Dagger pair

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    • Dagger pair

      Should we all start to play dagger pair? Are you planning on nerfing them soon?
      Corrupted dungeons, everyone using dagger pair, going in E and running away, half health down.
      Hellgates 2v2 everyone running either equilibrium staff or healer with dagger pairs.
      It's completely stupid, and I thought xbows where braindead, just stay away, get 3 charges, go in E get out, repeat, unless you just one shot your target.
      Ridiculous. Who the hell is "balancing" this game???

      When a weapon is either unplayable, or way too overpowered so you can't properly nerf it or buff it to be considered balanced, it's time for a rework!!!!!

    • kheeta wrote:

      Guys rly?
      Dagger pair is hardest dissbalanced weapon for you?
      Not paws/bolts/curse/bh/frost/reg bow?
      Rly?
      Right now, after the recent changes, yes, shit ton of damage, huge range for a melee finisher, insanely low cd, not hard to land at all combo.

      Paws have insane mobility but the damage is ok. The biggest problem I find is rats abusing that mobility+AOE in corrupted dungeons.

      Bolts are the most braindead weapon, already made a post on xbows in general.

      Curse is the easiest weapon to counter right now. (guardian helmet, hunter hood, cleric robe, assassin shoes, etc)

      Black hands doesn't hit as hard as dagger pair, and the E is bugged AF, but it would make sense to lower the damage a bit. Or take away the purge.

      Frost has little to no damage, every skill has casting time, and nails you to the floor, it's the most cape dependant weapon in game, you can't make a single mistake playing frost or you are dead. I'd call it balanced.

      Regular bow dies instantly against mage robes, hunter hoods, or any reflect, you can also kite it easily until the charges are over.

    • Clasics wrote:

      kheeta wrote:

      Guys rly?
      Dagger pair is hardest dissbalanced weapon for you?
      Not paws/bolts/curse/bh/frost/reg bow?
      Rly?
      Right now, after the recent changes, yes, shit ton of damage, huge range for a melee finisher, insanely low cd, not hard to land at all combo.
      Paws have insane mobility but the damage is ok. The biggest problem I find is rats abusing that mobility+AOE in corrupted dungeons.

      Bolts are the most braindead weapon, already made a post on xbows in general.

      Curse is the easiest weapon to counter right now. (guardian helmet, hunter hood, cleric robe, assassin shoes, etc)

      Black hands doesn't hit as hard as dagger pair, and the E is bugged AF, but it would make sense to lower the damage a bit. Or take away the purge.

      Frost has little to no damage, every skill has casting time, and nails you to the floor, it's the most cape dependant weapon in game, you can't make a single mistake playing frost or you are dead. I'd call it balanced.

      Regular bow dies instantly against mage robes, hunter hoods, or any reflect, you can also kite it easily until the charges are over.
      "huge range"... its range is similar to a melee basic atack. I agree about the CD, must be something like 20 seconds.

    • If people are sheeps dont blaim SBI.

      1. Double dagger isn't a thing in corrupted cause its easy to counter if u KNOW HOW TO. (They use invi jacket as bait, so they don't had defensives).

      2. IN 2s YOU CAN PLAY:
      Healer comp:
      Healer Pike
      Healer DDager
      Healer Frost (Chillh.)
      Healer DeathG.
      Healer Sword
      Healer Claymore (Not too good)

      And some others but not to good comps.
      Against SOB (Staff of Balance) you HAD TO USE RESIST/GIGA POT AT THE START. THATS ALL THE COUNTER LMAO. Don't clump with ur healer or dps and easy, u counter a SOB oneshot build.
      Actually mage robe and any cowl on boop its 100% counter of a 1handed dagger SOB. Healer is the most broken meta of all times so don't cry if there is something that can "easily" counter healer.

      Oneshot builds (The only thing u can play apart of healer, bcause u can't play consistent damage without healer)

      - Tombhammer with Sleep W and Demon helmet + Big claper
      - SOB + Big claper (1handed dagger or chillhowl are meta, but there is more High dps builds)
      - Spirithunter + Grailsekker or Soulschyte.
      - Two 1handed maces with caerleon cape. (Dont clamp and easy counter to this build)
      - Mace + Blackhands.

      And healers will have more WR if they play fine, just learn how to play....

      PD: Instead of wearing mage robe u can wear Ava Plate Helmet and PURGE/CLEANSE Double dagger always. If the Ddager use Q1 the healer can cleanse those charges too. :)

    • The thing is not in E spell. It's ok to have a huge damage weapon in the game. The thing is that in Albion such damage dealers can have a lot of mobility bursts.
      Chain blinks to the enemy, Q can add mobility, shadow blade needs some skill to hit it, but with that fly speed, it is not so difficult and if you can - it is a blink through all the screen and a short stun. If you have missed something - Chain, or blade can be used on spy mobs(traps, etc) and work as a blink to escape.

      That's what's wrong with all the daggers, I think.
      Mad damage in combo with mad mobility. The same sh*t as quarterstaffs(huge CC + high mobility), frost, etc.

    • Clasics wrote:

      kheeta wrote:

      Guys rly?
      Dagger pair is hardest dissbalanced weapon for you?
      Not paws/bolts/curse/bh/frost/reg bow?
      Rly?
      Right now, after the recent changes, yes, shit ton of damage, huge range for a melee finisher, insanely low cd, not hard to land at all combo.
      Paws have insane mobility but the damage is ok. The biggest problem I find is rats abusing that mobility+AOE in corrupted dungeons.

      Bolts are the most braindead weapon, already made a post on xbows in general.

      Curse is the easiest weapon to counter right now. (guardian helmet, hunter hood, cleric robe, assassin shoes, etc)

      Black hands doesn't hit as hard as dagger pair, and the E is bugged AF, but it would make sense to lower the damage a bit. Or take away the purge.

      Frost has little to no damage, every skill has casting time, and nails you to the floor, it's the most cape dependant weapon in game, you can't make a single mistake playing frost or you are dead. I'd call it balanced.

      Regular bow dies instantly against mage robes, hunter hoods, or any reflect, you can also kite it easily until the charges are over.
      One more newcomer tries to balance the game?
      Shhh... I’ll tell you the great secret
      The only one fix dagger pair had for last couple of years was lowering stand time AFTER casting E (what makes this weapon totally unplayable)
      All skills used in latest viable popular CD builds with dagger pair wasn’t changed for years
      The problem of CD meta builds and the reason why dagger pair is hard to play against is because nobody played dagger pair for real for long long time and all builds/meta items were created vs other popular builds/items
      Ones ppl would see the popularity of dagger pair in corrupted- meta would change a bit and that’s all

    • kheeta wrote:

      The only one fix dagger pair had for last couple of years was lowering stand time AFTER casting E (what makes this weapon totally unplayable)

      You completely missed them becoming borderline unreactable to I-Frames such as Assassin shoes, Royal shoes, Cleric cowl, etc.
      The only way to dodge an E with those items now is using blind, unreliable anticipation.
      And if the dagger player has more than 2 braincells they will simply wait for your Assassin shoes, or whatever and follow up with an E.

    • Hattenhair wrote:

      kheeta wrote:

      The only one fix dagger pair had for last couple of years was lowering stand time AFTER casting E (what makes this weapon totally unplayable)
      You completely missed them becoming borderline unreactable to I-Frames such as Assassin shoes, Royal shoes, Cleric cowl, etc.
      The only way to dodge an E with those items now is using blind, unreliable anticipation.
      And if the dagger player has more than 2 braincells they will simply wait for your Assassin shoes, or whatever and follow up with an E.
      That 0.1s cast time reduction made them unreactable to very obvious counters that would make the entire weapon completely useless making it unplayable in any form of content the game for years? Good. Sounds like people just need to get better if using I-Frames or come up with a new strategy like purge/cleanse/CC.

    • Acoustic wrote:

      That 0.1s cast time reduction made them unreactable to very obvious counters that would make the entire weapon completely useless making it unplayable in any form of content the game for years? Good. Sounds like people just need to get better if using I-Frames or
      come up with a new strategy like purge/cleanse/CC.
      Most used W with dagger pair is Shadow edge, which is considered a full I-Frame for some reason, so purge is out of the question.
      Cleanse still requires you to followup with an I-Frame, which is baitable, so why bother using 2 skills to counter just 1.

      As a side note doesn't the easy reactability of your weapon encourage the usage of baiting which increases combat depth?
      I have a related thread here, feel free to drop by: On the shift to predictive/rotational combat, over reactive.
      According to my personal experience, the sweetspot between "Too slow" and "Too fast" seems to be 0.4s - 0.45s.

      Tomperon wrote:

      lol... 0,1 seconds reacts. "I can react in 0,4s, but 0,3s is impossible"
      Go on and react to 0.1s casts then, nobody is stopping you, right?

    • Hattenhair wrote:

      Acoustic wrote:

      That 0.1s cast time reduction made them unreactable to very obvious counters that would make the entire weapon completely useless making it unplayable in any form of content the game for years? Good. Sounds like people just need to get better if using I-Frames or
      come up with a new strategy like purge/cleanse/CC.
      Most used W with dagger pair is Shadow edge, which is considered a full I-Frame for some reason, so purge is out of the question.Cleanse still requires you to followup with an I-Frame, which is baitable, so why bother using 2 skills to counter just 1.

      As a side note doesn't the easy reactability of your weapon encourage the usage of baiting which increases combat depth?
      I have a related thread here, feel free to drop by: On the shift to predictive/rotational combat, over reactive.
      According to my personal experience, the sweetspot between "Too slow" and "Too fast" seems to be 0.4s - 0.45s.
      Dagger pair is the weapon I wanted to use when I first started Albion years ago. I wanted it so badly to be a good weapon, but it's been unusable in any sort of content besides light ganking which Crossbow did a thousand times better. You would never, in under any circumstance, pick Dagger Pair for anything over the basic Crossbow. The cast time was too long and it was constantly interrupted, most often by Sacred Pulse in 2v2s. If 0.1 cast time suddenly made it overpowered, that says a lot about how much 0.1 seconds mattered. The weapon suddenly became harder to counter in every situation, and thus it's viability went up. Can it still be countered? Of course; but not nearly as easily which means it's more viable. You're angry you can't completely counter an entire build with one button press now (which you straight-up admit, even though their entire hotbar is revolving around landing one skill and that's apparently okay?) and might actually need to get better or come up with a new strategy?

      Dagger Pair doesn't just press E and instakill like a Crossbow. You have to have 3 stacks either on yourself or your opponent to deal that damage, you have to also deal with any kind of buff(s) you'd need to actually do enough damage for the weapon to be wroth using, on top of your positioning, the enemy's positioning, and any kind of abilities they might use to counter you. One of the easiest ways of beating Dagger Pair is just to watch for when they have 3 Stacks and expect them to E, to be predictive instead of being reactive. It isn't that hard.

      It's all or nothing. It's a poor build in the grand scheme of things that is still 100% counterable, it's just more difficult to. So few players used Dagger Pair before now, with the most Notable being Stabber who gravitated away from it because it was so unviable some time ago and only used it for kicks. I doubt the weapon is even remotely close to top tier now, just actually useable in some situations. That's good. The weapon should be dangerous. It should be powerful. It shouldn't be, "the worse version of the crossbow". I still haven't even had the time to jump back in, but all this crying is making me really happy. It's been years, I wonder if they'll even be viable for GvGs now since they'll be harder to counter plus now add a small healing debuff that would stack with Forbidden Stab I assume to waste the healer's abilities. Hundreds of hours spent on this weapon trying to do anything with it, and it's finally worth something? Thank god.

    • HIDKstr wrote:

      If people are sheeps dont blaim SBI.

      1. Double dagger isn't a thing in corrupted cause its easy to counter if u KNOW HOW TO. (They use invi jacket as bait, so they don't had defensives).

      2. IN 2s YOU CAN PLAY:
      Healer comp:
      Healer Pike
      Healer DDager
      Healer Frost (Chillh.)
      Healer DeathG.
      Healer Sword
      Healer Claymore (Not too good)

      And some others but not to good comps.
      Against SOB (Staff of Balance) you HAD TO USE RESIST/GIGA POT AT THE START. THATS ALL THE COUNTER LMAO. Don't clump with ur healer or dps and easy, u counter a SOB oneshot build.
      Actually mage robe and any cowl on boop its 100% counter of a 1handed dagger SOB. Healer is the most broken meta of all times so don't cry if there is something that can "easily" counter healer.

      Oneshot builds (The only thing u can play apart of healer, bcause u can't play consistent damage without healer)

      - Tombhammer with Sleep W and Demon helmet + Big claper
      - SOB + Big claper (1handed dagger or chillhowl are meta, but there is more High dps builds)
      - Spirithunter + Grailsekker or Soulschyte.
      - Two 1handed maces with caerleon cape. (Dont clamp and easy counter to this build)
      - Mace + Blackhands.

      And healers will have more WR if they play fine, just learn how to play....

      PD: Instead of wearing mage robe u can wear Ava Plate Helmet and PURGE/CLEANSE Double dagger always. If the Ddager use Q1 the healer can cleanse those charges too. :)
      Ok so i encounter a dagger pair user every 3 corrupted, and YouTube suddenly Is filled with new dagger pair vids, but since you are telling me Is not a thing i should what? Belive you and thats it?

      2. You sound like the only players you fight against are bots, who rush and throw every single skill they got at you as soon as they see you, guess you've never heard of kiting, baiting, fake engages, etc. Do you actually play or just focus on theroycrafting and going over different tactics with strangers on forums? Since you know how to counter every single thing perfectly you must be the king of albion pvp...

      And about the meta list. Showing me there are more weapons available, tells me this Is an mmorpg but in no way invalidates the original point beeing that dagger pair Is busted. It's like replying someone who complains about xbows by telling him "yo, you can play regular bows to" ...

    • kheeta wrote:

      Clasics wrote:

      kheeta wrote:

      Guys rly?
      Dagger pair is hardest dissbalanced weapon for you?
      Not paws/bolts/curse/bh/frost/reg bow?
      Rly?
      Right now, after the recent changes, yes, shit ton of damage, huge range for a melee finisher, insanely low cd, not hard to land at all combo.Paws have insane mobility but the damage is ok. The biggest problem I find is rats abusing that mobility+AOE in corrupted dungeons.

      Bolts are the most braindead weapon, already made a post on xbows in general.

      Curse is the easiest weapon to counter right now. (guardian helmet, hunter hood, cleric robe, assassin shoes, etc)

      Black hands doesn't hit as hard as dagger pair, and the E is bugged AF, but it would make sense to lower the damage a bit. Or take away the purge.

      Frost has little to no damage, every skill has casting time, and nails you to the floor, it's the most cape dependant weapon in game, you can't make a single mistake playing frost or you are dead. I'd call it balanced.

      Regular bow dies instantly against mage robes, hunter hoods, or any reflect, you can also kite it easily until the charges are over.
      One more newcomer tries to balance the game?Shhh... I’ll tell you the great secret
      The only one fix dagger pair had for last couple of years was lowering stand time AFTER casting E (what makes this weapon totally unplayable)
      All skills used in latest viable popular CD builds with dagger pair wasn’t changed for years
      The problem of CD meta builds and the reason why dagger pair is hard to play against is because nobody played dagger pair for real for long long time and all builds/meta items were created vs other popular builds/items
      Ones ppl would see the popularity of dagger pair in corrupted- meta would change a bit and that’s all
      You call me newcomer yet you talk before even reading the changes properly, go back to patch notes , take a good look at them and come back when you have some idea of the main topic please.

      Also something really funny "why dagger pair is hard to play against is because nobody played dagger pair for real for long long time"
      Do you know there is a weapon called deathgivers, and another one called black hands? And both weapons use the exact same 2 builds that dagger pairs are using right now? And both are heavily used un corrupted? Specially black hands ... But sure i'm the newcomer ...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Clasics ().

    • ImaDoki wrote:

      Just play dagger pair for yourself before making statements.... There are better ooptions.
      I did, in fact i've never used daggers before, except some bloodletter matches in arena back when i just started albion, i've won my first 5 corrupteds back to back, won 3 2v2 hg with a healer, and only lost one fight against a bearpaw user because i overcomitted to get the kill...

      Using cleric robe, cowl and assassin shoes all i did Is kite until 3 charges, go in, use poison, W and E, then boots and run away

      Whatsyour point?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Clasics ().

    • Acoustic wrote:

      Hattenhair wrote:

      Acoustic wrote:

      That 0.1s cast time reduction made them unreactable to very obvious counters that would make the entire weapon completely useless making it unplayable in any form of content the game for years? Good. Sounds like people just need to get better if using I-Frames or
      come up with a new strategy like purge/cleanse/CC.
      Most used W with dagger pair is Shadow edge, which is considered a full I-Frame for some reason, so purge is out of the question.Cleanse still requires you to followup with an I-Frame, which is baitable, so why bother using 2 skills to counter just 1.
      As a side note doesn't the easy reactability of your weapon encourage the usage of baiting which increases combat depth?
      I have a related thread here, feel free to drop by: On the shift to predictive/rotational combat, over reactive.
      According to my personal experience, the sweetspot between "Too slow" and "Too fast" seems to be 0.4s - 0.45s.
      Dagger pair is the weapon I wanted to use when I first started Albion years ago. I wanted it so badly to be a good weapon, but it's been unusable in any sort of content besides light ganking which Crossbow did a thousand times better. You would never, in under any circumstance, pick Dagger Pair for anything over the basic Crossbow. The cast time was too long and it was constantly interrupted, most often by Sacred Pulse in 2v2s. If 0.1 cast time suddenly made it overpowered, that says a lot about how much 0.1 seconds mattered. The weapon suddenly became harder to counter in every situation, and thus it's viability went up. Can it still be countered? Of course; but not nearly as easily which means it's more viable. You're angry you can't completely counter an entire build with one button press now (which you straight-up admit, even though their entire hotbar is revolving around landing one skill and that's apparently okay?) and might actually need to get better or come up with a new strategy?
      Dagger Pair doesn't just press E and instakill like a Crossbow. You have to have 3 stacks either on yourself or your opponent to deal that damage, you have to also deal with any kind of buff(s) you'd need to actually do enough damage for the weapon to be wroth using, on top of your positioning, the enemy's positioning, and any kind of abilities they might use to counter you. One of the easiest ways of beating Dagger Pair is just to watch for when they have 3 Stacks and expect them to E, to be predictive instead of being reactive. It isn't that hard.

      It's all or nothing. It's a poor build in the grand scheme of things that is still 100% counterable, it's just more difficult to. So few players used Dagger Pair before now, with the most Notable being Stabber who gravitated away from it because it was so unviable some time ago and only used it for kicks. I doubt the weapon is even remotely close to top tier now, just actually useable in some situations. That's good. The weapon should be dangerous. It should be powerful. It shouldn't be, "the worse version of the crossbow". I still haven't even had the time to jump back in, but all this crying is making me really happy. It's been years, I wonder if they'll even be viable for GvGs now since they'll be harder to counter plus now add a small healing debuff that would stack with Forbidden Stab I assume to waste the healer's abilities. Hundreds of hours spent on this weapon trying to do anything with it, and it's finally worth something? Thank god.
      What are you even talking about? You make no sense at all, every weapon out there has to know about positioning, counter ítems, builds, foe's cooldowns, most weapons use charges or some sort of buff, and every player must know how to react or prevent the most important dps skills the enemy has.

      That doesn't mean it's ok for a weapon to take away 75% of your total hp with a single blow, specially on a 15s cooldown.

      Because thats exactly what it does, it waits until it reaches 3 charges and it almost kills you with one blow. 15 seconds later he Will si it again, less with assasin hood.

      Warbow Is also a poor build on the grand scheme but you wouldn't like it if suddenly they buff their E to fly at 100km/h and hit for 3/4 your health.

      I understand you are a fan of the weapon set but if that's your mentality then every weapon should get a one shot skill that hits for 2k in a Split second, and no one should complain, just be predictive...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Clasics ().

    • Clasics wrote:

      Ok so i encounter a dagger pair user every 3 corrupted, and YouTube suddenly Is filled with new dagger pair vids, but since you are telling me Is not a thing i should what? Belive you and thats it?
      2. You sound like the only players you fight against are bots, who rush and throw every single skill they got at you as soon as they see you, guess you've never heard of kiting, baiting, fake engages, etc. Do you actually play or just focus on theroycrafting and going over different tactics with strangers on forums? Since you know how to counter every single thing perfectly you must be the king of albion pvp...

      And about the meta list. Showing me there are more weapons available, tells me this Is an mmorpg but in no way invalidates the original point beeing that dagger pair Is busted. It's like replying someone who complains about xbows by telling him "yo, you can play regular bows to" ...
      Its A THING BUT ITS NOT A META CHANGE OR SOMETHING. ITS ONLY OP IN 2S.
      U CAN
      1. AVOID W.
      2. USE RESIS
      3. USE DEFENSIVE; EX:
      - Cleric robe
      - Frost shield
      - Inferno shield
      - G. Helmet
      - Soldier Helmet
      - If u are a dagger, same W, so u match W's.
      - If u are a frost use W to iframe/cancel/avoid.
      - If u are a healer in 1v1 don't cry if they can at max got u to 10% HP.
      - 1Handed Mace can E the W.
      - If YOU ARE PLATE then doesn't give u a fk that dagger and u will counter easy.
      - Use assasin jacket
      - Purge the stacks
      - Wait to reset STACKS and then enter.

      NOW.
      If u had something like that.

      IF U SEE A FUCKING NAME TAG, AND THAT NAME TAG DISSAPEAR SINCE VERY VISUAL TO 0. ITS A FUCKING ASSASSIN JACKET BRO! WAIT 8 SECONDS! THEN HE WILL HAD 1 DEFESIVE LESS AND MOST PROBABLY HE WILL RESET HIS Q CHARGES. THEN PRESS UR F BUTTON AND KILL HIM; AND ROTATE UR DEFENSIVES. EZ.