How the transaction taxes PROHIBIT Hideout economy

    • Economy
    • How the transaction taxes PROHIBIT Hideout economy

      Transaction taxes are highly destructive, the consensus among economists is unanimous from left to right.

      Let's say I want to make money transporting a good. I buy the good for 100% of its cost, I sell it at 110%. The transaction tax is 5%.
      Did I pay 5%? No, I actually paid 50% of the profit in taxes.
      It takes a small amount of percentage transaction taxation to wipe out all economic activity.

      Imagine gathering, then putting the item for sale and have 5% of its value go to a sink. Then someone buys it, refines it, then again, 5% of the value to the sink, then someone picks it up, crafts a weapon, another 5% taxation. That's around 15% tax to put the final good for sale. But think further, that's not what an economy is supposed to be only about. What about transporting the goods between hideouts? That initial 5% tax would hit twice. Maybe after refinement, that too could hit twice if we want to transport. What would the final tax of a single item be? The answer: too high to ever happen. No one is going to do it, the economy in hideouts is non-existent thanks to it.



      As if it wasn't enough that in the city there are armies of alts farming crafting focus; In the city people just dodge the whole transaction tax!!
      The density of players is high enough that you can organize trading through discord and direct trade and throw ZERO at the silver sink!! Much of the t8+ trade is done that way. No one is going to be pay 100k in silver at every 2 million worth of goods flipped.

      In HOs the density of players is low, you can't just sit there waiting for people to buy your goods through discord.
      There's no point of sweating making things in HO when there are armies of players dodging multiple rounds of transaction taxes in the city.
      Because the items in the city as so efficiently made and cheaper, players just transport their items to their own chests individually, and because they do that and nobody would be willing to buy gear 30% more expensive, then the raw materials as well aren't purchased so you transport them to the city as well. The entire HO economy is killed that way.

      REMOVE ALL TRANSACTION TAXES IN HIDEOUTS, LET PLAYERS TRADE, LET PEOPLE TRANSPORT STUFF FOR A 1% DIFFERENCE IN GOOD VALUE IF THEY WANT
    • hhiho wrote:

      Let's say I want to make money transporting a good. I buy the good for 100% of its cost, I sell it at 110%. The transaction tax is 5%.

      Did I pay 5%? No, I actually paid 50% of the profit in taxes.
      You pay 5% of the item value but 50% of the profit. There is no thing that is not true. It is both 5% and 50%, depends on the context...

      The market tax is needed to stop hyperinflation.

      I believe market tax is the one that takes out most of the silvers from the game... (maybe buying premium and skins with gold/silver can be close...)

      If they remove the tax, after a month you realize that the t4 poison cost 5k silvers and GL to anyone who just started the game.
      Deathskills says 150m silvers is too much for 84-112 hours of active gameplay out of 168 hours a week has. Does not answer how much a ganker does under that time. This player is a joke.
    • hhiho wrote:

      The density of players is high enough that you can organize trading through discord and direct trade and throw ZERO at the silver sink!! Much of the t8+ trade is done that way. No one is going to be pay 100k in silver at every 2 million worth of goods flipped.
      You said it yourself, you can just use the player to player trade to have no tax and problem solved?
    • Argustin wrote:

      hhiho wrote:

      The density of players is high enough that you can organize trading through discord and direct trade and throw ZERO at the silver sink!! Much of the t8+ trade is done that way. No one is going to be pay 100k in silver at every 2 million worth of goods flipped.
      You said it yourself, you can just use the player to player trade to have no tax and problem solved?
      Can't do that in a small hideout because there's not enough density of players to just PM someone and get the item you want. Only in the city the taxes can be fully avoided.

      It's such a silly thing how taxes are both highly destructive but at the same time 100% avoidable in one place. Just remove it all together.


      Zynthia wrote:

      this is such an american thing to complain about, also with no taxes stealing "profits" there wouldnt be any silver bag or silver drops from mobs,
      50% of items break when you die. Items are constantly losing silver when you fall down. There are map taxes now. The game is literally filled with silver sinks.
    • The Game Needs Silver sinks and as a player that makes 25% of my in game income from transporting goods from town to town I can say the tax is not the bad. if you are failing to make money because of the small sales tax you should rethink how you are doing things.

      Zynthia wrote:

      this is such an american thing to complain about, also with no taxes stealing "profits" there wouldnt be any silver bag or silver drops from mobs,
      Please don't confuse the American's that are unhappy with Income tax, with sales tax's. Sales tax is liked and many Americans would like our current income tax system (Which implies a right to a persons labor, and that is wrong. read history if you don't see why.) A flat federal sales tax would be a better system because then the government is dependent on the peoples prosperity.
    • OVTSIDER wrote:

      Now imagine that you have to pay 25% of VAT in Norway when you buy anything (except food - 15%)
      That would save me money. I pay 37% to the fed in income taxes plus 4.6 % sales tax and I used to have to pay a 11.3% income tax to my former state.... Any tax that is imposed for simply working has a negative impacted to the working class. their is no easy answer to how a tax system should work. but as far as games go, Albion has a pretty simple and fair tax system. plus once you have premium the tax is even cheaper. (unlike the real world games have unlimited resources so its a lot easer to balance this type of thing.)
    • the market tax is there to avoid 1 stupid situation which will be very costly to the game

      it is called permanent market control

      imagine there is no tax ok?

      what is stopping people from butting sell order of 101 silver and buy order of 100 silver

      everyone will be forced to buy at 101 silver and sell at 100 silver to that guy alone
      unless of course you can make that guy run out of money first but there are items in the game which rely on one another like refined materials and market manipulation of that scale would be harmful

      but as you all know in this game there are some limited stuffs so the tax is there to stop people from buying out everything under a certain price then reposting it for higher since there is no tax you in theory would me making infinite money

      hence hyperinflaton
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    • hhiho wrote:

      Argustin wrote:

      hhiho wrote:

      The density of players is high enough that you can organize trading through discord and direct trade and throw ZERO at the silver sink!! Much of the t8+ trade is done that way. No one is going to be pay 100k in silver at every 2 million worth of goods flipped.
      You said it yourself, you can just use the player to player trade to have no tax and problem solved?
      Can't do that in a small hideout because there's not enough density of players to just PM someone and get the item you want. Only in the city the taxes can be fully avoided.
      It's such a silly thing how taxes are both highly destructive but at the same time 100% avoidable in one place. Just remove it all together.


      Zynthia wrote:

      this is such an american thing to complain about, also with no taxes stealing "profits" there wouldnt be any silver bag or silver drops from mobs,
      50% of items break when you die. Items are constantly losing silver when you fall down. There are map taxes now. The game is literally filled with silver sinks.
      not nearly enough silver sinks exists, and with the current refining meta gear is dirt cheap.
    • The_Support_God wrote:

      the market tax is there to avoid 1 stupid situation which will be very costly to the game

      it is called permanent market control

      imagine there is no tax ok?

      what is stopping people from butting sell order of 101 silver and buy order of 100 silver

      everyone will be forced to buy at 101 silver and sell at 100 silver to that guy alone
      unless of course you can make that guy run out of money first but there are items in the game which rely on one another like refined materials and market manipulation of that scale would be harmful

      but as you all know in this game there are some limited stuffs so the tax is there to stop people from buying out everything under a certain price then reposting it for higher since there is no tax you in theory would me making infinite money

      hence hyperinflaton
      You're wrong. I've played games with no transaction tax and this has never been an issue.
      What you're describing would be akin to putting your feet inside a bag, then grabbing the bag and lifting yourself in the air.
      Let's assume you have enough money to single handedly buy a product into having a higher price, how do you cash-in? You dump all your demand and sell it. But by dumping the product on the market you're crashing with the price of what you want to sell.

      By artificially increasing supply, the in-game market, the players, will produce more of that item. They'll try to satisfy the artificial demand you're creating, and eventually this price will burst down because all those items aren't going to use, they're going to your storage, and you plan on opening the floodgates eventually. So who's holding the hot potato? It's you. Hundreds of players will gather that resource and normalize the artificial demand you created. And if you decide to just keep a large stock of items and only sell them when the price starts to rise up, then you're just a speculator benefitting the market and reducing price spikes, allowing the players to enjoy stable prices without having to buy at certain times of the day, and not a malicious actor.

      Entire game economics have functioned with no such tax for decades. People always make the same claim you make, even though you have no basis. Who produces more, 1 person or 50 people? What if 1 person decides to use his stockpile of money to artificially increase the demand? Will 49 people be unable to produce more silver than 1 guy in this micro economy of 50 people? Nope. You're gonna have a stockpile of non-liquid assets and you're going to sweat trying to sell them without a loss. Try going to a game with no transaction tax like ragnarok online and try to monopolize a consumable item or something, not gonna work. It's a boogieman, everyone says this can be done, no one has ever done it.

      You're also wrong on hyperinflation; the amount of currency in circulation is controlled by the devs.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by hhiho ().

    • Time for a good old point by point analysis...

      Let's say I want to make money transporting a good. I buy the good for
      100% of its cost, I sell it at 110%. The transaction tax is 5%.

      Did I pay 5%? No, I actually paid 50% of the profit in taxes.

      It takes a small amount of percentage transaction taxation to wipe out all economic activity.

      This is called a profit margin.
      Either you are paying 3% if you are a premium player, or 6% if you are not, there is no tax of 5%.
      You can either sell the good directly to another players buy order, or set up a sell order yourself, for an additional 1.5% fee.

      These cost should always be considered when doing any sort of market flipping.

      Imagine gathering, then putting the item for sale and have 5% of its value go to a sink. Then someone buys it, refines it, then again, 5% of the value to the sink, then someone picks it up, crafts a weapon, another 5% taxation. That's around 15% tax to put the final good for sale. But think further, that's not what an economy is supposed to be only about. What about transporting the goods between hideouts? That initial 5% tax would hit twice. Maybe after refinement, that too could hit twice if we want to transport. What would the final tax of a single item be? The answer: too high to ever happen. No one is going to do it, the economy in hideouts is non-existent thanks to it.


      The problem with Hideout economies isn't the taxation rate, it is that they have two problems, low security, and low throughput of customers.

      As security goes, any given hideout isn't necessarily going to be there next week, so what incentive do people have to place their items for sale in a hideout?

      For low throughput, it is the same reason that guild markets tend to be empty as well with the exception of a few items. Most have restricted access. They have to compete with the city and rest markets. It is far easier to find a buyer or seller in a market that has a much higher throughput, as there is little to no restriction to the players that have access to them.

      As if it wasn't enough that in the city there are armies of alts farming crafting focus;

      Yes, and? What dose that have to do with Hideout Economics, you could just as easily create a crafting alt to park in your hideout...

      In the city people just dodge the whole transaction tax!!

      The density of players is high enough that you can organize trading
      through discord and direct trade and throw ZERO at the silver sink!!
      Much of the t8+ trade is done that way. No one is going to be pay 100k
      in silver at every 2 million worth of goods flipped.

      Yes, but you have to broker the deals first, which takes time, and effort.
      You can either put it on the market, and wait, sell directly to a buy order, or find a buyer yourself.

      In HOs the density of players is low, you can't just sit there waiting for people to buy your goods through discord.

      Yes you can, you just don't want to...
      Not that I can blame you for that.

      There's no point of sweating making things in HO when there are armies
      of players dodging multiple rounds of transaction taxes in the city.

      Because the items in the city as so efficiently made and cheaper,
      players just transport their items to their own chests individually, and
      because they do that and nobody would be willing to buy gear 30% more
      expensive, then the raw materials as well aren't purchased so you
      transport them to the city as well. The entire HO economy is killed that
      way.

      So, you are over pricing things, and not finding any buyers, where there was already a limited pool of them to begin with..?
      I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you...

      50% of items break when you die. Items are constantly losing silver when you fall down. There are map taxes now. The game is literally filled with silver sinks.

      It is 30% trash rate not 50%. This is to make it so that there is demand for new items to be crafted, as opposed to the same ones circulating constantly.
      Item durability, not silver. Boils down to the same difference really, so this is just a nitpick.
      Castle Taxes go to the castle owner. They are not removed from the game.

      What you're describing would be akin to putting your feet inside a bag, then grabbing the bag and lifting yourself in the air.
      Let's assume you have enough money to single handedly buy a product into
      having a higher price, how do you cash-in? You dump all your demand and
      sell it. But by dumping the product on the market you're crashing with
      the price of what you want to sell.

      If there is no taxation and no fees, there is nothing stopping someone from readjusting their buy/sell orders until they find the price-point where they can lock-down an item, as such that, all items sold would be sold to them, and all items bought would be bought from them.

      As someone who has participated in market manipulation in this game, I can tell you it is pretty easy.
      All you have to do is maintain some sort of profit margin and a decent throughput of items, and oh you just made it ever so easy, 1 silver per item will do.
      Buy at 100, sell at 101. Over and over and over.

      By artificially increasing supply, the in-game market, the players, will
      produce more of that item. They'll try to satisfy the artificial demand
      you're creating, and eventually this price will burst down because all
      those items aren't going to use, they're going to your storage, and you
      plan on opening the floodgates eventually. So who's holding the hot
      potato? It's you. Hundreds of players will gather that resource and
      normalize the artificial demand you created.

      The player-base still has only so much capacity to fill any given order, and if the price can be driven low enough you will almost always find buyers.

      And if you decide to just keep a large stock of items and only sell them when the price starts to rise up,

      then you're just a speculator benefitting the market and
      reducing price spikes, allowing the players to enjoy stable prices
      without having to buy at certain times of the day, and not a malicious actor.

      Market speculation is done for the benefit of the speculator, not the market.
      You generally want to sell when there is a pricing spike, not make an effort to reduce them.

      You're wrong. I've played games with no transaction tax and this has never been an issue.
      Entire game economics have functioned with no such tax for decades.

      Other games use other economic systems. Most other games allow players to sell items directly to vendors. There are no such vendors in Albion Online.
      All trading of resources in Albion take place through a market or via making a trade deal yourself.

      Both major MMOs EvE Online (2003), and World of Warcraft (2004) have taxed player marketplaces.

      People always make the same claim you make, even though you have no
      basis. Who produces more, 1 person or 50 people? What if 1 person
      decides to use his stockpile of money to artificially increase the
      demand? Will 49 people be unable to produce more silver than 1 guy in
      this micro economy of 50 people? Nope. You're gonna have a stockpile of
      non-liquid assets and you're going to sweat trying to sell them without a
      loss. Try going to a game with no transaction tax like ragnarok online
      and try to monopolize a consumable item or something, not gonna work.
      It's a boogieman, everyone says this can be done, no one has ever done
      it.

      It's not a matter of who produces more, if you have the capital you can purchase ALL the things produced by those 50 people, then turn around and sell them.
      You point is flawed, because it isn't just these 50 people. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing the game on a daily basis.

      Ragnarok Online uses a different economic system, that allows players to create their own shops, and it is a PAIN in the ass to navigate.

      You're also wrong on hyperinflation; the amount of currency in circulation is controlled by the devs.

      This is simply, PROFOUNDLY, untrue.

      The devs have no control other than adjusting the rates of the silver sinks (taxes, repairs, islands) and silver outputs (mobs, silver bags), they have no way to control silver that has already been produced, and is thus in circulation.

      By removing one of the major silver sinks more silver would be in circulation.
      Any removal of silver sinks, without balancing it by removal of silver outputs, results in increased inflation.

      (TLDR) Hideout Markets aren't nonviable because of taxes, like @hhiho insists, but low player access to their markets.
      Guild Master of American Craftsman
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      The post was edited 2 times, last by RenKatal: Formatting, and spelling ().

    • >the problem with the hideout is the low player throughout put, making them more dependable on the market npc
      >you can sell to players to dodge the taxes
      >this can be done more in the city than in hideouts
      My thoughts exactly. I just don't know why you wrote all of this down as if you were writing a rebuttal.




      RenKatal wrote:

      (TLDR) Hideout Markets aren't nonviable because of taxes, like @hhiho insists, but low player access to their markets.
      This is a wrong point. I ask you a simple question: how come you can find stores in the real world, in the middle of nowhere, filled with goods? You can kinda tell that they aren't really selling their whole stock every day, and yet, they have everything! Stores for traveling cars in the middle of nowhere, filled with the types of foods that last long, material goods for traveling and such, how do they do that?

      Of course, the low amount of customers doesn't make the stuffing of the shelves impossible. If the goods last forever, then it's just a matter of laying the capital down! Now lets look back at albion online, guilds have millions in silver, they want their hideouts to work. Why aren't zvz guilds setting up buy orders to buy all goods in the game and then selling them for 1 extra silver at the market? Guilds in theory could just create the demand AND the supply for every item in the game and it would just be a matter of setting the capital down. Doesn't matter that x weapon won't be sold instantly, you can leave it there until someone buys it, the weapon won't rotten. Why don't they do that? Transaction taxes. Can't be gobbling up a 5% loss at every transaction.


      RenKatal wrote:

      Either you are paying 3% if you are a premium player, or 6% if you are not, there is no tax of 5%.

      You can either sell the good directly to another players buy order, or set up a sell order yourself, for an additional 1.5% fee.
      There's one wrong point you made here, the 1.5% fee isn't optional. Someone will be paying it at any transaction. It's it's really a 4.5% transaction tax, which I round up to 5% for simplicity.



      RenKatal wrote:



      Ragnarok Online uses a different economic system, that allows players to create their own shops, and it is a PAIN in the ass to navigate
      That is irrelevant. The point is that such manipulation does not occur, and cannot occur, and it hasn't occurred in the many many MMOs with free trade, and economists don't even think it can be done in the real world.

      RenKatal wrote:



      It's not a matter of who produces more, if you have the capital you can purchase ALL the things produced by those 50 people, then turn around and sell them.
      You point is flawed, because it isn't just these 50 people. There are hundreds of thousands of people playing the game on a daily basis.
      First of all, it is a matter of who produces more because your capital would have to buy the capital of 50 people. Second of all, the fact that it is NOT a mere 50 people economy only strengthens my point. I would like to point out your ignorance here; that's not a monopoly. Once you're done buying stuff, people will continue producing. You spent money and didn't achieve any form of monopoly because in the game the resources are gathered by random people all around the game's world. This masterplan is to buy high and sell higher; stupid, flawed plan, that will end up with you having a large stock of goods you're afraid of selling because you'd lose money. As I said previously, try doing that in any game before ignorantly repeating that it can be done with zero factual basis.
    • RenKatal wrote:

      Both major MMOs EvE Online (2003), and World of Warcraft (2004) have taxed player marketplaces.
      First of all, World of Warcraft is an on-rails PVE experience where trading is nearly irrelevant. And remind the reader that you said that I can't use Ragnarok as an example because of how different it is.

      Secondly, EvE has the exact same problems as Albion, due to transaction tax. Two jumps from Jita and you already can't find ammunition, it's insane. Goods aren't being distributed in EvE anymore, it's the empire trade hubs where guilds dodge transaction taxers, and that's it.




      RenKatal wrote:

      As someone who has participated in market manipulation in this game, I can tell you it is pretty easy.

      All you have to do is maintain some sort of profit margin and a decent throughput of items, and oh you just made it ever so easy, 1 silver per item will do.
      Buy at 100, sell at 101. Over and over and over.
      As someone who listened to this same bullshit lie a million times, I'm very interested. Can you enlighten me? What type of market manipulation did you participate in? Either you were a beneficial speculator, or, what happens more often in this tale, it's 100% bullshit.

      You bought items to sell them at a 1% profit? So you stacked up items so the players could buy them more efficiently? And you got a 1 silver profit? Was that it? I want to know all the market manipulation you did in Albion online. This is utterly relevant to the discussion and obviously if true more relevant than anything else. Enlighten me.
    • hhiho wrote:

      My thoughts exactly. I just don't know why you wrote all of this down as if you were writing a rebuttal.
      I never said i was rebutting all your points, I said I was doing a point by point analysis. I only rebutted you when your information was incorrect.

      hhiho wrote:

      This is a wrong point. I ask you a simple question: how come you can find stores in the real world, in the middle of nowhere, filled with goods? You can kinda tell that they aren't really selling their whole stock every day, and yet, they have everything! Stores for traveling cars in the middle of nowhere, filled with the types of foods that last long, material goods for traveling and such, how do they do that?

      Of course, the low amount of customers doesn't make the stuffing of the shelves impossible. If the goods last forever, then it's just a matter of laying the capital down!
      This real world analogy fails to take into account that the world of Albion is small and relatively easy to traverse, and your question is tangential to your original point, but I will humor you.

      As I do not know your nation of origin @hhiho, I will have to make assumptions based upon mine.
      The closest thing that I can think of from your description is a rural fueling station. As I have been to several, and spent several years in retail, both in distribution and sales, I will base my explanation off of that.

      Fuel stations come in one of two varieties, corporately owned or independently owned.
      For any corporately owned rural store they have distributions centers that will distribute goods to them, along with vendors that will deliver to the location. This allows them access to a larger supply of goods. You can think of this as Hideouts controlled by large coalitions and/or alliances in more remote zones. They have the ability to supply those Hideout markets if they so wish.

      Independently owned stations, are another story all together, they tend to run on tighter margins, and thus cannot afford the risk of stocking product that will not move. They tend to stock what they know will sell, either to locals or travelers, and are more conservative with the amount of product they order, to reduce loss to expiry.
      They do not "stuff the shelves". Think of this as Hideouts belonging to Solo guilds and small alliances.

      The key thing you are missing in either case, is that, in most cases of rural fuel stations people are FORCED to shop at the location, due to the nonavailability of any sort of alternative. If your car is running low on gas, in the middle of a desert, you are going to stop for fuel.

      Players in Albion have no such limitations. They are not forced to go to any given market.
      However, they may or may not even be able to access the market in any given Hideout.

      Anyone can walk in and purchase from a fuel station.

      hhiho wrote:

      There's one wrong point you made here, the 1.5% fee isn't optional. Someone will be paying it at any transaction. It's it's really a 4.5% transaction tax, which I round up to 5% for simplicity.
      First, you should never round when it comes to any form of accounting, until you have a final value. It is a bad practice, and leads to rounding errors.

      Second, I was going off your original example of you flipping items:

      Let's say I want to make money transporting a good. I buy the good for
      100% of its cost, I sell it at 110%. The transaction tax is 5%.

      Did I pay 5%? No, I actually paid 50% of the profit in taxes.

      It takes a small amount of percentage transaction taxation to wipe out all economic activity.


      In this example you place no emphasis on the person you bought from, or whether it was a buy order or not, you simply placed the value of the purchased good at 100%.

      The 1.5% fee is only applicable if you are placing buy and/or sell orders, not when directly purchasing from, or selling to orders. Thus why I consider it optional in my calculation.
      If you sold it in a sell order your profit margin would be 5.5% and if you sold it directly to a buy order for the same price your margin would be 7%. Assuming you have premium.
      Guild Master of American Craftsman
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      T8 Quarrier, Miner, Lumberjack, Skinner, Harvester, Fisher
    • hhiho wrote:

      That is irrelevant. The point is that such manipulation does not occur, and cannot occur, and it hasn't occurred in the many many MMOs with free trade, and economists don't even think it can be done in the real world.
      This, in regards to your own comparison, to the market systems of other games, using Ragnarok Online as an example. They implement a taxed auction house system that fell out of favor due to an already preestablished player shop system.

      Ragnarok Online suffers from a problem of massive inflation due to the fact that there are no Zeny sinks.


      hhiho wrote:

      As someone who listened to this same bullshit lie a million times, I'm very interested. Can you enlighten me? What type of market manipulation did you participate in? Either you were a beneficial speculator, or, what happens more often in this tale, it's 100% bullshit.

      You bought items to sell them at a 1% profit? So you stacked up items so the players could buy them more efficiently? And you got a 1 silver profit? Was that it? I want to know all the market manipulation you did in Albion online. This is utterly relevant to the discussion and obviously if true more relevant than anything else. Enlighten me.
      I participate in price fixing on items in singular markets, sometimes raising the price, sometimes lowering it, by keeping a tight margin between buy and sell orders, with enough of a profit margin that it makes me a decent amount of silver roughly between 3 to 20% depending on the item. On top of that I craft the items that I control so that if anyone creates a higher buy order I simply fill the order myself. I also gather and refine my own materials for the crafting, thus reducing my initial investment.

      My money isn't made from a single sale, but the repetition of the process.

      The removal of any sort of fee or tax would simply make it so I could put the buy and sell orders closer in price, thus further solidifying the control I would have on the prices.

      What I am doing isn't intended to be beneficial to anyone but myself, if any outside party dose so benefit, it isn't an intended result.
      My intent is that people buy from me and sell to me, thus I am the one making money off the item.

      This makes up about a third of my income.
      Guild Master of American Craftsman
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      T8 Quarrier, Miner, Lumberjack, Skinner, Harvester, Fisher
    • Most of your reply is tangential and irrelevant. Not worth fully replying. Who cares about the types of fueling stations? The point is that with enough capital grocery stores and any type of store can have a wide variety of good available and having "only" 50-100 members in the hideout isn't why there aren't any goods for buying and selling there. Did you understand that? Yes? Ok, I hope we're on the same page now, the reason why guilds aren't putting the capital to maintain a stock at hideout markets isn't because of low trade volume.


      >I participate in price fixing on items in singular markets, sometimes raising the price, sometimes lowering it, by keeping a tight margin between buy and sell orders

      You're making money on the time preference of the market. You're buying something quick that someone would want to sell quick, and in exchange you're the ne laying the money down and waiting while the player can just cash in. This isn't market manipulation.

      >On top of that I craft the items that I control so that if anyone creates a higher buy order I simply fill the order myself.

      That's called selling an item.

      >The removal of any sort of fee or tax would simply make it so I could put the buy and sell orders closer in price, thus further solidifying the control I would have on the prices.

      The removal of buying and selling order taxes would mean you'd be fighting 20 speculators at any attempt at moving a price of any good and prices would be more stable. So you're saying you buy items when they're in low demand and you sell them when they're in high demand. That's not a monopoly. That's not a malevolent market manipulation. That's not a scam, and on top of that can even be seen as a service to the market. Not to mention that none of that applies to a private guild hideout. Why does a small private guild needs a tax on their own NPC?

      The post was edited 4 times, last by hhiho ().

    • hhiho wrote:

      Most of your reply is tangential and irrelevant.
      You asked the question. I answered it.

      hhiho wrote:

      The point is that with enough capital grocery stores and any type of store can have a wide variety of good available and having "only" 50-100 members in the hideout isn't why there aren't any goods for buying and selling there. Did you understand that? Yes? Ok, I hope we're on the same page now, the reason why guilds aren't putting the capital to maintain a stock at hideout markets isn't because of low trade volume.
      Having the capital to invest isn't going to do you any good if you aren't getting a return on investment. You aren't going to get a return on investment for having a wide variety of products, if noone is buying them. Low trade volume very much reflects how much people are willing to stock in any given place. It is a basic economic principal called Supply and Demand.



      hhiho wrote:

      You're making money on the time preference of the market. You're buying something quick that someone would want to sell quick, and in exchange you're the ne laying the money down and waiting while the player can just cash in. This isn't market manipulation.
      It is literally manipulation of the price-point to create more favorable outcomes for myself using my capital, for the sole purpose of generating more capital.

      hhiho wrote:

      That's called selling an item.
      At a price-point that I set myself.

      hhiho wrote:

      The removal of buying and selling order taxes would mean you'd be fighting 20 speculators at any attempt at moving a price of any good and prices would be more stable. So you're saying you buy items when they're in low demand and you sell them when they're in high demand. That's not a monopoly. That's not a malevolent market manipulation. That's not a scam, and on top of that can even be seen as a service to the market. Not to mention that none of that applies to a private guild hideout.

      Then the person with the most capital, and attention to the market wins out in the end. It would still end in a fixed price-point that most likely has a 1 silver difference between the buy and sell orders. As with no fee to create orders, buy and sell orders now have infinite adjustability. You don't have to have a monopoly to manipulate the market.

      At this point I am curious to what you think market manipulation is...
      .
      What I am doing is called Churning and Price-Fixing.

      Two known forms of market manipulation.


      You are correct that none of this applies in a private Guild Hideout, because there markets have a low throughput.

      Why does a small private guild needs a tax on their own NPC?

      As a silver sink measure, and to prevent people from adjusting their buy and sell orders constantly to put themselves at the "front of the line".
      Both of these hold true no matter what the scale of the market is.
      Guild Master of American Craftsman
      ~Discord gb5Xdpr~
      T8 Quarrier, Miner, Lumberjack, Skinner, Harvester, Fisher
    • Firstly, allow me to school you on one thing.

      The reason why you make money "price fixing" by crafting individual items and watching out the price fluctuation of an item is BECAUSE of the 5% transaction tax. Without that tax, one finance nerd would dump 100m on the market every day to make something ridiculous small like 100k/0.1% profit. Meaning, it would make no difference for a craftsman like you, who fulfills orders manually, whether you're selling at 3am or at lunch. You would NOT start making more money doing that without transaction taxes.

      What about this one finance nerd? Is he "price fixing"? Well, if he sets a price too low, his stock is quickly sold. If he sets the average price too high, he starts to pile up hard assets. So he's not really deciding the price, he's still going with the supply and demand, just making money by averaging out supply&demand throughout the day or week. You see, that's because he doesn't actually have a monopoly on supply, he's not a producer and others can produce and sell regardless of his activity, so he would start getting cut and lose liquidity by maintaining hard assets for too long if he tries to put prices too high.

      >What I am doing is called Churning
      That's not what churning means.

      >Price fixing
      Only if you are in the USSR. Not really a thing in the free world.

      I would also like to add, this taxation DOES NOT function as a silver sink. For the same reason this taxation in the real world DOES NOT increase government income and is repudiated even by economists from the left. As I explained in my main post, a 5% transaction tax means that any activity that generates 105% return from a transaction is made impossible and thus not made. Just ask yourself, are road hideouts placing multi-million items in their hideouts to trade with each other when they feel like buying and dumping hundreds of thousands on the silver sink? Of COURSE not; the silver sink is just not used. The market is just a cabbage soup distribution tool.

      >to prevent people from adjusting their buy and sell orders constantly to put themselves at the "front of the line".

      That also doesn't apply to a private group that manages itself.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by hhiho ().