New attack timers: Is Albion territory pvp supposed to only be truly accessible to the unemployed?

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  • This really is a bizarre situation. As others have mentioned, this KILLS small guilds. Consider the following:

    1) Small guild has 10-15 players and typically play for 5 hours a day (we'll say 6pm-11pm).
    2) Small guild spends 3 weeks building their town up to T7
    3) Small guild sets their four attack windows at 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm
    4) Random guild wants to attack small guild's town for their T7 stuff.
    5) Random guild decides that the night before, they want to attack at the 7pm window
    6) Random guild grinds like crazy the night before to make sure they are prepared
    7) Someone in random guild decides to log in before work at 7am to set the attack window
    8 )Small guild has RL responsibilities and doesn't want to log in before walking out the door to work every day
    9) Small guild comes home from work at 5pm and goes "oh noes! we're going to get attacked in 2 hours!"

    As you can see, the attacking guild will likely have some type of advantage over the smaller guild, unless the smaller guild does not have a job, or decides they want to log into the game periodically throughout the day (who wants to do that?)
  • -@Bercilak threatened guilds using the timer exploit would not be included in future tests.
    -Despite that, we saw rampant use of the exploit by several guilds over the last 24 hours, causing tons of lost battles and lost territory.
    -Then the patch to fix the exploit also reduces the preparation barrier for attacks.

    Yeah, I'm tired and burned out. I'm even more confused.
    What's the game plan here?
  • Swordlord wrote:

    -@Bercilak threatened guilds using the timer exploit would not be included in future tests.
    -Despite that, we saw rampant use of the exploit by several guilds over the last 24 hours, causing tons of lost battles and lost territory.
    -Then the patch to fix the exploit also reduces the preparation barrier for attacks.

    Yeah, I'm tired and burned out. I'm even more confused.
    What's the game plan here?


    @Bercilak share with us your plans because if the timer is less than 24 hours and the defender cannot choose the time to defend i really don´t want a second job.

    Thanks
  • Hey guys!

    Sorry for the late reply, been quite the busy day at work as you can imagine.

    The 3 hour attack timer is for resource territories only, the core idea of these territory types is that they should be changing hands often and be more or less a great source for PvP, and they are the only way for guilds to "conquer their way through the world" since you are only able to attack your neighbors.

    We realize that 3 hour is a short notice, especially in contrast to the old system.

    But since the guilds themselves are able to set up the actual time-slots when they can get attacked I'm confident that guilds will adapt to it.

    And In my opinion the best with having a fast timer, is that guilds can easily schedule relatively fast meaningful fights and the more meaningful fights.

    So my hopes/goals are:
    • More meaningful GvG fights to happen
    • More accessibility to GvG fights for players
    • Make it harder for large guilds to maintain their hold on the world
      • The idea here is that large guilds can no longer feed their top 5 as they can be faced with several GvG fights in a more or less constant stream
    • Having Resource Territories (where you invest relatively little in and are in the most cases just a free source for resources) to be on the same GvG timer setting as base territories (which takes weeks to build up and tons of dedication) feels wrong their value to the players are completely disproportionate to each other

    And to insert my constant forum mantra:

    We are experimenting with stuff in Alphas, the exact balancing is never set in stone and we will go with whichever seems to work out the best, the only way we can find out is by testing, thank you for helping us out on that part
  • How in your example does this take into account the 24+ pieces of gear I will need to have ready to GvG every three hours x 4 fight slots.

    :mathimpossible:

    I understand where you are coming from.. But you really should hit K in game and look at the map. It's soon going to be a solid 5 flags across the entire map. While it might work good on paper I can absolutely assure you it fails in the game because I'm playing it. Take it for what you will..

    My experience with GvG is losing all our gear every fight because we were not on top to start and will never get on top. So the people on top never lose gear and the people on the bottom lose 24+ pieces a battle.
    Just a Goon nobody..
  • A very short timer will make it far far easier for large guilds to roll over small ones, so it's not going to do what you want. A guild of 100 is likely to have 5 elite pvp people ready to go at all times. A guild of 15 might not even have 5 online to click in even during their prime time unless they are the hardest of the hardcore. It's no contest.

    Just make bases 48 hours and resource territories 24 hours if you want bases to have a longer timer.

    If you're going to kill off the ability of small guilds to survive, the least you could do is make the territory fights much much larger so everyone who happens to be online from the 3-5 large guilds/alliances that own the map get to participate.

    This starts to take the design philosophy of the game in the direction of Wildstar kinds of hardcore, and I think many know how that turned out even after the serious backtracking when it crashed after a few months. AO even has an extra problem in that the current optimal strategy is basically a pyramid scheme where only 1-5% of people gets to really play what is this game's strength with everyone else feeding them. If these timers stay in, I'm probably not going play in the beta without some drastic changes to make anything except the 5v5 stuff more fun than the more specialized offerings from other games. Aside from the specific mix of 5v5 territory conflict aspect, AO currently offers nothing over UO, EVE or any moba. If I can't participate in the territory conflict without it running my life, and no other kind of content is offered that isn't "grind resources so other people can have the fun" there's not a point to me playing. I'm not going to dedicate my AO gaming life to playing AO solely for someone else's sake.
  • Guys,

    just so everyone understands

    It is 3 hours for resource territories
    And still 12 hours for normal territories where you have all your buildings!

    It has been 6 hours some time before!

    As Empa said the idea behind is to have more often fights for resource territories which dont hurt you when you are loosing them.
    Happy to increase it a bit to 6 again, but the idea is to have short timers for these events, so you can have a fight today if your guild is up to something.

    Kr,
    Stefan
  • What will I wear to these fights?

    Edit: The only way this will ever work is if you don't lose gear in GvG. You don't drop it, and it doesn't take repair damage. We have been attacked something like 6 times in the past two days. So that is 24 items of gear x 6 = 144 pieces of gear I've gone through. Now 144 x 5 players = 720 items of gear. Please explain how we craft and store 720 items of gear in 2 days time? This is why we can't even defend anything. We seriously have nothing to wear.
    Just a Goon nobody..

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Forge ().

  • Bercilak I am looking at your and Empa's replies and all I feel is like I am looking at is that Wildstar raid attunement picture.

    This is (only a little hyperbolically) what it feels like is in the way of fun 5v5 fights right now, and now you're telling me I have to do it at certain times that other people dictate that I have to check for several times per day or I might have to start over at halfway to level cap:
    ( full resolution link: i.imgur.com/E0kkQqO.jpg )


    After that last one is when you can begin the endgame raid content in Wildstar.

    I don't think that it's too much of a bone to ask that I at least get to do this somewhat on my terms.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Suzera ().

  • Empa wrote:

    Hey guys!

    Sorry for the late reply, been quite the busy day at work as you can imagine.

    The 3 hour attack timer is for resource territories only, the core idea of these territory types is that they should be changing hands often and be more or less a great source for PvP, and they are the only way for guilds to "conquer their way through the world" since you are only able to attack your neighbors.

    We realize that 3 hour is a short notice, especially in contrast to the old system.

    But since the guilds themselves are able to set up the actual time-slots when they can get attacked I'm confident that guilds will adapt to it.

    And In my opinion the best with having a fast timer, is that guilds can easily schedule relatively fast meaningful fights and the more meaningful fights.

    So my hopes/goals are:
    • More meaningful GvG fights to happen
    • More accessibility to GvG fights for players
    • Make it harder for large guilds to maintain their hold on the world
      • The idea here is that large guilds can no longer feed their top 5 as they can be faced with several GvG fights in a more or less constant stream
    • Having Resource Territories (where you invest relatively little in and are in the most cases just a free source for resources) to be on the same GvG timer setting as base territories (which takes weeks to build up and tons of dedication) feels wrong their value to the players are completely disproportionate to each other

    And to insert my constant forum mantra:

    We are experimenting with stuff in Alphas, the exact balancing is never set in stone and we will go with whichever seems to work out the best, the only way we can find out is by testing, thank you for helping us out on that part


    @Empa I have a massive amount of respect for what you do and the time you take theorycrafting and making sure design choices have a sound philosophy, but I don't feel like you should create content by destabilizing regions that people spend dozens or hundreds of man hours to take and develop.

    I understand the need for a 3 hour timer on resource plots, but those plots are often the first (in the case of cities) only line of defense against attacks on core holdings, and people still (in the case of farms) spend an enormous amount of time and effort developing them.

    Respectfully, if you want to create more dynamic content, new systems should be made to do so, not damaging the current core mechanics for alliance function and holdings. We can create new ways to make emergent content -- this isn't a good one, IMO.

    If you want to create a lot of emotional attachment, support, and vested interest, Territories of all types should be hard to take, hard to develop, take a lot of effort, but reap enormous benefits. playing merry-go-round on resource plots seems rather vapid and meaningless, don't you think?

    Thinks like forests, mines, silver farms, you can make a case for. But actual farms? Especially with existing city mechanics with nary a defender bonus? (This relates to often the only way to hold NPC cities is to hold the plots that lattice to them as a buffer). There has to be a better way, sir.

    Let's create MORE ways to create MORE content and foster MORE engagement, not destabilize territory systems, which is going to create less attachment, and less care.

    A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule.
  • Bercilak wrote:

    Guys,

    just so everyone understands

    It is 3 hours for resource territories
    And still 12 hours for normal territories where you have all your buildings!

    It has been 6 hours some time before!

    As Empa said the idea behind is to have more often fights for resource territories which dont hurt you when you are loosing them.
    Happy to increase it a bit to 6 again, but the idea is to have short timers for these events, so you can have a fight today if your guild is up to something.

    Kr,
    Stefan


    Bercilak, I think it's about time we had the talk.
    You see, when a guild loves a territory very much, he saves up a bunch of money and promises to take care of it. This is extremely costly.
    If someone wants to take away his territory, he will fight for it. Losing that fight means losing all of his gear. This is very hard to recover from for a small guild, and makes him very sad.
    So you see, making it easier and faster to lose territory hurts small guilds because they have to put everything they have into it.