 2.5M. So, in that, you are definitely overestimating HCE silver gains in current patch by a large margin.

      How is that 2.5M/h not even realistic:
      • The map fee in the current patch is around 350-400k.
      • This map fee is computed by 1.8M / 5.
      • That 1.8 M comes from the fact that map owners usually buy maps at around 1.8M from lvl. 14 or 15.
      • Then we gather players to play from 14-18. So then it is fair that everyone covers that map cost at the end.
      • If you only want to play lvl. 18 non-stop and buying the lvl. 18 maps from market, then the map fee should be 2.5M to 3M divided by 5, which makes the actual silver gain rate probably around 1.6-1.7M/h, which is roughly the same like playing lvl. 16/17 with no fee.



        Other things:
      • I play HCE after having both frost and curse 700/700. I am currently speccing fire for zvz and next probably holy and arcane for zvz. With auto-respec on, so yes I am losing silver while I play even in current patch.
      • Why is HCE gear expensive? First of all, it’s really just artifacts that are expensive. With the reroll changes on test server, the price will go down pretty conceivably.
      • Why do you need top gear for HCE? No, you don’t. You need top gear for slots that matter. M1an literally plays with flat 4 in armor. We joked about how he should just trash instead of repairing that Druid robe if it ever reaches 50% hahaha. The truth is, if you are good enough, people won’t care if you are full 8.3 MP or not.

        *Bare in mind, there is an exception where if you pull 4 Mages in preaching, you better actually pray because 2 random icicle shots will one shot non 8.3 for sure xddddd.



    • I always thought HCE was giving a real value to gucci gear and it has already been discussed after the first HCE nerf.

      Devs give priority to pvp content if I remember, and if a change on a weapon ruins a certain HCE meta build, sad but ok. In this case, they are looking directly in the activity, so they plan some update on it.

      Why were expeditions and HCE originally created ? Why is the whole royal set depending solely on them ? I may be mistaken, but I believe expeditions were made for short time players, beginners, and mobile players maybe ? Then people grinded it because it generated lots of silver at the launch of the game.

      Then the rewards have been capped to once a day.

      HCE have then created for players who wanted to try to play harder and harder pve, putting aside pvp potential to replace it by costly trial and error, optimisations, ... (ie. Armed Bandit)

      Nowadays, best strategies have been found, with very few min-maxing to do. And all the players have left to do now, is ripe the rewards of all that research, and except for (non advanced, non maxed) tanks, noone is really taking any risk anymore, thus breaking the risk/reward balance.

      Seeing this, HCE have been nerfed, and players beginning in this activity are losing money. So the global fame and silver nerf was maybe not the answer.

      Looking at clean runs in tutorials, what I see today is tanks repeating exact same steps run after run (this is hard, but this is boring too), healers having to focus for one exact spell and timing, and dps pressing their buttons with no need to stay focused, and only few pulls to help with.

      So yeah HCE is satisfying mobile players aka xbow, short sessions players, and we can still try few fun things to change the pace and master the game mechanics even further, but that's it. No risk is worth taking anymore and HCE content is stagnating, with no real need for cooperation.

      What I would personally like to see (and other ideas that I think are worth mentioning):

      Normal expeditions up to a level reasonable for 8.3 no spec players, so ppl can have their short sessions + mobile friendly content (maybe same difficulty of lvl. around 8-11, and HCE starting from this difficulty).

      Adapt the limit in expeditions number accordingly in this case

      HCE with more fame on mobs, less on boss (it means encouraging people to make bigger/more dangerous packs if they want better fame). Remove time limit, or increase it

      IP (soft) cap in HCE ?

      Tokens instead of maps, where every member needs one (splitting the risk on team, but less social)

      Varying required team size from maybe 4 to 6, meaning we have to work again on optimizing the runs
    • ConorBroekhart wrote:

      Looking at clean runs in tutorials, what I see today is tanks repeating exact same steps run after run (this is hard, but this is boring too), healers having to focus for one exact spell and timing, and dps pressing their buttons with no need to stay focused, and only few pulls to help with.
      Not entirely true. As you said, you are looking at clean runs in tutorials done by highly experienced players (probably has done it thousands of times) who know and trust each other's capability. If you just find random players in LFG chat, you really can't expect them to be the same.

      However, I agree that if it is a highly coordinated, experienced team, the process is indeed less risk-involved and repetitive somewhat. However, attention is still required from all parties.



      Let me share an example of how things can go wrong in a normal run. In the above image, both shadowcaller and healer are not walking the right path. Both have at least 500m PVE fame under their belt, and yet they are still not aware of this. What was the end result? Both tank and xbow died later because shadow caller (he pulled aggro first) didn't reset the mob with boots before the mob calls for nearby mobs. Since this is fistful of silver that requires a dagger swap set normally, it means 300k repair fee at least for the xbow. Now, I told xbow yesterday (he is a guildie) that he must learn to protect himself and bring an invisible potion for things like this. Even then, that could only avoid some situations, not all of them.

      I also don't think HCE can be done on mobile at all. I have met so many players who do subpar damage compared to the leading DPS (-8% and below), and they are on PC. People often don't understand what DPS actually need to do in HCE, so let me put it here:
      • DPS's duty in HCE is not just pressing buttons. It is to adapt to the tank's particular playstyle, kill key mobs first before they are no longer in CC, dish out as much damage as possible within the aggro from Qs by the tank.
      • adapt to the tank's particular playstyle
        • indeed, for the normal mob packs, it is tending to be homogeneous, but still, you can get too much aggro if you didn't use your boot skills correctly
          • even then, traps and stickies, can't emphasize how important they are and how every tank has his/her own preference
        • For the boss, it is all kinds of things
          • frost beam v.s. iron root
          • sword shield v.s. black monk staff
          • cape bugging?

          • air compression at 3 sisters or one by one
          • no healer v.s. healer raven
          • so many other variations mean the positioning and your skills and gear needs to be changed according
        • Let me give a concrete example: I don't like to bring a dagger swap set in a fistful of silver map at all. However, because my tank's pull style, he won't be able to control aggro if I simply go pork roast on frost. I will out DPS any other dagger players in the team at the boss and I will die. So, I adapt. No matter how good you are. You will still need to cooperate and pay attention in all forms.
      • kill key mobs means that you need to forgo damage to do the right thing
        • kill those dogs because they have the lowest cc resistance and deal a ton of damage to tanks
        • kill that mage in raven because they have ranged auto attacks
        • kill/freeze small girls in wildlings map because they have ranged auto attacks
      • dish out as much damage as possible within the aggro from Qs by the tank means you need to observe and think
        • not just pressing buttons at all!!!
        • if you don't see health bar missing from mobs, that means tanks have not done any damage to the mobs => no attacks are allowed
        • if you see tanks only gave 1 Q or 2 Q, control your damage, don't go full cape and royal robe, you will die
        • if you see tanks gave 3 Qs, you are safer, but you still need to use your boots correctly
        • if you don't even care how many Qs your tanks have hit, you are not there yet
        If one can show me one can do all that on mobile (communicate clearly in chat, positioning to dodge skills, count Q stacks and CC time, kills key mobs first and dish out damage enough to avoid multiple waves), I will be sincerely amazed.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by G0000000: Editing to see if images can appear properly ().

    • Capping HCE will not do anything, this will just bring back HCE alts (if you already don't have one to dodge guild taxes).

      HCE is no more dangerous than t5 yellow zone so fame/silver should be inline with yellow zone dungeons.

      I'm not sure why there's talk of difficulty putting HCE teams together, LFG chat which was originally for fame farm is now only HCE. It's no different then putting a team together for group dungeons, if anything its way better/faster/safer since you dont have to worry about people who will drop tags or call their friends for the location of the dungeon in t6 and above zones.