Why are Daggers so overtuned ?

    • Combat Balance

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    • Why are Daggers so overtuned ?

      Hey everyone !

      It's my second post here after my 2v2 hellgates improvement proposal few months ago (I'm really happy some love was given to this content, there are few things to do to make it perfect still, but it is already so refreshing !). I'm not writing about this, this time. I wanted to adress the issue that are daggers imo.

      Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of over powered stuff in Albion right now, like Bear Paws or merc jacket for example.
      Just to clarify, I play a lot of weapons, but not axes nor Daggers, and Daggers seem very overtuned.

      To begin with,

      - One handed dagge
      : This weapon dominated CDs for a long time and is still a very reliable weapon in 1v1 content. It allows uncanny stuff to happen, like being able to clean T6 Group dungeons alone with good ip, a thing that almost no other weapon can do.
      - Daggers pair : The recent buffs have made Daggers pair very obnoxious overall. It is a strong fighting build in 2v2s and 1v1s. It basically dominates 2v2s meta and is top tier in 1v1 for anyone who has specs in it, the burst of this weapon paired with the mobility of daggers is just too much in my opinion.
      - Bloodletter : Probably the most powerful dagger overall, the insane mobility with the execute E makes this weapon a real nightmare to face. It is playable AND GOOD in any content, open world, 2v2, 5v5, 10v10, 1v1, rats are using bloodletter, transporters are using bloodletter, pve wise it's okish... It's a lot for one weapon !!!
      - Black hands : Not nearly as much of a problem as Daggers pair or Bloodletter, but still a very strong weapon to use in CDs, not much to say.
      - Claws : One of the best ganking weapon in Albion's history by far. Lost a bit of its power with the anti cc to dismounted people buff, but still, a top tier choice when ganking big mounts, some months ago, claws were the definition of gankers and they remain one of the go to weapon in open world.
      - Deathgivers : They are once again a reliable choice in CDs, but also a good option for open world pvp, ganking and cgvg. They also are quite frustrating to go against because of the almost infinite invisibility.
      - last, the Bridled Fury : the least problematic by far. A cool weapon in ZvZ, playable in 10V10 but not that top tier.

      Overall, no other weapon tree can even come close to be as powerful as dagger's is. Axes are a bit overtuned right now, but some axes are still bad, like the battle axe or the infernal Scythe that are not that useful. In comparison, you can take the Frost weapon tree that is quite sad. Chillhowl, one hand frost and Permafrost are really nice weapons, but what about Icicle, Glacial and Hoarfrost for example ? They are not played much at all and are completely overshadowed by the first three in every aspect of the game (I don't play Frost neither). I don't call for SBI to destroy some of these daggers, but maybe to try and make some other weapons viable.

      I can think of two ways of nerfing Daggers and I am absolutely open to any other suggestions under my post.

      1- Nerf the new Q slot ability : I can understand that in the spirit of the "Rogue", daggers need some movement related abilities, but giving a small dash on a 5 sec cooldown is overtuned in my opinion. Not only it gives a gigantic advantage against every non-mobile classes, but also, it makes these weapons too good in a lot of content overall, like open world content or CDs. I thought of another Q slot ability to maybe replace this one :
      Q - Shadow strike : A direct blow to the enemy, using the damage done to sneak.
      Range : 1m
      Cast time : none
      Effect : Deals X dmg to the target. If the user is not invisible, grants him invisibility for 1.5 seconds. If the user was invisible when using Shadow Strike, deals 1,5X but the user is no longer invisible + Grants one assassin spirit stack
      Cooldown : Around 6-7 seconds.
      With this Q slot ability, daggers will still be slippery and sneaky as always, but will need to keep playing in close range in order to be so, They won't be able to run away and reset forever in order to achieve this.

      2- Make Daggers less tanky : You could keep this Q slot ability untouched if you possibly did that. Just as cryptcandle gives damage but reduces tankyness, why do we keep daggers, supposed to be assassins considering the lot of damage they have, as tanky as any other classes. You could even buff their damage a little again, but nerfing 5%/10% of their max hp ? Or just make them take 5 to 10% more damage ? That would suit the assassin playstyle, while almost guaranteeing their death when they are caught with cc, which is how a real assassin works in a game. And even if they take tanky items like plat armors, the nerf on their hp / tankyness would probably be enough to not feel one shotted by a bruiser/tank.

      I am open to any suggestion about what I said and any comments ! I just love Albion but seeing almost 1 on 3 players using Daggers is quite sad, same goes with axes but it's really just a Bear Paws problem overall.
      I hope someone in SBI will read this and hopefully leave a post ! Thanks ~
    • Many people maxed daggers out when they could clear group dungeons for easy fame. I still have friends that have spent so much time with the 1h dagger they still prefer to use it even when its, in my opinion, not the best choice anymore for its role. Its ability in PvE has been significantly diminished, as for your comment about nothing else in this game being able to run group dungeons solo your mistaken, there are a few decent options but basically over gearing with almost anything can clear group dungeon trash which is the main chunk of fame. Its just not as safe/easy as running solo dungeons that close behind you.

      Regarding the proposed change, assassin spirit charges are a double edged sword (and you gain them via the Q dash too), they increase damage taken which people seem to forget. The 1h dagger E damages its user over time, preventing them from hitting you results in them killing themselves.

      The problem your facing is more to do with damage scaling based off difference in IP, a difference of 100 item power can result in you taking 10% more damage and dealing 10% less. So in fights against an opponent that you have the IP advantage daggers do far less damage than if your fighting against someone with an IP advantage. Get hit by a max spec Trinity Spear or Crossbow and you will notice the same problems your facing against daggers. Also in a meta in which you self boost yourself the black hands are a direct counter due to their purge effect on the E, making them far more dangerous than the other daggers to higher hellgate teams.
    • I think you're mistaken, you seem to try to explain me game mechanics as if I was a beginner. I know what Assassin spirit charges do, I know how IP works and I know how 1h dagger's E works.

      I sadly disagree with you, about "over gearing" anything to run through T6 group dungeons, you can't, you just can't and even if you could, it wouldn't be as fast as 1h dagger or Great Axe 8.3.

      1h dagger's E can be interrupted by the user, when you play against 2mil+ infamy 1h dagger, they don't just run around with E activated taking 50% of their health as damage, they just cancel it and about assassin spirit charges, if I suggest Daggers being less tanky, it's because it's not taking enough damage rn in proportion with the pvp damage output they can get, regardless of assassin charges effect.

      I don't have any problem regarding IP difference, I know how it works and I just talk about basic pvp fights with same IP., Daggers are indeed too strong right now and too versatile.