When is it Profitable to Build Shop in Personal Island?

    • When is it Profitable to Build Shop in Personal Island?

      Hi, I'm just wondering when is it more profitable to build my own shop than to use the city's shops. Sometimes it feels like the tax are just too high even with associate rates. But I really dont know if the cost to maintain my own shop will worth losing the return rate from city? Anybody willing to share their calculation? Thank you in advance
    • I find that an island station up to Tier 5 generally comes in handy. After that you should almost always use town shops for the best deal. A mill is always a good investment, as a T3 mill can process all the milk up to and including T8

      My rule of thumb is that if the sale price of the product is less than 7X the town fee it is more profitable to do the work on my island.

      Many players disagree and say always use the town facilities.
      Learn something new every day.
    • That's a tricky question as it depends on different factors.

      If you look at crafting at a normal crafting station, (under normal I would count all refining buildings and all gear crafting buildings) then a 50% tax does not equal 50% of the items worth, it's more like 5% which means that resource return would definitely be the stronger factor and make it worth crafting there.

      Now there are some other types of stations, cook, alchemist, mill, butcher. They each have a different break-even point in terms of food supply which results in their taxes often being much higher than other stations. Crafting normal dishes or potions can be worth but it depends a lot more on ingredient costs, most of the time it would still be worth though.

      Now to a special case, intermediate products like flour, bread, milk, alcohol are affected stronger by station taxes and I would always recommend to craft these on a personal island. Especially the mill is really cheap to set up as it just caps at tier 3, the cook can be kept at t4 for example to gain access to bread as well.

      Another special case for refining stations is that you have the option to transmute raw resources for a price. This price is also slightly increased by the station tax so if the refining stations in the city are too expensive and you are doing large quantities you can simply build one on your island to transmute your resources cheaper (will still cost food though)

      To maintain stations on an island you will just need to build them once and then feed them with a dish, their prefered dish will give them double the nutrition. Crafting items at these stations will use up crafting capacity (regenerates over time) and food. Island stations do not lose durability and don't need to be repaired.

      To find out the break-even point in terms of what tax you need for a certain station is something you will have to find out yourself and it can differ depending on what type of item gets crafted and how much the food cost you.

      Let me know if you have additional questions :)

      - Hellements
    • Sorry that i just managed to get myself to the forum again. and english is not my first language so it took a while for me to digest the information. lol

      Geofors wrote:

      I find that an island station up to Tier 5 generally comes in handy. After that you should almost always use town shops for the best deal. A mill is always a good investment, as a T3 mill can process all the milk up to and including T8

      My rule of thumb is that if the sale price of the product is less than 7X the town fee it is more profitable to do the work on my island.

      Many players disagree and say always use the town facilities.
      Thank you for this. I was thinking about building my own mill, and this nudge me to that direction. I will try to check on that 7x price difference the next time i craft

      Hellements wrote:

      That's a tricky question as it depends on different factors.

      If you look at crafting at a normal crafting station, (under normal I would count all refining buildings and all gear crafting buildings) then a 50% tax does not equal 50% of the items worth, it's more like 5% which means that resource return would definitely be the stronger factor and make it worth crafting there.

      Now there are some other types of stations, cook, alchemist, mill, butcher. They each have a different break-even point in terms of food supply which results in their taxes often being much higher than other stations. Crafting normal dishes or potions can be worth but it depends a lot more on ingredient costs, most of the time it would still be worth though.

      Now to a special case, intermediate products like flour, bread, milk, alcohol are affected stronger by station taxes and I would always recommend to craft these on a personal island. Especially the mill is really cheap to set up as it just caps at tier 3, the cook can be kept at t4 for example to gain access to bread as well.

      Another special case for refining stations is that you have the option to transmute raw resources for a price. This price is also slightly increased by the station tax so if the refining stations in the city are too expensive and you are doing large quantities you can simply build one on your island to transmute your resources cheaper (will still cost food though)

      To maintain stations on an island you will just need to build them once and then feed them with a dish, their prefered dish will give them double the nutrition. Crafting items at these stations will use up crafting capacity (regenerates over time) and food. Island stations do not lose durability and don't need to be repaired.

      To find out the break-even point in terms of what tax you need for a certain station is something you will have to find out yourself and it can differ depending on what type of item gets crafted and how much the food cost you.

      Let me know if you have additional questions :)

      - Hellements
      Thank you! valuable information. At the moment i gave up on crafting things that would require the BM for me to be able to make a good sell. Being a lone transporter is just too hard for a noob such a me XD. So i will be turning into food crafting and refining raw materials. And I havent look into the intermediate products because all i craft is just poison and pork omelette that doesnt use any of those. I like the idea of having different buildings in my island. Just for variety. lol. Thank you again
    • Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      Learn something new every day.
    • Geofors wrote:

      Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      You didnt factor in resource return rate
    • moking wrote:

      Geofors wrote:

      Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      You didnt factor in resource return rate
      What is the return rate for cape in the city? The panel doesnt show number in my screen i dont know why :/
    • moking wrote:

      Geofors wrote:

      Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      You didnt factor in resource return rate
      He does. The first example on his island is 20 capes versus the 24 capes he'd make in town (because of RR). Then he subtracts the fee from that. He didn't add the nutrition cost for using his own crafting station though. You either pay for fees, or you pay for nutrition.
      Demon Lord - UwU
      CANCEL PIDDLE
    • egotopia wrote:

      moking wrote:

      Geofors wrote:

      Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      You didnt factor in resource return rate.
      What is the return rate for cape in the city? The panel doesnt show number in my screen i dont know why :/
      @moking - Yes I did! That is why there ended up as 24 capes in the city rather than 20. The returns are used to make more capes.


      @egotopia - Return rate in cities is between 15% and 16% except for those few items that particular city specializes in where it's about 37%. When all returned resources are again put into crafting the final increase is nearer to 20% more produce as I show with the 4 extra (20% of 20 items = 4 items)


      @Piddle - You are correct but Generally that is much smaller than the city fees. In a thread I did a year or so ago, I actually did include it but it makes very little difference.










      Learn something new every day.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Geofors ().

    • Geofors wrote:

      egotopia wrote:

      moking wrote:

      Geofors wrote:

      Here is a real example of when it's sometimes more profitable to craft on an island, and also where the 7x number comes from.

      Had some excess 4.1 materials and decided to make 20 4.1 capes which are easy, rapid sellers. These are selling for 3198 at auction.

      Made on island, these sell for 63960 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 61082 income

      Made in town the final output is 24 capes selling for 76752 minus 3% tax and 1.5% listing fee = 73298 income (looks good here right?)

      However fee to craft them in town shop is 648 per times the 24 = 15552

      thus 73298 - 15552 = 57746 ( you lose 3336 by using town shop)

      To break even the fee per item would have had to be 533 or lower. and 3198/533 = 6 (Value/fee)

      If ratio is over 1/6 you lose money That's why I use the 7X rule to be sure.
      You didnt factor in resource return rate.
      What is the return rate for cape in the city? The panel doesnt show number in my screen i dont know why :/
      @moking - Yes I did! That is why there ended up as 24 capes in the city rather than 20. The returns are used to make more capes.

      @egotopia - Return rate in cities is between 15% and 16% except for those few items that particular city specializes in where it's about 37%. When all returned resources are again put into crafting the final increase is nearer to 20% more produce as I show with the 4 extra (20% of 20 items = 4 items)

      @Piddle - You are correct but Generally that is much smaller than the city fees. In a thread I did a year or so ago, I actually did include it but it makes very little difference.

      So is it safe for me to assume that if in city, for everything that the city does not have a bonus for, RR will be around 15%? While personal island 0%? Do you still have the link to your old thread please? I would like to take a peak. Thank you :D
    • I can't seem to find that post I mentioned, but here is a link that will give you some info on RR numbers in different situations. More importantly, if you bring up any city map with the N key, there is a small drop-down menu under the city info in upper right. This shows returns for all special refining and crafting in that city.

      wiki.albiononline.com/wiki/Resource_Return_Rate
      Learn something new every day.
    • Geofors wrote:

      I can't seem to find that post I mentioned, but here is a link that will give you some info on RR numbers in different situations. More importantly, if you bring up any city map with the N key, there is a small drop-down menu under the city info in upper right. This shows returns for all special refining and crafting in that city.

      wiki.albiononline.com/wiki/Resource_Return_Rate
      Thank you for this. I am aware of the different cities specialty bonus. I'm just not aware of the difference on non specialty RR bonus of cities compared to the island. But this gives me some base for me to calculate against for my original question
    • at the moment only the Mill is the worthy crafting shop to put on your personal island, as most mills on Caerleon are way over priced.

      example: I need to make milk to butter, it would cost me around 500k++ to turn all milk to butter, but if I just craft it from my island i just spend around 30k for the food, and this is just a difference of 47% return value in the city and 42% on my personal island.
    • HCEPositive wrote:

      at the moment only the Mill is the worthy crafting shop to put on your personal island, as most mills on Caerleon are way over priced.

      example: I need to make milk to butter, it would cost me around 500k++ to turn all milk to butter, but if I just craft it from my island i just spend around 30k for the food, and this is just a difference of 47% return value in the city and 42% on my personal island.
      Just last night i was thinking about this if it would be worth it to build shops that has no RR bonus (because i thought non specialty city and personal island has the same RR which is 0%. lol). But i think yes, i will proceed with the mill for now. Thank you for the tips

      counting for fee rates in city vs nutrition in island is just too much math for me. I didnt realize my question would require me to stare at numbers. lol
    • egotopia wrote:

      HCEPositive wrote:

      at the moment only the Mill is the worthy crafting shop to put on your personal island, as most mills on Caerleon are way over priced.

      example: I need to make milk to butter, it would cost me around 500k++ to turn all milk to butter, but if I just craft it from my island i just spend around 30k for the food, and this is just a difference of 47% return value in the city and 42% on my personal island.
      Just last night i was thinking about this if it would be worth it to build shops that has no RR bonus (because i thought non specialty city and personal island has the same RR which is 0%. lol). But i think yes, i will proceed with the mill for now. Thank you for the tips
      counting for fee rates in city vs nutrition in island is just too much math for me. I didnt realize my question would require me to stare at numbers. lol
      In general, it will "almost never" be a good idea to use island vs city, except on mill and butcher, it seems. The costs (both fixed and variable) are always marginal for city crafting vs the return rate (15% for non speciality).
    • Geofors wrote:

      @Gabumon We've covered that above and several times before. In actual numbers, it is "Often" better to do it on the island for T4 and most of T5. The old meme "Do it in City" is not an absolute at all.
      Your calculation does not take into account nutrition sadly, not repair/build costs wich eventually pile up, and it does not treat properly the return rates.
      I made the same operation with 250 4.1 capes. The price per cape is 2230 in mats (1350 in leather + 880 in cloth) + 420 fee (35% tax) = 2650 on city, with a total cost of 662.500. I only crafted the 250 and saved the extra mats (for reference, filled 62 tinker books). I still have resources for 37 capes, wich I could sell back or make more capes. I will use them again, In total I end up with 294 capes and 73 filled books, and payed a total of 123.480 silver in fees. In total I have 1.090.400 silver in goods. minus the fee: 966.920.
      The same operation (250 capes without the fee) will cost 557.500 and will fill 62 books, resulting in a 860.000 value in goods (Will also use about 1800 nutrition wich will cost about 3-4k to pay but negigible, yes).

      So, the diference between city plot (35% fee & 15% return rate) vs island plot (0% free & 0% return rate) does not look good for the island in my experiment. Even worse for island: I got pretty cheap materials: The more expensive materials get, the better it looks for city plot.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Gabumon ().

    • Cost of the building is a capital expense and is amortized. Also, I do not think island buildings suffer wear anymore as this particular building is still at 100% after 9 months of use so the food is the only expense.

      As for food:

      Just to complete the analysis, I repeated the crafting and noting the food level before starting. After crafting I fed the building Carrot Soup to return it to that level

      Soup x 5 at 337 per = 1885

      3336 - 1885 = 1451 It's still cheaper on the island
      Learn something new every day.
    • Geofors wrote:

      Cost of the building is a capital expense and is amortized. Also, I do not think island buildings suffer wear anymore as this particular building is still at 100% after 9 months of use so the food is the only expense.

      As for food:

      Just to complete the analysis, I repeated the crafting and noting the food level before starting. After crafting I fed the building Carrot Soup to return it to that level

      Soup x 5 at 337 per = 1885

      3336 - 1885 = 1451 It's still cheaper on the island
      Then again, why my calculation is so off of yours?