For Designer , About Spear Nerf.

    • For Designer , About Spear Nerf.

      forum.albiononline.com/index.p…ostID=1177285#post1177285

      <1>
      AAdmg nerf 40% to 32% , accually only nerf 11% totally :

      If we have 1 stacks , it's only nerf 100%-(100%+32%)/(100%+40%) = 5.8%
      2 stacks , 100%-(100%+32*2%)/(100%+40*2%) = 8.9%
      3 stacks , 100%-(100%+32*3%)/(100%+40*3%) = 11%

      <2>
      Why nerf 11% is not enough ?

      Let's see all Q of melee with their highest DMG , these data is from 0 spec / T6 / 900 IP / two-hands.
      (Formula : Skills DMG/s + AAdmg/s + Bouns effect)
      ---Fighter---
      Great Sword's Q1 : Single target / 3s Cooldown / 237 DMG / 36% AS+MS with 3 stacks / 78 AAdmg per sec
      237/3 + 99*136% = 213 Q+AA dmg per sec & 36%MS

      Great Axe's Q3 : If u only Q twice and dont let Q cooldown 6s , plus its dot dmg will be like
      152*2/2.5 + 99 + 77*3/6 = 259 Q+AA+Dot dmg per sec

      Great Axe's Q1 : But axe's real singel target skill is Q1
      164/2 + 99 + 77*3/6 = 219 Q+AA+Dot dmg per sec

      Dagger Pair's Q1 : Single target / 2s Cooldown / 212 DMG / Reduce 11 Resistance for Player
      212/2 + 105 = 211 Q+AA dmg per sec & Reduce 11 Resistance for Player
      ---Tank---
      QuarterStaff's Q1 : Single target / 3s Cooldown / 250 DMG / Stun enemy when stack three times
      250/3 + 90 = 173 Q+AA dmg per sec & Stun enemy when stack three times

      Great Hammer's Q2 : Single target / 3s Cooldown / 265 DMG
      265/3 + 87 = 175 Q+AA dmg per sec

      Heavy Mace's Q1 : Single target / 3s Cooldown / 203 DMG / Give teammate Resistance
      203/3 + 87 = 154 Q+AA dmg per sec & More Resistance
      ---NoBarinSpear---
      Pike's Q1 : AOE / 3s Cooldown / 237 DMG / Plus 32% AAdmg every stacks
      237/3 + 99*196% = 273 Q+AA dmg per sec

      This DMG seems near Axe's Q3 , but ...
      1.Axe's Q3 is good at Aoe , But if u use it in Team fight , u need use it 3 times to loot enemy and let it in 6s Cooldown , its dmg will decrease a lot.
      2.If u use Axe's Q3 to 1v1 or 2v2 , its range only 3m , and Spear's Q1 is 8m
      3.Even in Open world 1v1 , Spear can use Passive 4 to get 40% AS , plus its 96% AAdmg will be overpower in single target.

      Compare like Dagger's Q1 / Axe's Q1 / QuarterStaff's Q1 / Great Hammer's Q2 , they are also Focus single target ,
      I know these Q is burst out style , Spear's AAdmg buff more like enduring DMG , but if u compare with Axe Q1 or Other Q...
      273 DMG / 219 DMG = 1.24 time , it's still too much , Even I not calculate with AS Passive.

      If Spear's Q1 really nerf 40 to 25% as I say , that will be...
      237/3 + 99*175% = 252 Q+AA dmg per sec
      252 DMG / 219 DMG = 1.15 time , even it seems a lot of nerf for Spear , but accually only nerf 20% on its AAdmg (as I post before)

      At last , I Sort out why Spear's Q OP in my case.
      1.When it have 40% AAdmg , it will make 237/3 + 99*220% = 296 DMG , more than Other melee 296 / 219 = 1.35 time.
      2.With AAdmg Buff , its Passive will more Powerful than Other Melee (Attack speed & Lifesteel)
      3.Range , whatever Q1 or Q2's range with BIG DMG is OP , if we nerf Spear's AAdmg , the Range will be OK.

      <3>
      Now I know Q1's situation , But how about Q2 ?

      Im not calculate Q2 yet , If this issue discuss to there , I will calculate.
    • How did you even get the 5.8%, 8.9% and 11%? AA damage has no diminishing returns and it stacks multiplicatively if there are more than 1 buff influencing it, meaning 40%+40% localised within one buff is 80% under any circumstances, but 36% + 60% provided by two different buffs would turn out as 117%.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Lol
      Theres a "cast time" Hidden in animation Q1 no counting here. Thats why You play Kite Style, not bruiser Style against other melees. The hitbox is not Big enough to garantize charges at gvg, but no problem it's a skillshot.
      Q2 Yes, it's a problem at CD. No body plays a singlet Target skill at open World. Would be stupid.
    • Spam post... you've already posted this.

      This post particularly has bad math, bad language and bad format...

      You're comparing abilities that aren't comparable and ignoring things like AoE damage, utility, skillshot/non-skillshot, damage modifiers on passives and skills, etc...

      At the end of the day you can't quantify some of those parameters and your calculations end up becoming obsolete.

      There's some data sources though telling us how many times spears are used in CD's, HG's and Crystals and I can agree spear Q line is strong, specially Q2 in certain content.

      There's other Q lines pretty strong also...

      I would say the coming nerf is justified. It might be too much or too little but until we see people playing it after the patch and how it affects the meta on CD's' crystals and HG's it seems only a wild guess.
    • AuntieMcRanty wrote:

      Spam post... you've already posted this.

      This post particularly has bad math, bad language and bad format...

      You're comparing abilities that aren't comparable and ignoring things like AoE damage, utility, skillshot/non-skillshot, damage modifiers on passives and skills, etc...

      At the end of the day you can't quantify some of those parameters and your calculations end up becoming obsolete.

      There's some data sources though telling us how many times spears are used in CD's, HG's and Crystals and I can agree spear Q line is strong, specially Q2 in certain content.

      There's other Q lines pretty strong also...

      I would say the coming nerf is justified. It might be too much or too little but until we see people playing it after the patch and how it affects the meta on CD's' crystals and HG's it seems only a wild guess.
      Lamo this artist is for designer not for u , I make sure designer can see so I post .
      Bad math ? Dont just say and math to proof XD
      Bad Language ? Ya sorry My Mother tongue isn't English
      Bad format ? How good you are ?
      I proof all myself in my post , where u proof your word ? Just talking ?
      Hehe.

      PaladinJavier wrote:

      Lol
      Theres a "cast time" Hidden in animation Q1 no counting here. Thats why You play Kite Style, not bruiser Style against other melees. The hitbox is not Big enough to garantize charges at gvg, but no problem it's a skillshot.
      Q2 Yes, it's a problem at CD. No body plays a singlet Target skill at open World. Would be stupid.
      Accually I just make it easy to understand why it broken , and also I cant find all of data for cast time with every Q ,
      Every skill on Q all have cast time , Maybe it will overestimated Spear's AAdmg.
      YA I agree hixbox not a problem if this skill dont have too Much DMG .
      Agree Q2 is only OP on CD , so My biggest point is on Q1.

      Hattenhair wrote:

      How did you even get the 5.8%, 8.9% and 11%? AA damage has no diminishing returns and it stacks multiplicatively if there are more than 1 buff influencing it, meaning 40%+40% localised within one buff is 80% under any circumstances, but 36% + 60% provided by two different buffs would turn out as 117%.
      I think u misunderstand , it is mean "nerf degree" from No Nerf(100%) to Nerf 11%(89%) , all of time I only say about Q's AAdmg buff.
    • k993dy wrote:

      I think u misunderstand , it is mean "nerf degree" from No Nerf(100%) to Nerf 11%(89%) , all of time I only say about Q's AAdmg buff.
      Oh, you mean the % difference between pre and post-nerf. Got it.

      Now if it were me I'd compare not AA or Q damage, but rather damage in the whole weapon toolkit. I'll do a basic comparison between 2 weapons I would assume are the closest in their respective roles, yet are in different trees: Pike and Claymore with an IP of 1103 and 1104 respectively.
      Since scaling with AA buffs is multiplicative (most complaints seem to go towards cloth spear users), I will take a 60% mag/atk bonus as a baseline (Full cleric gear with damage passives on).
      I'm not gonna go frame-hunting to calculate the exact animation times for each skill because it's just too laborous.

      I will go for the W+E burst-routes and use AA and Q as the main source of sustain damage during cooldowns.

      Claymore (1104 IP) skill set (60% atk bonus included, passives excluded):
      • AA - 190 phys dmg, 1 AA/s, (1.12, 1.24 and 1.36 for each Q stack respectively).
      • Q1 - Heroic Strike - 453 phys dmg, 3s CDR, 12% MS/AA bonus, 6s duration.
      • W4 - Splitting Slash - 787 phys dmg, 15s CDR, 2.23s Root.
      • E - Charge - 1702 phys dmg at 3 stacks, 20s CDR, 0.8s Stun, 1s I-Frame.
      Claymore fastest burst DPS route from 0 stacks (~11-12s in execution time):
      Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3 AA in 3s (0.89s per), 1 stack (190x3=570) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3AA in 3s (0.8s per), 2 stacks (190x3=570) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 1AA (0.74s), 3 stacks (190) --> W (787, 0.3s; standtime cancel of 0.5s) --> E (1702, ~0.8s if casting point-blank).
      Total damage = 5178, before factoring armor.

      Claymore sustain DPS route after burst for next 20s, starting at 0 stacks (Swords favour skill damage over AA damage):
      Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3 AA in 3s (0.89s per), 1 stack (190x3=570) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3AA in 3s (0.8s per), 2 stacks (190x3=570) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 4AA in 3s (0.74s per), 3 stacks (190x4=760) --> Repeat Q and 4AA 3 times ((453+760)x3).
      Total damage = 6898 damage, before armor.

      Pike (1103 IP) skill set (60% atk bonus included, passives excluded):
      • AA - 237 phys dmg (332, 426 and 521 for each Q stack respectively), 0.8AA/s.
      • Q1 - Lunging Strike - 454 phys dmg, 3s CDR, 40% AA bonus, 8s duration, 5.45s 10% slow.
      • W5 - Impaler - 902 phys dmg, 12s CDR, 5.45s 50% slow.
      • E - Rooting Smash - 1372 phys dmg at 3 stacks, 15s CDR, 5.07s Root.
      Pike burst route from 0 stacks (~8-9s in execution time):
      Q (454, ~0.35s, there seems to be a weird grace period afterwards where you can't AA for an additional ~0.9s) --> 2 AA in 3s (1.24s per), 1 stack (332x2=664) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,9s grace) --> 2 AA in 3s (1.24s per), 2 stack (426x2=852) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,9s) -> 1AA (1.24s), 3 stack (521) --> W (902, ~0.5s, this skill has no standtime?) --> E (1372, ~0.5s, 0 standtime aswell?).
      Total damage = 5673, before armor.

      Pike sustain route from 3 stacks (most spears dont drop stacks after E) for 20s (Spears favour AA over Q at 3 stacks):
      Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,9s) --> 5AA in 8s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x5=2605) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,9s) --> 5AA in 8s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x5=2605) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,9s) --> 3AA in 4s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x3=2084).
      Total damage = 8656, before armor.

      Post-nerf AA's will deal 237, 312, 389, 465 damage respectively.
      Burst post-nerf route will deal - 5491 damage.
      Sustain 20s route will deal - 7407 damage.

      In conclusion:
      Pike has more damage and burst opportunities, while having much less utility.

      The nerf seems pretty reasonable on paper since spears, if played correctly, may never drop their stacks. One of my concerns would be 1h spears which will loose a ton of pressuring damage as a result, especially the regular 1h spear since it's the only spear that drops stacks on E and might need a buff to put it in the line with other spears.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Hattenhair: Fixed sword 3 stack AA damage and grace period for spear Q1, fixed massive mistake of sword Q having attack damage bonus and not AS. ().

    • Hattenhair wrote:

      Pike sustain route from 3 stacks (most spears dont drop stacks after E) for 20s (Spears favour AA over Q at 3 stacks):Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,4s) --> 5AA in 8s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x5=2605) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,4s) --> 5AA in 8s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x5=2605) --> Q (454, ~0.35s+~0,4s) --> 3AA in 4s (1.24s per), 3 stacks (521x3=2084).
      Total damage = 8656, before armor.
      Hey why 5AA in 8s Spear cant Q can you answer me? Q's cooldown only 3s.
      With Q spear can reset AA and in this case Q's cast time with DMG is worth to use.
      521 / 1.24 = 420 < this is for AA
      454 / (0.35+0.4) = 605 < this is for Q

      And if u count in other skill , it should count in Passive.

      And how you get all cast time data ?

      Hattenhair wrote:

      Claymore sustain DPS route after burst for next 20s, starting at 0 stacks (Swords favour skill damage over AA damage):Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3 AA in 3s (0.89s per), 1 stack (212x3=636) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3AA in 3s (0.8s per), 2 stacks (235x3=705) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 4AA in 3s (0.74s per), 3 stacks (304x4=1216) --> Repeat Q and 4AA 3 times ((453+1216)x3).
      Total damage = 8923 damage, before armor.
      And why sword's stacks can buff AAdmg from 212 , 235 to 304 ?

      Conclusion : Wrong calculation.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by k993dy ().

    • k993dy wrote:

      Hey why 5AA in 8s Spear cant Q can you answer me? Q's cooldown only 3s.
      With Q spear can reset AA and in this case Q's cast time with DMG is worth to use.
      521 / 1.24 = 420 < this is for AA
      454 / (0.35+0.4) = 605 < this is for Q
      I made the mistake of assuming my recording runs at 60 fps, while it's actually at 30 fps, so the actual value for the grace period is about two times bigger.

      k993dy wrote:

      And why sword's stacks can buff AAdmg from 212 , 235 to 304 ?
      Fixed.

      k993dy wrote:

      And how you get all cast time data ?
      Made a recording of the skill in action and counted the frames it takes for it to come out. Excluding both E abilities, which are just very rough estimates made via a timer. Cast time data for Sword Q and W can be found in NDA patchnotes.

      k993dy wrote:

      And if u count in other skill , it should count in Passive.
      Feel free to add your contributions.
      - You're a monster.
      - Am I?
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3 AA in 3s (0.89s per), 1 stack (212x3=636) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 3AA in 3s (0.8s per), 2 stacks (235x3=705) --> Q (453, 0.35s) --> 4AA in 3s (0.74s per), 3 stacks (258x4=1033) --> Repeat Q and 4AA 3 times ((453+1033)x3).
      Bro... Sword Q haven't AAdmg Buff , So It is wrong with :
      212*3 > 235*3 > 258*4
      It's should be :
      212*3 > 212*3 > 212*4
      maybe 212 is a wrong data too , I delete Albion so IDK.