Balance Megathread by Hatten

    • Combat Balance
    • Balance Megathread by Hatten

      Welcome to a thread where I compile my previous posts and thoughts into a more coherent data set alongside added arguments, solutions, formatting and/or reasoning;
      Suggestions may be taken into consideration, criticism and discussion are encouraged. Thread will be updated whenever I feel like it.
      __________

      Daggers:
      I view both of the newly added spells to the dagger tree with a tint of confusion and disgust, both of which were intended to help daggers in PvE situations (i.e. lack of AoE damage)
      As for my vision I see the addition of AoE pressure to a tree with one of the biggest amounts of utility and movement options, also with the biggest solo target burst damage a glaring issue.
      These 2 skills single handedly made daggers into a hybrid bruiser-assasin class, mostly devaluing swords as a utility-based bruiser as a result.
      As for the skills themselves here is my argumentation:
      • Deadly Swipe:
        • While being a free cast q mobility, which at times of adding was a thing only for the sword tree line (Additionally staves' Cart wheel Q with a much bigger cooldown and the requirement to receive damage to get a MS boost, yet this was already adressed in Call to Arms Patch 4), that also required direct adjacency of an enemy to generate stacks. Making the dagger tree a direct substitute for the sticky bruiser role, with the added advantage of humongous burst E's

          Deadly Swipe generates the "same stacks" as the Assassin Spirit Q, which increase damage by 6% and increases incoming damage by ~3.8%.Assassin spirit's tradeoff for generating stacks out of thin air is the increased incoming damage, but for some reason Deadly Swipe's advantage of free cast Q mobility and the ability to generate multiple stacks depending on the amount of enemies hit is exempt from any direct tradeoff (Increased mana costs do not matter much since you regenerate most of it back on hit making the costs in line with other Q's for the most part), which I just do not understand.
          • Proposed Solutions: Leaving the damage at the same level to still leave daggers as a viable bruiser alternative, Deadly swipe should have some tradeoffs for mounstrous amounts of utility provided, or in another case decrease the amount of utility to offset the AoE pressure somewhat.

            Variant 1: Apply the same stacking method as the swords line' AoE Q has to increase the reaction/anticipation windows for opponents and making daggers, which heavily rely on hitting their E slightly more succeptible to purge. (i.e: Hitting 1 enemy generates 1 stack of Assassin Spirit, while hitting 3+ enemies generates 2 stacks of Assassin Spirit.)

            Variant 2: Apply the ~3.8% increased incoming damage per each stack to offset the ability to generate multiple stacks at a single button press and further keep daggers in line with an "Assassin" playstyle of high risk-high reward gameplay.

            Variant 3: Decrease the amount of mobility generated by increasing standtimes after cast by ~0.1s-0.2s (At the same time making daggers which utilise DS be more succeptibble to skillshots and AoE's, and overall increasing the combat commitment on each Q cast) OR Decrease the dash distance by 1m, down from 5m, to decrease "stickyness" of the dagger tree's bruiser variants.
          • Crude comparison of mobility provided by Deadly swipe to the default Run, alongside the Frost shot W, from the bow tree:
            Base MS - 5.5m/s
            60s interval - 2 Runs (30s ea.), 4 Frost shots (15s ea; including 0.3 cast time and 0.3s animation time + 0.1s margin of error, totalling at 0.7s), 15 Deadly swipes (4s ea; including 0.2 standtime and a margin of error for the animation of 0.1s totalling at 0.3s.)

            Distance covered in 60s with 2 Runs:
            14s with 160% (3.3m extra advantage per second of run) = 46.2m of generated distance in comparison to an opponent walking at default speed (330m vs 376.2m covered)

            Distance covered in 60s with 15 Deadly swipes:
            15 5m dashes with 4.5s of being locked into the animation (75m - 24.75m animation time which could have been spent walking) = 50.25m of generated distance.

            Distance covered in 60s with 4 Frost shots:
            If not hitting the slow: 4 13m dashes with 0.7s of being locked into casts and animation (52m - 15.4m for animation/cast time) = 36.6m of generated distance.
            If hitting the slow (~1k IP bow/leather armor with 40% ~7s slow duration and ~56% CC resist, 10% CC dur bonus) + additional 2.2m for 3.38s times 4 casts = 29.74m (66.36m total).
      • Chain Slash:
        • As for my personal understanding of dagger tree's design, they were never intended to be balanced with either AoE pressure damage or a direct damaging W, as glaringly visible by utility overload on W's and abundant burst damage on E's, playing out the role of an "Assassin's" get in and get out high risk-righ reward cycle.

          This skill singlehandedly ruined those 2 fundamentals: AoE pressure made daggers a direct substitute for a utility-based bruiser (I kinda feel bad for swords), while the added direct damage made it possible to combo people even further after your E, which increased the already high burst potential for the dagger tree. (Obvious comparison to the recent "Dagger pair nuke" in the 2v2 HG's, and their disproportionate popularity in 2v2's even after a nerf in Call to Arms Patch #4).
          • Proposed Solution: Despite being a glaring issue I do not have a coherent solution to this skill besides decreasing the damage of the skill, perhaps substituting it with additional utility such as increased I-Frame/Invisibility duration to compensate. The addition of this skill was specific to helping daggers excel in the SRD's added on F2P launch thus making it difficult to gauge the amount of damage decrease needed.
      • Devastating strike (Black Hands):
        • A point about BH making life hard for melee's and overall classes which rely on buffs:
          The frequent small jumps provided by both Deadly swipe and Shadow edge/Chain slash make micro-spacing and the already small selection of defensives against a BH haymaker even less viable, specifically I want to point out short duration I-Frames with movement capabilities such as Soldier helmet, Assassin shoes, and even some skills like the Trinity spear E.
          To continue: BH is an instant cast stunning haymaker, which makes defensives relying on timing a subject exclusively to anticipation, which in order can be used by a BH user for their own advantage in baiting and pressure. There is no issue in anticipation mechanics as most weaponry utilizing stacking mechanics is subject to it.
          Yet, Black Hands are an outlier requiring no stacks to function at full capacity, hence making the opponent rely on a strong gut feeling at best.
          If anticipation is out of the question, purgeable defensives are out of the question, and the very few I-frames that should do the job are easily baitable you are only left with unpurgeable resistance mechanisms (of which there are very few in the game) that do not lock you from casting spells such as Res and Giga pots, Giga boots and alike.

          The combination of traits such as pure damage, inability to anticipate and/or react propertly to, cancelling out via purge or baiting out most defensives, at the same time being unable to micro-space against due to constant dashes and gap closers leaves BH in a place I am not content with.
          • Proposed Solutions: There are 2 ways of dealing with the described in my opinion, mostly increasing the ways to counter BH's E apart from unpurgeable defensives:

            Variant 1: If to be viewed as an "Assassin" playstile weapon I would suggest limiting the on-hit E effects applied to target depending on the amount of Sunder/Assassin spirit stacks, without changing any damage numbers (i.e: 0 stacks applies nothing on the first hit + knockback on second, 1 stack applies a slow/root to the first hit, 2 stacks turn the first hit into a stun, 3 stacks make the first hit purging, etc.).
            This would increase counterplay by adding purge as a partial counter to BH, and in certain situations allowing unpurgeable defensives to be used effectively.

            Variant 2: If BH are to be viewed as a primarily bruiser-oriented weapon I would suggest adding an ~0.4s-0.6s interruptibble? cast time before continuing into the regular uninterruptibble channel, which would allow for active use of I-Frames as a non-anticipatory counter, optionally decreasing cooldown by couple of seconds to compensate for interrupts.
      • Slit throat (Dagger pair):


      Spears:
      • Spirit Spear Charges (Lunging strike and Spirit Spear Q's)
        • IMO the autoattack damage buff per stack (35%->40%) is what makes the 2h spears overtuned at the moment.
          People were always asking to put more emphasis on the kiting potential spears have, and instead we were granted more damage and left with a awkward 10% slow on the lunging strike.

          As of now spears at 3 stacks have about the same attack damage per hit as a reg. bow under the effects of quiver, the only practical differences being lower attack speed, range, less burst at the cost of sustained damage and much less succeptibility to purges (since lunging strike generates stacks based on enemies hit, and its a litteral Q). In combination with even earlier buffs such as most spears not consuming stacks on E cast, this made some of the spear line (pike, glaive) especially dangerous to confront face to face, as outsustaining constant high damage pokes is in itself quite troublesome, and the E's of these weapons provide ample CC and burst damage to provide combo potential for yourself and allies aswell.

          A distinctive lack of long duration defensives excluding frost and inferno shields make evading such a monstrous combination of powerful sustained and burst damage potential contribute to the issue even further.
        • For a comparison (Calculations are very crude, feel free to correct me):
          Regular bow at 1102 IP has 79 AA DPS, with 61 base AA damage, leaving us at ~1.3 attacks per second.
          Glaive at 1100 IP has 118 AA DPS, with 131 base AA damage, resulting with ~0.9 attacks per second.

          For Enchanted quiver 20s cycle:
          EQ -> 100% hit (100% AS, 0.77s) -> 135% hit (115% AS, 0.68s) -> 170% hit (130% AS, 0.59s) -> 205% hit (145% AS, 0.53s) -> 240% (160% AS, 0.48s) hit -> 275% hit (175% AS, 0.44s) -> remaining 13 hits at 310% with 190% AS (0.4s). -> 14 100% hits. Cycle duration 20s; Enchanted quiver duration ~8.7s, rest is for regular AA's; total attack power - 5155% * 61 base AA = 3998 damage before 38 armor shred for the last 13 hits.

          With armor shred, but no damage bonuses (1100 IP Assassin jacket with 166 armor/ 62% phys res taken as a baseline, 128 armor/56% phys res after shred) = (1125% * 61 * (1 - 0.62)) + (4030% * 61 * (1 - 0.56)) + (1400% * 61 * (1 - 0.62) = 1628 effective damage before damage bonuses.

          P.S. I do not know if the separate stacks of attack speed from each enchanted quiver buff are subject to diminishing returns so I just assumed they are perceived as a single buff, not as it heavily matters in comparing sustained damage outputs specifically for the Reg. bow anyways.

          For glaive, if used with Lunging strike (Disregarding the direct damage) at a worst case scenario of hitting one target for each stack gained this would result in a cycle like this: LS (3s CD) -> 1s standtime after skill casts -> 2 AA's at 140% -> LS -> 2 AA's at 180% -> LS -> 7 AA's at 220% -> LS -> 5 AA's at 220%. Total cycle duration ~20s; total AA power = 2960% * 131 base AA = 3877 damage before resistances/damage buffs.

          For a 3 stack triple LS cycle for 20s:
          LS -> 7 AA's at 220% -> LS -> 7 AA's at 220% -> LS -> 3 AA's at 220%; total attack power 3740% * 131 = 4899 damage before resistances/damage buffs.

          With armor in mind for the 0 to 3 stack 20s cycle (Same 1100 IP Assassin jacket for baseline) = 1473 damage after armor, but not damage bonuses.
          With armor in mind for the 3 stack 20s cycle = 4899 * (1 - 0.62) = 1861 damage after armor, but not damage bonuses.

          Conclusion: 3 stack 20s cycle via Glaive, with autoattacks alone deals more damage than the Enchanted quiver burst, even when factoring in armor shred, while at the same time bearing less succeptibility to purges (Purge shuts down bow for 20s in a best case scenario vs 9s for spears in a best case scenario, or 6s if using SS instead of LS) and unmatched sustained damage upkeep (Putting heavy emphasis on the lack of long duration defensives, which as a result healivy favors sutained damage outputs)
          • Proposed Solution: Nerf the AA modifier from 40% per SS stack back down to 35% or find a compromise between the two, while perhaps buffing the base AA damage of 1H spears as to not hinder them in an avalanche OR decrease the base AA damage of 2H spears to avoid modifying the SS stacks.
            Adding from personal experience: healing through sustained pokes of a 2H spear right now is troublesome even with a holy staff, not even mentioning how hard it is for druids.


      Fire Staves:
      • Fire wall
        • Being a staple anti-melee-engage zoning tool for as long as I know Albion, it's value has been severely reduced in small scale content by addition of many I-Frame leaps and Uninterruptibble casts in those several trees (Specifically looking at Deep leap, Chain slash and Whirlwind, alongside already present before blinks and I-Frames on armour slots and weapons).
          Jumping the recent "Buff Firemage" rhethoric I want to buff firewall In a way that allows these specific weapons and armor spells to still counter it, but not to a full extent (Soft counters), leaving the fire mage some additional way of keeping distance and zoning from people even with nowadays direct firewall counters.

          Proposed Solution: Add a square or oval aura with ~2-4m radius around the Fire wall that continuously slows everyone by ~10-20% (Residual slow after exiting the aura may be considered if a smaller aura size is chosen) inside for as long as it is active, in a similar fashion to how the Soulscythe's Tornado works.
      Axes:
      • Morgana raven (Carrioncaller)
        • To receive the same treatment as the Slit throat mentioned above (Separating debuffs by 2 diferent cleanse types, instead of only being removed by DoT cleanse), further putting emphasis on "soft counters" by increasing the amount of defensives that only work partially instead of hard-countering a spell.
      Druid Staves:
      • Soul bind (Iron Root)
        • Current targetting mechanics of the Soul bind are hardly to be called usable, as every time you cast your E twice onto the same ally or foe, you loose your current target.
          Related video showing how the current targetting mechanics work: Ironroot targetting issues, and a related bug report thread.

          2 Scenarios are depicted in the video:
          Casting the soul link on your ally, then onto yourself.
          Results: Pressing E once with a friendly target binds him with a soul link, pressing the E once more removes your target and changes the cursor targetting to hover, hovering the mouse over an ally and pressing E with no target binds the soul link only to one person.

          Casting the soul link onto yourself, then onto your ally.
          Results: Pressing Alt+E binds the soul link to yourself, further pressing E with a friendly target selected removes your target and changes the cursor targetting to hover, further pressing the corresponding party slot (F1 in this case) binds the soul link correctly.
          • Expected targetting behaviour:
            Pressing the E 2 times in a row onto a selected target should first apply the soul link to your target, then finish the soul link with the caster on the second button press.
            Pressing Alt+E 2 times in a row should first bind the soul link to yourself on the first click, then if a target is already selected should bind the soul link to that target on the second click, if no target is selected on the second click only then change mouse to hover targetting and allow selecting a target from the party list via hotkeys.

      The post was edited 11 times, last by Hattenhair: 11th layer of formatting hell ().

    • The_Support_God wrote:

      Good read but abit long. probaly should be segmented cause each of these items has their own problems to address
      My intent is to keep an archive of different reasoning, ideas and solutions. While not having any plans to segment into different posts, I will most likely be adding new info as replies to the original post, since there are a lot of ways a bullet point list can make your whole post slide sideways a-la microsoft docx style, hence the constant "layers of formatting hell" edits, hahah.
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      The_Support_God wrote:

      Good read but abit long. probaly should be segmented cause each of these items has their own problems to address
      My intent is to keep an archive of different reasoning, ideas and solutions. While not having any plans to segment into different posts, I will most likely be adding new info as replies to the original post, since there are a lot of ways a bullet point list can make your whole post slide sideways a-la microsoft docx style, hence the constant "layers of formatting hell" edits, hahah.
      ya, first u are right and reasoning is good

      But

      Why u think this will have any impact on game design??

      First, it is not on RT, second it is not the opinion of the devs and third there is no huge public pressure to do something..

      So basically you work for the waste Paper basket and some likes, which I happily press now..

      Take an example on the current patch notes fixing 1h mace.. current approach is to reduce CC duration by around 10%. What you write is Way to complex for the lazy approaches proposed there..

      That's why I claim, you waste your time for some likes..

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Trial_hard ().

    • Trial_hard wrote:

      ya, first u are right and reasoning is good
      ButWhy u think this will have any impact on game design??
      First, it is not on RT, second it is not the opinion of the devs and third there is no huge public pressure to do something..
      So basically you work for the waste Paper basket and some likes, which I happily press now..
      Take an example on the current patch notes fixing 1h mace.. current approach is to reduce CC duration by around 10%. What you write is Way to complex for the lazy approaches proposed there..
      That's why I claim, you waste your time for some likes..
      If I keep running this thread for long enough, something is bound to happen, I guess. Otherwise, in a worst case scenario, this will just provide the function of an archive like intended, and serve as an additional material source for people who wish to use this post as a foundation.
      Perhaps, I just have too much dedication.

      On a side note: I tried keeping the proposed changes without implementing new mechanics for the most part; Fixing something old to a mint condition is most of the time better than implementing something new, as it takes less time, effort, and does not drastically change the playstile of a specific weapon/skill.
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      Trial_hard wrote:

      ya, first u are right and reasoning is good
      ButWhy u think this will have any impact on game design??
      First, it is not on RT, second it is not the opinion of the devs and third there is no huge public pressure to do something..
      So basically you work for the waste Paper basket and some likes, which I happily press now..
      Take an example on the current patch notes fixing 1h mace.. current approach is to reduce CC duration by around 10%. What you write is Way to complex for the lazy approaches proposed there..
      That's why I claim, you waste your time for some likes..
      If I keep running this thread for long enough, something is bound to happen, I guess. Otherwise, in a worst case scenario, this will just provide the function of an archive like intended, and serve as an additional material source for people who wish to use this post as a foundation. Perhaps, I just have too much dedication.

      On a side note: I tried keeping the proposed changes without implementing new mechanics for the most part; Fixing something old to a mint condition is most of the time better than implementing something new, as it takes less time, effort, and does not drastically change the playstile of a specific weapon/skill.
      I disagree on this soft fixing..

      Look, if I be decision maker I ask some questions

      1) what is the issue - u answered this
      2) how much does it cost?
      3) how much more or less money do we earn if we do this, don't do this..

      And basically..based on 3) u just see mini changes to avoid the ..no balance shakeup pressure public discussion..
    • brother dont bite him too much.
      Have a break have a Kit Kat

      there has been cases where devs look at feedback and suggestions thread and made changes

      looks at hell gates and looks at CD meta (hallowfall/tombhammer and mace)

      uh... i takes like maybe 1-2 months for the changes to come but it will get there eventually
      Check out My new Albion Online Expansion idea 4 thread:
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/143592-Albion-Online-Expansion-Idea-4/
    • Trial_hard wrote:

      I disagree on this soft fixing..
      Look, if I be decision maker I ask some questions
      1) what is the issue - u answered this
      2) how much does it cost?
      3) how much more or less money do we earn if we do this, don't do this..

      And basically..based on 3) u just see mini changes to avoid the ..no balance shakeup pressure public discussion..
      I do not know the full extent of capabilities the dev team has and I do not know the financial situation of SBI, so without assumptions and based on my perceived experience - this kind of feedback is the best I can do. Despite the last 2 factors mentioned I will try to provide feedback that first tries to make something currently under/overrepresented work within the current meta/environment, only then changing the fundamentals of how that something work if the previous adjustments provide no effect.

      On "soft fixing": my train of thought goes somewhat like this:
      Underpowered skill (Fire wave is a good example) -> Buff said skill along the already present mechanics (Added damage to Fire wave if a Q DoT is active) -> If still underpowered, underrepresented, only usable in specific matchups - consider adding mechanics previously not present to said skill (This is where SBI dropped buffing Fire wave, yet I can make a comparison to my Fire wall suggestion, which is nowadays mostly invalidated by I-Frames, blinks, etc; heavily present in a variety of weapon lines; extending the duration of the wall or increasing the effective size/radius will not do any good against those counters and will only make it disproportionately overpowered in matchups which do not have those counters, as a result I proposed a soft counter to the currently hard counters as a reasonable alternative).

      You also have to keep in mind to not clutter the weapon trees with too much unique mechanics (especially on Q and W spells), as a result of this way of balancing. To keep the learning curve somewhat reasonable due to familiarity to general mechanics alongside different trees such as mobility, damage, utility and their combinations, reserving the unique spells akin to Soul Bind for E weapon slots.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Hattenhair ().

    • Retroman wrote:

      Daggers

      Deadly Swipe now consumes more energy when it is used purely for mobility, but it is now more energy efficient when it is used to fight another player. Currently Daggers Chain Slash has too much value making it in many situations the clear best choice, so we are reducing the damage output of it. Ontop we are overhauling Dash to ture it into a quick repositioning tool and damage buff, to make the playstyle more interesting. Forbidden Stab can now completely negate any healing and interrupts spell casting. With this new strong, but short debuff we want to put more emphasis on the timing of the ability activation.
      • Deadly Swipe (all Daggers)
        • Energycost: 6 -> 8
        • Energy Regain on hit: 2 -> 5
      • Dash (all Daggers)
        • Cooldown: Does not scale with IP anymore
        • Cooldown: 10s
        • Range: 8m -> 6m
        • Damage Increase Duration: 4s -> 2s
      • Forbidden Stab (all Daggers)
        • Hitdelay: 0.1s -> 0s
        • Standtime: 0.2s -> 0.1s
        • Removed the Healing Received and Healing Cast Debuff.
        • Instead the target won't be able to receive any healing for 1.5s. (this debuff is cleanseable)
        • The Abillity now also interrupts enemy spell casts.
      • Chain Slash (all Daggers)
        • Damager per hit: 120 -> 94

      Shameless bump for discussion.
    • imo for 5v5 content chain slash change is completely not needed.

      Daggers have low Q dmg compared to other melee lines, only thing going for them is fast attack speed that procs bleed passive, which doesnt mean its compensating for lack of Q dmg.

      Chain slash is the best choice because daggers are meant to be a burst weapon, you taking it away and providing no alternative wont push people to use different skill that offers no dmg

      dash changes super weird when you have shadow edge, 6m is literally nothing.


      1. Forbiden stab idk, would have to play with it, feels like 1.5 is not enough BUT in gvgs 5v5 for example, you can deny every druidic seed

      The post was edited 2 times, last by tabooshka ().

    • tabooshka wrote:

      imo for 5v5 content chain slash change is completely not needed.

      Daggers have low Q dmg compared to other melee lines, only thing going for them is fast attack speed that procs bleed passive, which doesnt mean its compensating for lack of Q dmg.

      Chain slash is the best choice because daggers are meant to be a burst weapon, you taking it away and providing no alternative wont push people to use different skill that offers no dmg

      dash changes super weird when you have shadow edge, 6m is literally nothing.

      Forbiden stab idk, would have to play with it, feels like 1.5 is not enough BUT in gvgs 5v5 for example, you can deny every druidic seed
      All Q's are fine:
      Sunder armor generates great pressure in environments below 5v5 like ava road skirmishes and specifically 2v2 HG's where you do not have the presence of a 5 man group to deter the dagger user from closing in too much.
      Deadly swipe is really good in any content starting from CRD's due to mobility and up to ZvZ's due to ability to get full stacks in a single cast. The main advantage of DS is that it generates AS stacks that boost damage by 6% each but without the 3.8% increased incoming damage, which also boosts AA damage and bleed damage as a result besides the ability damage, which is very huge for all the content inbetween. The only drawbacks being relatively high cooldown for a Q and some weird manacost mechanics, but I digress.
      Assassin spirit is self-explanatory: generate stacks out of air - pay for it with increased incoming damage. Pretty much essential for any get in-get out burst damage build. You dont really do pressure damage with this one.

      The CS's issue is that it was a dedicated damage W with daggers already boasting immense burst potential on E's. I am not denying that dagger's playstile is burst damage, but it made the burst potential so high that armor-stacking became useless to a degree and you either had zoning or I-frames left to counter it. From the 2v2 HG experience a lack of I-frames or a heavy defensive/direct counter against DP usually meant getting two-shotted or being forced into a very unfavourable scenario from which you usually don't recover before your cooldowns come up again.
      I think the CS nerf and other W buffs will make it less of a "Mash W after hitting E" braindead sequence, but rather "Disrupt with W's and utility, only then hit E in an unfortunate moment for the enemy".

      On Dash:
      6m looks like very little, yet combined with DS will look very frigntening mobility-wise. Roughly accounting for animation time you should get around 55m of generated distance per minute. The frequency at which you can dodge AoE's will also be unrivaled in small-scale fights.
      Although a 15s cooldown 10-12m dash would look much better for disengages.

      Forbidden stab getting an interrupt is sad news for literally any caster out there.
      I think that the 1.5s duration was settled on because of the interrupt entirely, so you could not negate 2 big holy Q's in a row (Under omelette big Q cooldown is ~1.8s).
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      From the 2v2 HG experience a lack of I-frames or a heavy defensive/direct counter against DP

      So Entire dagger line got nerfed because of dagger pair, nice logic

      "all qs are fine"

      well, clearly they arent fine since they dont offer enough dmg. Pretty sad they are becoming close to unplayable

      The post was edited 1 time, last by tabooshka ().

    • tabooshka wrote:

      So Entire dagger line got nerfed because of dagger pair, nice logic
      "all qs are fine"
      well, clearly they arent fine since they dont offer enough dmg. Pretty sad they are becoming close to unplayable
      You don't go adding severe burst damage W's to a weapon line that can nuke a cloth armor user down to 25% with a single damage buff and an E. The entire reason for this nerf is to prevent two-shots, obcene burst damage and pressure, the last of which daggers should not have in abundance.

      The Q's damage is indeed fine:



      Perhaps you could provide some calculations, instead of just going "My weapon tree is shit cause of a singular nerf"?
    • you just proved its worse than every Q

      deadly swipe math is even worse


      On top of a weapon that has many conditional Es and your stacks drop



      If you were any smart you would know you can one shot people with bridled fury because throwing blades are OP in larger fights, so the whole argument of chain slash is pretty retarded


      Furthermore
      You link axe and sword

      Axes have a skill on W that does more dmg than chain slash
      Impaler does more dmg than chain slash
      Sword root does more dmg than chain slash

      THATS BEFORE THE NERF, it already gets out performed by other weapons in terms of damage even E slot, only difference is full execute build with dmg bonus like dagger pair lmao

      The post was edited 2 times, last by tabooshka ().

    • @tabooshka
      Do I really have to respond to a troll that is oblivious to things other than raw damage?

      Sunder Armor - Armor shred for both you and your allies.
      Deadly Swipe - Damage bonus stacks, Mobility, Multiple stack generation in a single cast.
      Assassin Spirit - Generate stacks out of thin air, Damage bonus per stack, pay for it with increased incoming damage.

      Dash - Mobility and Damage boost, no direct damage.
      Forbidden stab - Dedicated anti-healer W, soon to be accompanied by an interrupt.
      Spinning blades - MS buff, Damage buff.
      Shadow edge - Hard CC, Mobility, I-frame, no direct damage.
      Chain slash - Mobility, I-Frame.

      All dagger E's are literally nukes in a nutshell, besides also boasting other utility:
      1h - MS buff, Powerful life-steal, pay for it with max hp drain.
      DP - Biggest solo target burst damage in the game, Cuts incoming healing by 20%.
      Claws - Channeled root (Pierces CC resistance) that Interrupts casts and Breaks shields.
      BL - Execute-style E, Mobility, Cooldown refresh of all abilities by 10s on a succesful hit below 40%.
      BH - Invalidates 80%+ of defensives in albion just by pressing a button, Purge, Pure damage, Stun, Knockback to combo into.
      DG - Mobility, Invisibility, Resets cooldown under the effects of 3 stacks.
      BF - The only AoE E in the dagger line, Mobility.

      Low damage on Q and W? Jokes on you having the ability to reposition 50 times a second and a way to dodge or boost damage in practically every skill.
    • Hattenhair wrote:

      @tabooshka
      Do I really have to respond to a troll that is oblivious to things other than raw damage?

      Sunder Armor - Armor shred for both you and your allies.
      Deadly Swipe - Damage bonus stacks, Mobility, Multiple stack generation in a single cast.
      Assassin Spirit - Generate stacks out of thin air, Damage bonus per stack, pay for it with increased incoming damage.

      Dash - Mobility and Damage boost, no direct damage.
      Forbidden stab - Dedicated anti-healer W, soon to be accompanied by an interrupt.
      Spinning blades - MS buff, Damage buff.
      Shadow edge - Hard CC, Mobility, I-frame, no direct damage.
      Chain slash - Mobility, I-Frame.

      All dagger E's are literally nukes in a nutshell, besides also boasting other utility:
      1h - MS buff, Powerful life-steal, pay for it with max hp drain.
      DP - Biggest solo target burst damage in the game, Cuts incoming healing by 20%.
      Claws - Channeled root (Pierces CC resistance) that Interrupts casts and Breaks shields.
      BL - Execute-style E, Mobility, Cooldown refresh of all abilities by 10s on a succesful hit below 40%.
      BH - Invalidates 80%+ of defensives in albion just by pressing a button, Purge, Pure damage, Stun, Knockback to combo into.
      DG - Mobility, Invisibility, Resets cooldown under the effects of 3 stacks.
      BF - The only AoE E in the dagger line, Mobility.

      Low damage on Q and W? Jokes on you having the ability to reposition 50 times a second and a way to dodge or boost damage in practically every skill.
      pretty clear you are clueless at this point

      news flash, other weapons have the same utility on their E, even Q and W, meanwhile chain slash is strictly used as dmg which can put you out of position, you can take out iframe, no one cares, keep dreaming though






      Deadly Swipe - Damage bonus stacks, Mobility, Multiple stack generation in a single cast.
      XD
      All those things are literally awful, using deadly swipe to stack you might as well do /suicide

      The post was edited 1 time, last by tabooshka ().

    • you do know other than blood letter other daggers play a one shot style build?

      Dual dagger high physical burst damage E which is easy to use
      1h dagger got stun and auto to death
      ect
      ect

      and most of the builds that accompany such dagger weapons hardly if all take damage when played properly

      it makes sense that Q and W has low damage or damage buffs to back load damage because that how daggers is balanced
      small hits then a win condition unlike other weapons where it is a hit until you are dead
      Check out My new Albion Online Expansion idea 4 thread:
      https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/143592-Albion-Online-Expansion-Idea-4/
    • tabooshka wrote:

      news flash, other weapons have the same utility on their E, even Q and W, meanwhile chain slash is strictly used as dmg which can put you out of position, you can take out iframe, no one cares, keep dreaming though
      "The amount and combination of different utility types has 0 effect on the playstile of a weapon tree and the simple fact of its presence is an appropriate equalizer" - local retard.

      Move along if your only argument is "Daggers are trash, I dont care".