Complains about current 5v5 n 10v10 hg system. Remove/rework infamy for 5v5 and 10v10.

    • Hellgates
    • Complains about current 5v5 n 10v10 hg system. Remove/rework infamy for 5v5 and 10v10.

      Hi!

      Comparing to half year ago hellgates are much better, BUT a few things are still very bad.

      1. Hg community outside the guilds/alliances was always toxic, but now its way worse because of current infamy and requirments for lethals.
      At one hand lethal requirments are good - no rats, but dying 4 times in a row to a top lvl crystal team who plays together for long time is not a fun - especially if you want to form a group to play frequently. Each time it costs you 300k-1000k silver for basic set. After 4 deaths in more expensive basic set its 4m silver lost. Demotivating.

      2. Second thing is the gap between non lethal players and lethal players. It's HUGE
      Reaching lethal players from 'i've played few non lethals and i see how it works' takes a long time, there's a lot of things you have to learn. How to position, when to kite, when to engage, what you should avoid and what not. Hardest thing for me was - or even still is - the communication with team. You need to at least find once good group and grind this stupid infamy so other lethal players even think about taking you.

      3.Third and last thing for today is again infamy - why am i punished for playing non lethals and losing my infamy (and the possibility to have better loot) with weaker players - who can benefit from my knowledge? People stopped playing with low skill people and the gap between us and non lethals is everyday bigger. (yes im still complaining about point 2)


      We need either new hg between non lethal and lethal (lethal with low requirment) or 100% rework/remove infamy system.

      Oh also the fame and loot in non lethal is bad. Why would i bother to play non lethals with low skill players if i reached lethal level and i'm able to win them...
    • Most sets should cost 400-800k except the melee dps on royal armor which can be 1.2m. 2-4m would imply that people need to run 8.1+ in gates and that's a vast minority of hellgators.

      There is definitely a large skill gap and barrier for new teams to learn how to gate well enough to break into lethals and I believe either replacing nonlethals or adding a new 4.1 version of 5s gate might help breach the skill gap and entry cost for people willing to either take on or teach newer players.

      Some form of rework to infamy elo may also be good as the current format encourages a cliquey stacking competetive mentality that discourage older players from taking on the teaching role people need.
    • I have to totally disagree. I see lots of bad good players on Yellows and really bad ppl on Reds. The gap is very small, and it's exaggerated in the head of players that want easy game.
      That's where all games are heading nowadays, to clickable novels without any challenge where everyone expects button "kill them all" that works 100% of time and after that big text on the screen "you are awesome" !! Otherwise kids cry or throw keyboard out and stop playing game.


      Trial_hard wrote:

      It is even worse..a set to compete is 2-4 Mio.. so 4 players ..that miss the healer take 10-16 Mio ..to educate / test / teach a new healer per run??
      You test set build and educate on non-lethals, that's what they're for, so you don't lose gear there, no one should cry about that. Old HGs were all lethal and it was fine. Now we have yellows so cry babies can also play and the level of challenge and sensation of danger keeps dropping in the game.


      decand wrote:

      Most sets should cost 400-800k except the melee dps on royal armor which can be 1.2m. 2-4m would imply that people need to run 8.1+ in gates and that's a vast minority of hellgators.
      Oh, this is another fallacy and crying that expensive gear that someone bought for $$ does not win a fight. That might be true in open world albion, but in HGs it's a team composition and you dont need expensive top meta gear to win if you have a decent team.
      Good skilled players are still worth more in this game than good gear, and lets hope it stays like this. It's something that makes this game stand out from the other MMOs.


      Razzbane wrote:

      but dying 4 times in a row to a top lvl crystal team who plays together for long time is not a fun - especially if you want to form a group to play frequently. Each time it costs you 300k-1000k silver for basic set.
      Matching groups with equal skills is hard :) Even low infamy players can be really good players, but you can't blame people for training and being more experienced. This is just sad. No one stops your from making your own group and training with them on yellows to be as good or playing crystals.
      I don't think game should penalize players for being just better at game, but it should encourage players like you to play more HGs by better rewards maybe, proportional to some fight performance maybe which infame is a proxy of right now.
    • Mashoo wrote:

      I have to totally disagree. I see lots of bad good players on Yellows and really bad ppl on Reds. The gap is very small, and it's exaggerated in the head of players that want easy game.
      That's where all games are heading nowadays, to clickable novels without any challenge where everyone expects button "kill them all" that works 100% of time and after that big text on the screen "you are awesome" !! Otherwise kids cry or throw keyboard out and stop playing game.


      Trial_hard wrote:

      It is even worse..a set to compete is 2-4 Mio.. so 4 players ..that miss the healer take 10-16 Mio ..to educate / test / teach a new healer per run??
      You test set build and educate on non-lethals, that's what they're for, so you don't lose gear there, no one should cry about that. Old HGs were all lethal and it was fine. Now we have yellows so cry babies can also play and the level of challenge and sensation of danger keeps dropping in the game.

      decand wrote:

      Most sets should cost 400-800k except the melee dps on royal armor which can be 1.2m. 2-4m would imply that people need to run 8.1+ in gates and that's a vast minority of hellgators.
      Oh, this is another fallacy and crying that expensive gear that someone bought for $$ does not win a fight. That might be true in open world albion, but in HGs it's a team composition and you dont need expensive top meta gear to win if you have a decent team.Good skilled players are still worth more in this game than good gear, and lets hope it stays like this. It's something that makes this game stand out from the other MMOs.


      Razzbane wrote:

      but dying 4 times in a row to a top lvl crystal team who plays together for long time is not a fun - especially if you want to form a group to play frequently. Each time it costs you 300k-1000k silver for basic set.
      Matching groups with equal skills is hard :) Even low infamy players can be really good players, but you can't blame people for training and being more experienced. This is just sad. No one stops your from making your own group and training with them on yellows to be as good or playing crystals.I don't think game should penalize players for being just better at game, but it should encourage players like you to play more HGs by better rewards maybe, proportional to some fight performance maybe which infame is a proxy of right now.
      You don't know what you are talking about. I won't comment it other than that - you are troll/attention seeker. 70% of non lethal players are doing basic mistakes like clumping together.
      P.S. non lethal hellgates (yellows) existed even before albion release, its at least 4 years in AO history.
      Troll post.
    • Razzbane wrote:

      You don't know what you are talking about. I won't comment it other than that - you are troll/attention seeker. 70% of non lethal players are doing basic mistakes like clumping together.P.S. non lethal hellgates (yellows) existed even before albion release, its at least 4 years in AO history
      Troll post.
      Calling someone "troll" you don't agree with is not a discussion or any argument.

      For me HGs are better CDs. I don't think IP requirement should be any different from CD.
      Higher IP usually means better reward for the winning team.
      I don't agree with lowering this cap, because main reward is loot from enemies, and that would make HGs even less valuable to attend to.
      Chest loot is shitty as is already. So if anything IP cap should be higher, or if it gets lower rewards from chests should be increased way more to compensate for that.

      Compare it to 20v20 crystals. It takes effort and time to organize 20 ppl to join crystal, at very fixed timer during gate. HGs10v10 require less players and can be played any time, so in theory easier to organize.
      But for the very same fact they can be played any time, means that there are fewer groups at the same time point playing and match is way more difficult.
      Furthermore, for crystals you dont need to leave the city shortening time needed for encounter, and making it more attractive.

      These are things worth considering, not to break popularity of crystals, while boosting HG10v10 attendance. Lowering IP cap and only mildly boosting chest rewards, would make the situation equal to what it is and I really doubt it would increase the number of players attending HGs. Any IP cap changes would require rather heavy boosts to rewards.
    • i agree but i dont think removing infamy will fix anything lmao.

      biggest issue in current HGs imo is that there is no mid-level between nonlethal HG's (where you either fight newbies or trolls running all greataxe) and lethal HG (established competitive teams going for loot to finance their lvl 4+ crystals) and there is little to no incentive for new people to try and make teams for training in both modes under those conditions.
      in my case i had a little 10man group going for daily lethal 10v10s post 03 UTC. we learned the current meta, strats and other stuff.
      so first we went for nonlethal 10s. we never fought another team in that mode. ez 7-8 hours wasted in a week with no fame, loot or pvp experience.
      then we went for lethal 10s. first we spent like 6 or 7 runs without a fight. quite ez loot and fairly nice fame. everyone recovered their set cost + could afford another 3 deaths with it. we obviously left to sell the loot and came back shortly after.
      we got in again and met another 10s team. it was some 1b fame guys from Conflict and other guilds.
      it was our very first fight from a week running daily 10s.
      tried our best, managed to kill maybe one or two, then we lost because we didnt use correctly our defensives and energy.
      then we got again after a short break watching the vid of our fight looking for mistakes.
      3 free runs and we bank again. came back and we got into another fight. its the same guys from before.
      we got wiped again from a mix of energy drain + a shitty choke we got into mid-fight. mistakes happen in a noobish team. we couldnt kill anyone this time tho
      called it a day and returned to our guild CTAs for the night.

      next day we do 4-5 runs, then we encounter a 10s rat team from surf. a mix of great axes and frost with leather cape. cant possibly call this a fight but they knew their stuff as they got 0-100 fast after our first engage. they still died afterwards and we had no losses from our part. two more runs and we go bank. back to our CTAs.

      its like this for the next 2-3 days. we only meet rat teams.
      then the day afterwards we go in. first run first fight of the day. its a team from HC wearing reset cd. all of them. we didnt get what tf was going on and we lost from getting CCed into oblivion. no amount of mercenary helmets and purges could save us. lack of experience played a big part in this fight. we take a break and watch the vid. we change our sets and two roles. then we go again.
      we run into them after the first dungeon. we manage to last longer this time and even kill one of them. sadly we get outdpsed as we lacked more pierces and a support.
      we try again after fixing our team comp. we run into this guy who is rumoured to have a 900-0 winstreak on hgs and some top cgvg players we knew by name from replays we studied. we get absolutely demolished. i still have the replay. i literally dont know whats happening when i watch it. we are about to engage a clamp and half a second after 4 of our dps are dead. no reflect or stuff. might as well blame our 180 ping vs top cgvg NA players.
      this fight was such a turnoff we havent tried playing 10s again, not even for the juicy loot (for us).

      apart from fixing our comp, i cant really tell if we learned something. we either fought rat teams or people who have been playing HGs for two years or more. cant even compare.

      its not that the learning curve is too steep. There is no learning curve at all. it feels like you either played HGs since day one or you completely missed the train. maybe win the lottery and get babysitted by one of these teams. but theres no workaround to this.
      sure you could have your average 5s/10s team and win against other similar skill teams. but once you encounter the cgvg guys who never lose, are majority of the HGs population and are in for the loot+to heat their fingers you might as well go play something else. There is no in-between this. we either play against the people we see in our study material vids or casual/random/rat teams we stomp and dont learn anything from.

      We are trying to have scrims with other semicomp teams but im not so optimistic as it seems they dont even exist.
    • Baurel wrote:

      i agree but i dont think removing infamy will fix anything lmao.

      ...



      apart from fixing our comp, i cant really tell if we learned something. we either fought rat teams or people who have been playing HGs for two years or more. cant even compare.

      ...
      Infamy is not helping at all, finding random people for teams is hard. Training them is bad too, cause as i said you are getting punished if you keep losing.

      I'm not pro, but i can come watch and try to advise a bit.

      P.S. i have similar experience from 10s. 5s are different - almost no rat teams. Bad teams (the learning people) are super scarce.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Razzbane ().

    • Honestly making it t6 entry, 50% ip scaling, and lowering rewards some might do 10s some good. It's advertised as end game activity but there aren't enough end game players that are out there to populate the content. Sbi should accept that the game is filled with people with weak econ that aren't used to risking 500k sets.
    • decand wrote:

      Honestly making it t6 entry, 50% ip scaling, and lowering rewards some might do 10s some good. It's advertised as end game activity but there aren't enough end game players that are out there to populate the content. Sbi should accept that the game is filled with people with weak econ that aren't used to risking 500k sets.
      i mean, how are you supposed to train? in non lethals with bad rewards? thats fun if you don't care about your fame/silver. Its a bit sad for people like me who try to play only 5v5 n 10 v 10 content recently.

      P.S. im finding the rest of the game quite boring at this moment. Sorry i'm just pure pvper.
    • Razzbane wrote:

      decand wrote:

      Honestly making it t6 entry, 50% ip scaling, and lowering rewards some might do 10s some good. It's advertised as end game activity but there aren't enough end game players that are out there to populate the content. Sbi should accept that the game is filled with people with weak econ that aren't used to risking 500k sets.
      i mean, how are you supposed to train? in non lethals with bad rewards? thats fun if you don't care about your fame/silver. Its a bit sad for people like me who try to play only 5v5 n 10 v 10 content recently.
      P.S. im finding the rest of the game quite boring at this moment. Sorry i'm just pure pvper.
      lethal with low ip cap also sucks :D
      take HG x2 as a example.
    • The main problem is usually pro crystal players end up forming team that stomps the low amount of players trying these which leads to pve gates.No fights=no fun.I agree ip cap needs to be lowered.The rewards can stay as they are.But if cost of dying is 200k instead 500-800k that will bring much more players.In any case the reason i quit playing was because devs still can't bring enough players to this content with the desicions they are making.I don't care what it is just make it work.This was my favorite content and it doesn't really work atm.