Holy Flash change on NDA notes ruins a perfectly viable way to play it.

    • Combat Balance
    • Holy Flash change on NDA notes ruins a perfectly viable way to play it.

      I feel people are underutilizing holy flash because they haven't seriously tried it in large group content (zvz). Most people use the other Q, so the usage of holy flash has been discouraged, it's seen as the wrong way to play it. You shouldn't change how it plays because of that, change the numbers if you like to make more people view it as viable, but the tradeoff of mobility for healing output is a good one. Having that tradeoff for massive healing output is good game design, don't ruin it.

      My personal build with it tops the healing charts on kill-board.com easily each time i've played it, using the cast time reduction passive on the default holy staff, and the hallowfall staff, in conjunction with a tome of spells to cut the cast time even more.

      With these 2 factors and omelet you drop cast time below the 0.5s global cooldown, so hit a hard limit of 2 casts per second. And 2 casts per second is a lot of healing output in ZvZ.

      The whole build is cleric robe, druid cowl (to sustain the gallons of energy you consume), graveguard boots (for extra escape), FS cape, then either holy staff, or hallowfall, with tome of spells offhand.

      If you are going to change holy flash please let it keep it's identity as having only the cast time to reduce, and no cooldown.

      @Retroman
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      The post was edited 1 time, last by zamea ().

    • Adding to this post some maths about the current holy flash vs the proposed new holy flash.

      First of all, the current one scales +10% per target, up to a maximum of +90% at 10 targets (though still only heals 5 of those 10), I believe this is a bug, but that's what is in the game at the moment. A possible way to correct this and buff the current iteration might be to rescale the buff back to 5 allies at +20% each after the first, for +80 at 5.

      This means that looking at the proposed base healing numbers 34 -> 130. At 10 targets hit this is currently 64.6 ->130, only a 100% increase. This is combined however with a 500% increase in cooldown, assuming you can reduce cast time below 0.5s (which with the tome of spells and last passive on weapon is easy). Even accounting for omelet taking this cooldown to 2.6s that's still an overall 62% REDUCTION in healing output, from a change meant to buff this ability.

      This change will not revive holy flash, it will kill the only viable use I have found for it.


      Another factor is by casting it every 0.5s if you miss the target you wanted to heal (if there are 6+) you get to slap another heal down 0.5s later to try and catch them, making the cooldown 2.6s means if your heal hits the wrong 5 people, that other player is left high and dry for way too long. while an aoe heal shouldn't be considered a reliable way to heal a specific player (which is why i like the default 1h holy to use with flash to keep that power) it's still going to feel even worse under your proposed changes.
    • I propose changing this to make the value at 5 targets hit consistent with the current bugged value at 10 targets hit. This would mean changing the scaling to 20% per target, and changing this to cap at 80% with 5 targets. Currently it's 10% per target but scales up to 90% at 10 targets. This would already make it more viable in small scale fights as you wouldn't need to hit 10 players to get the most healing. (once again going to mention that the heal only affects 5 targets, it's just those 5 receive more if there's another 5 in the aoe, this is very easy to confirm).

      In addition, It feels much nicer to use this with the lower cast time provided by tome of spells, which is why I have to use it on a 1h holy staff, and this limits the scope of a Q spell to only the 1h options, which isn't good. To counteract this I think the cast time should be slightly lower on all 2h holy staves, changing it to 0.7 from 0.8 would already make quite a big difference.

      If those changes don't prove to be enough then just increase the heal amount slowly by 10 or 20% compared to the current value. If making it overpowered for a patch is required to have people explore the skill and give it the time of day to build around then do that before scaling it back to parity with other options.

      It's overlooked in my opinion, in addition to being underpowered, and only viable in zvz due to a bug which could easily be factored into it's balance.
    • it was changed from a stationary spam heal to a big heal with low cast speed but long cooldown for a Q skill

      it was super vulnerable with the many small cast times to output enough heal.

      while i agree the change kills a viable play style "cast speed play style"
      and now one passive is a dead passive on the holy tree

      but looking it from the other side its a different approach to Holy Q3 which may or may not be better for the game after a few buffs down the line

      personally i am leaning to the side where it would be slightly underpowered upon release because it is now a static heal independent of number of players affected
      here is some maths to prove it. it is good burst healing when used correctly but lacks the constant healing that the cast speed focus play style has

      on the bright side it does not have mana issues any more.

      New holy flash
      cooldown: 3s
      cast time:0.4
      Number of casts: 1
      heal value: 130

      Heals for 1 target: 130
      Heals for 2 targets:260
      Heals for 3 targets:390
      Heals for 4 targets:520
      Heals for 5 targets:650

      Old holy flash
      cooldown: 0
      cast time: 0.8
      number of casts: 4 = 3.2 seconds (before all the cast speed buff from items and passive which greatly increase this number)
      heal value: 34

      Heals for 1 target: 34x4=136
      Heals for 2 targets: 34x4x1.1x2=299
      Heals for 3 targets: 34x4x1.2x3=489
      Heals for 4 targets: 34x4x1.3x4=707
      Heals for 5 targets: 34x4x1.4x5=952

      also a thing to take note when healing with old Q is in the 0.8 seconds the players might already moved so the healing some times go to waste
      where the new heal is faster and heals for more. and allows the healer to reposition /cast defensives

      so we wait and see how the new change affects things and most likely ask for a buff to the skill
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    • The_Support_God wrote:

      it was changed from a stationary spam heal to a big heal with low cast speed but long cooldown for a Q skill

      it was super vulnerable with the many small cast times to output enough heal.

      while i agree the change kills a viable play style "cast speed play style"
      and now one passive is a dead passive on the holy tree

      but looking it from the other side its a different approach to Holy Q3 which may or may not be better for the game after a few buffs down the line

      personally i am leaning to the side where it would be slightly underpowered upon release because it is now a static heal independent of number of players affected
      here is some maths to prove it. it is good burst healing when used correctly but lacks the constant healing that the cast speed focus play style has

      on the bright side it does not have mana issues any more.

      New holy flash
      cooldown: 3s
      cast time:0.4
      Number of casts: 1
      heal value: 130

      Heals for 1 target: 130
      Heals for 2 targets:260
      Heals for 3 targets:390
      Heals for 4 targets:520
      Heals for 5 targets:650

      Old holy flash
      cooldown: 0
      cast time: 0.8
      number of casts: 4 = 3.2 seconds (before all the cast speed buff from items and passive which greatly increase this number)
      heal value: 34

      Heals for 1 target: 34x4=136
      Heals for 2 targets: 34x4x1.1x2=299
      Heals for 3 targets: 34x4x1.2x3=489
      Heals for 4 targets: 34x4x1.3x4=707
      Heals for 5 targets: 34x4x1.4x5=952

      also a thing to take note when healing with old Q is in the 0.8 seconds the players might already moved so the healing some times go to waste
      where the new heal is faster and heals for more. and allows the healer to reposition /cast defensives

      so we wait and see how the new change affects things and most likely ask for a buff to the skill
      First, the skill is bugged and scales up to 10 targets, this shouldn't be the case probably, but currenly is so I was using those values (I feel like those values should be adjusted to ahve the skill heal that much at 5 targets). So you get up to a +90% heal on 5 of the 10 targets in the AoE.

      >also a thing to take note when healing with old Q is in the 0.8 seconds the players might already moved so the healing some times go to wastewhere the new heal is faster and heals for more. and allows the healer to reposition /cast defensives

      Second, the cast delay currently with buffs is around 0.45s when you get going, so the delay before healing if people were to move is less than the proposed change, which is a 0.4s cast time, and a further 0.4s delay before the effect. As it's no longer worth it to get lower cast times with the reworked skill, the delay before the affect heals allies will be longer.

      My idea for a buff would be to make it 20% per target up to +80% at 5 (but stop there, as it currenlty scales to 10 here). As well as lower the cast time on 2h holy staves as they can't benefit from the tome of spells.

      As you say though energy would be less of an issue, I would probably run something akin to hallowfall, mistcaller, druid cowl, cleric robe, graveguard boots, FS cape. This would only be about a 50% reduction in healing output from the Q, but you'd gain more casts of W and E from the cooldown reduction on mistcaller so that would make up for it somewhat, so probably about 40% reduction in heal output overall. Playable sure, but it's hardly going to make flash heal more playable to everyone else, who will ignore it still.